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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Let me explain myself.
The reason for my post is that I am fed up with being politically corrected, everytime I make a comment on any subject.
The statement it is an honour to be homosexual was a poor choice of words, but you must realise that not every one wants to degrade the sex act.
It is my opinion that the statement was smutty I still think it was, ok only a few people out of possibly hundreds thought the smutt was good fun.
There are other sites for the smutty side ,I do not feel that it is required at this forum my opinion.
I have made the point that people do not post because of the pack attack method used yes by a chosen few, I would sujest you run a poll for one month on how people would like the site improved.
To attack one person is seen by an a lot of people.
Lastly people here are of all different interlecs that should be realised and taken on board.,
we have not all been to university lots have and lots have not, you must drop a few levels so that you can help those who call for help.
Finally i thank those who have offered a hand of help via email, ye im no different to every person on this earth, we all have some type of psychological problem, but im am aware of that.
Sexually im a healthy heterosexual guy with Bi tendencies, which I think every male is anyway.
I talk to lots of young people gay/str8/bi to me we are all the same hot blooded healthy people generally, yes you get the whores but hey that's life.
I will post again but I will leave it a while.
Marc yes I have had problems with your attitude, but I guess I will just have to live and let live.
David. All I ask is open your mind a little and appreciate that your intelligence level is high,
but relax and enjoy, and most of all let other people breath.
Its nothing to do with me but the smutt is enjoyable to read in the book section
Oh as for me My job is a project Engineer for an Electrical contractor., I handle jobs up to about £1 million pounds.
I have 2 children in there 20s, carry out presentations to large groups of people talking on the technical aspects of Fire alarm systems/Access control/ security etc.
so if I can help any please call.
Oh I do ware a mask some people may recognise me, don't you all ware one.
Thanks for Listening.:-/
life is to enjoy.
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Jack, its not just the thing about sex but comments you have made directed at certain people. It is like the comment you made about one of the young men here without realizing that two of them had a serious thing going. Of course one of the youguns responded and his responce wasnt nice. Even Timmy has pointed out that you have made comments that were intended to hurt or upset.
To my knowledge no-one has ever questioned your intelligence. You and I and everyone else here makes misstatements or errors, but hey thats normal. Personally I dont care what your oriintation is. That is your families business. I know you are proud of your children and you have a right to be. Im gay and I have no biological children but I have all the kids I have helped adjust and make it thru life when there was no-one else to turn to.
We all have problems, even the smartest and best of us. Lord knows I have had my share, but I discovered something. that it really helps to discuss those issues with someone not physically or emotionally attached. Someone who just wants to be a friend and help. You can take that help or leave it, but I think you will find that if you leave it the problem wont go away.
What you do is up to you. The ball is in your field. You cant make a comment like you did to Marc and not expect a responce. You can dislike me if you want, but Im hoping you will see the need to just talk things out with someone.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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My response is not directed to jack, but instead, the group as a whole.
as jack said...
>
> The reason for my post is that I am fed up with being politically corrected, everytime I make a comment on any subject.
>
I can't help but to agree with him. Don't get me wrong, i do like coming here and read the stories, check out the topics being discussed on the board, which to be honest, i have enjoyed reading a few topics over the past few weeks. Everybody is different and its interesting to read and learn different points of view about all kinds of sensitive topics.
However, not everybody is well instructed in the English language as some of the members on this board. The level of communication which is required here is far outrageous that it has always scared me to be an active member on many of the topics. Do you all talk like that in real life? Wouldn't it sound kind of awkward? I mean, i'm sure most people don't like to read college-essay-style responses. Not that is bad, but it does scare people when they can't express an opinion out of fear that it will be ripped apart if you are not on target with you are saying. Hence why i choice to stay in the background for many years.
Even typing this makes me feel weird. English is not my first language and i'm sorry if i'm not as clear as i would like to be. It doesn't hurt to ask if you are confused about something, instead of making judgements and anylizing every sentence i wrote. Unless someone here speaks spanish, then i would love to write this in Spanish where i can use fancy words and express myself in a level which would be more acceptable.
Before i hit summit...i would like to make some things clear.
1) I respect everybody here. Your opinion is as valid as anybody else's.
