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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 19:47] |
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I read that story.... It was not an easy read.... In a a lot of ways it hit much too close to home....
I don't regret reading it....
If you get his email, please forward it to me....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I have not heard from Jack for several years. He is, I think, a little older than I am, so it is possible that he has shuffled off this mortal coil and gone to join the host invisible.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Jack Rowan wrote four stories (that I know of) in the Nifty Archive. One, The Story of Tol, is a sequel to The Story of Tim. It is darker than the earlier story, with violence and non-consensuality, but I liked it just as much. Fundamentally, it is about redemption, one of my favorite themes.
In his comments at the end of The Story of Tim, Rowan says:
"... It's important to say this: I have no real experience of BDSM at all. Some people have been kind enough to say that I represent that life well and positively. If so, I'm honoured and gratified, but I make no claims of great insight into these things. This story is fiction. I have no desire to join the ranks of the BDSM wannabee gurus. Please, and this is important: don't do anything I say just because I said it. Find someone who really knows."
I found that remarkable. IMO, the stories have a ring of authenticity, a resonance. It seems to me that Rowan dug into his experience and perceptions to find insights and themes that