2) I realize i don't know many of you personally (this is another point that makes harder to judge what to say and not say. a lot of the regulars have contact outside the board -messanger, e-mail, even phone- which allows them to know each other better. as a result, its easy to get more personal and certain things would be considered ok. but that is another topic...no need to be discussed here please) and in no way, shape, or form am i attacting your character, belief system, or values. I'm just making a general observation and i realize i could be wrong. Nobody is perfect...right?
3) This is not addressed to one person in particular. I'm just stating an opinion to the group as a whole.
4) Lastly but not least. Don't take my words out of context. If you want to get personal and tell me something...e-mail me. My e-mail is correct and is the one i use frequently. Otherwise just state your opinion and tell us or me why you believe i might be wrong. There is always two sides to every story...let me hear yours.
I'm done. I'm late for work and i have to go. I really gave it some thought and it has been on my mind for a few days. Just wanted to get it out of my chest.
I hope it raises some eyebrows
;-D
P.S When i said i agree with jack... i agree with him in the part that i quoted. The rest is of his post is personal between him and the people he named.
[Updated on: Thu, 08 November 2007 21:00]
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The best way of achieving quiet recognition of the things you bring to the party, of offering help to others, and to receiving from people here whatever it is that you need is not to poke folk with sticks.
Where you are sure, or feel, that you have a legitimate grievance against people I would like to make the strong suggestion to you that you talk to them, directly, calmly, and with a willingness to hear why they feel they have a legitimate grievance against you.
Use email. Use it to "speak" to them and to ask how you and they might heal matters between you.
Be very clear. I am absolutely not saying that "they" or "you" are right. All I am saying is that there are hostile attitudes.
One of the best ways of approaching someone is to do as you have started: to reveal a little of yourself, the parts you are comfortable to reveal. Invest a little more of yourself and you may find it works wonders.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Grammar, spelling, and syntax are, exactly as you say, unimportant provided one can understand what is said or written. The problem is that, when things turn personal, they can get very personal.
That is when the simple "rules" at the head of the forum are needed the most.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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If this were a poll, my vote would be with Jack and M. I agree with everything you had to say too Timmy but it just doesn't seem to work that way here. Every time I post I feel I'm walking a tightrope. Maybe you should add spellcheck to the board and also say "Conservatives and Christians enter at your own risk or forever hold your peace".
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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There is a point where we have to trust people to behave as adults. I do not legislate, I rarely moderate. I think you fell foul (I really can't remember) of people who felt you might be evangelising - always wiser not to even if you weren't. Same with politics. My personal politics are right wing, but that doesn't sit well with being in an oppressed minority.
Europeans are unused to the very strange (and surely against George Washington's desires) deification of US presidents - usually men with money who like power.
Mostly this is what we make it. People tend to respond in kind. If we antagonise people will react against us, for example.
I'm not running a poll. Instead the answer is in everyone's hearts. We must improve ourselves.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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I was sooooooo not wanting to join this fray, but I have to agree with Uncle Jim. There have been many times I refused to post, because of the grief caused over a "word".
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I am coming back to the need to trust people to behave. Equally I don't think "not posting" is a real answer. It feels like you let yourself be "bullied away", which is not right either.
I can't monitor the place at all times, and, unlike a schoolyard, you can't sit just with your friends.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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You have a very valid point timmy. i agree with you also.
it would be nice if other posters were as sensible as you are in the way they address others. I'm not asking people change their way of doing things, it would an unreasonable thing to ask, but at least ask questions when in doubt, as oppose to just attacking with words.
An excellent example would be the God Hates Westboro Church thread. People have expressed their opinions in a civilized manor and i have enjoyed the back and forth discussion about politics, culture, etc. No harm in doing that.
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The hectoring over words (etc) has to start somewhere. There has to be a trigger. I think that trigger can be the way the poster "under attack" starts out - the attitude that appears to be displayed in their post. It can be very subtle but enough to annoy someone else.
Once annoyed it takes huge restraint to be able to respond pleasantly. The obvious thing is to go for the weakness. That's not what we're meant to be about.
But, if someone goes for your throat, it does well to remember that they cannot hurt you. All they can do is attack with words. So ignoring any attack is the fastest way of stopping it. That does not mean "roll over and play dead", it means decide which fights are worth fighting.
But it never means "cease posting", not ever.
However, what it does mean is to try to discover what sparked the row. You're right, people will not change everything about themselves, but they do have time to choose how they express themselves. There's nothing urgent about replying to a post, or about making a post, yet some posts are made with reckless haste or with odd attitudes.
We're a bunch of people. We've not met, most of us. In a room we'd be unlikely to like everyone else, they'd be unlikely to like us.
I was in a room a week ago with a cousin, who, among a room full of people, decided to lecture me (and all of us) about the word "fuck" and how it was the worst word in the world. She was long, loud, excessive, and looked foolish. I can't say that she is social company I would seek out"! And yet she is pleasant enough if you ignore (or is that cater for?) her sensibilities.
[Updated on: Fri, 09 November 2007 07:43]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Thank you for this post, Jack. Now I have a little better
understanding of who you are and where you are coming from.
Your comments reminded me of something I had mentioned in an
earlier post but, for some reason, didn't seem to generate
any responses. I have stated before that I won't steer a
person to this forum when they are hurting and looking for
answers. I am sorry to say that I believe there are those here
that look more closely at the manner of someone's posts
rather than the substance of that post. How many of the
timid youth that worked up courage to post here and ask for
help still remain? I don't know of a single one. There are
youth here, but of a stronger variety who are able to stand
up for themselves. The weaker ones, the hurting ones would
see their posts turned into battle grounds for people dotting
each other's "i"s and crossing one another's "t"s. It's almost
as though it's more important to prove ourselves right than
to reach out in love and support.
Sigh... I realize this is going to generate a number of
angry retorts. But I just wanted to give my honest opinion.
And I am not pointing at anyone specifically, I think it has
become a collective problem. And I want to state that I love
each and every one of you guys. I know we are all hurting and
lost souls in some manner or other.
[Updated on: Fri, 09 November 2007 18:38]
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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Paul,
In the years I've frequented this board, there have always been plenty of people who have come and gone. I was one of those myself; I posted once or twice and then didn't post again for a couple of years. I can say that I was not driven off by the arguments on-board, but by my own lack of self-confidence -- something that was only ever remedied when I talked to Timmy in person. You can't automatically assume that people would have stayed had conversation been restricted only to unlimited support. I know for a fact that, after the first few posts, I would not have stayed had one of the key purposes of this board not been to allow people to express opinions and have discussion in any depth based upon differing viewpoints. That is what makes it interesting.
I also know for a fact that some of the young people who have arrived here in the last twelve months or so were aliases for existing posters, or throwaway nicknames -- thus you may find that the reason that some of those nicknames appear to have vanished is that they have served their purpose. Not all, of course, but some. Remember that many of those who 'seem' strong on the board are not so in real life. Whereas some of those who only appear for a short time may (I only say 'may') have found a solution outside the board.
What counts as unnecessarily 'dotting the 'i's' and 'crossing the 't's' is largely subjective. It's immensely rude to criticise or correct someone for an inadvertent and irrelevant error, and this is something we should all bear in mind. However, there are several people here for whom language is a key interest -- not the individual words, necessarily, but the construction of a rational argument -- and it would be completely counter-productive to forbid them from discussion if it interests them and doesn't affect anyone else, even if a particular observer might judge their conversation pedantic and boring. The board is what it is because of the wide variety of viewpoints, the breadth of discussion, the wealth of backgrounds and so on -- if these were censored or reduced then this would have a knock-on effect on the vivacity and popularity of the board.
The difficulty, where it exists, is in judging who is prepared to participate, and not forcing anyone who doesn't want to take part into an unwanted argument. This means being particularly sensitive to those who are young or in need of help. But it's also important not to patronise people, and to limit conversation purely to support and love would mean doing that. If someone asks an intelligent question, they should get an intelligent answer.
David
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David ended his post with; "If someone asks an intelligent question, they should get an intelligent answer."
Whoever reads the question must decide if it is intelligent or not. If someone doesn't think it's an intelligent question, don't answer it. Let those that understand what the person is asking answer it. Just because someone doesn't like the way the question was written it doesn't mean it's not intelligent.
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Oh, just one more thing.
Paul said,
>It's almost as though it's more important to prove ourselves right than to reach out in love and support.
There are times for each, nor are they mutually exclusive. There would be no way for a discussion to proceed if every person automatically agreed with and supported everyone else's points. It would grind to a halt almost immediately. Any therapeutic effect that an individual might get through engaging with the conversation would then be lost.
Supporting someone often means challenging their position. The tone, the way something is said, is far more important than whether the words agree unreservedly with that person's point of view.
David
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Very well constructed answer. I know the people here are not bad people, but if all we got is words to read, at least there should be an affort to write in way that won't sound too personal (that's what e-mail is for), yet sound intelligent and clearly state your point and why you believe otherwise. But definately, i wouldnt like to see people being censored or limited as to what they can say. Is not what is all about, when that is exactly what makes this board so special.
again, thats my point of view.
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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Uncle Jim said,
>If someone doesn't think it's an intelligent question, don't answer it. Let those that understand what the person is asking answer it. Just because someone doesn't like the way the question was written it doesn't mean it's not intelligent.
Well, that means that if no-one understands the question, then no-one will answer. Wouldn't it be better for someone to ask for clarification?
Often the problem is not that no-one understands the question, but that someone misunderstands it!
David
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Thank you, M. I was a little worried it might sound a bit too much like a college essay! 
David
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hahahaha... trying to funny i see.
Really, i almost fell off my chair when i read it.
Well i'm off to work. late again . One of this days i swear i'll get fired.
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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But it's also important not to patronise people,
You have still missed the point, allow other people too have an opinion.
and if you do not agree, respect there comment, it is an opinion
who's right and who's wrong even you don't know.:-/
life is to enjoy.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Tou said he missed the point?
What is the point?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Jack,
In replying to Paul's post, I didn't say anything about the validity of opinions, except that the board is intended to allow people to express them. Any honest opinion is valid, and I don't contest the right of anyone to make theirs known for others to consider. That doesn't mean it can't be countered. For every opinion, there is, or at least can be, an opposite one. If you have the right to state yours, then I have the right to state mine -- it doesn't really matter who's right. Provided that the tone isn't irritable or combative, I don't see anything wrong with that.
David
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Hey David what ever, i have made my point.:-/
life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It never used to be like that. So it is up to those who have made it like that to change it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The bulk of this thread is about asking for clairification.
I'm asking for some now......
What is your point?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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jack wrote:
> ..allow other people too have an opinion. and if you do not agree, respect there comment, it is an opinion
Jack - I think this is the point you are trying to make and that others are failing to appreciate? That other people's opinion should not be trampled underfoot?
If it is, I most assuredly agree with you. If it isn't, please spell it out for us
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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That is the assumption I made when I posted my reply.
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Jack - I think this is the point you are trying to make and that others are failing to appreciate? That other people's opinion should not be trampled underfoot?
Thanks that is exactly correct. thanks for listening.
life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I agree with you completely. When someone takes the trouble to express an opinion here (or anywhere, but this is the "place" we are discussing) I believe we owe them the courtesy of respecting the fact that they have taken that trouble.
I do not expect to agree with every opinion expressed, and I certainly don't expect everyone else to.
If there is disagreement I expect it to be expressed as a discussion, without use of a large sledgehammer, without (much) oratory, and without hostility. I have not always found it easy to keep to my own rules, I have failed sometimes. But I try, and I expect others to try.
I do not like the "quick one liner put down" (for the avoidance of doubt this is not aimed at you in this discussion) since it causes hurt first and thought almost never. I fear I have used them myself.
I find the best weapon to use against rude people is careful and militant politeness. Sometimes the ruder they are the more polite and measured my tone will be. Perhaps that's an arrogance, but I try to lead by example instead of insist that folks "do it my way"
None of this should be taken to say "timmy says we should not have fun". There's far too little fun in the world.
I also hate "Political Correctness" with an abiding passion. As an example, I work with a black man who hails from Nigeria. He is black, happy to be black, proud to be black, and calls himself black. He despises those who try either to ignore his colour or call it something different. I would not dream of calling him any different, but it is his wishes that I respect, not some societal norm.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Quite disheartening, too. Of course one might say that it is a universal truth, so affirmations are not required, and it seems, somehow, wrong to ask for them now.
So perhaps you will listen to my opinion, which, as Jack says, you ought to respect, though are at liberty (my words now) to disagree with.
If we have got to a stage where we have upset one poster, then we have upset others who have not spoken out. That's not right. We need, individually, to change that.
That means that each of us needs to stand in the shoes of the person we are answering, and think what our answer may mean to them.
We do not have to like them. We just have to consider the effect we are likely to have on them, and to answer in a manner which will not upset them.
"But we may need to give them a message that is hard to hear"
Yes. "All those with mothers, one pace forwards. Jones, where do you think you are going!"
Or perhaps "Jones, I fear I have some bad news about your mother."
Which is better? not funnier, better.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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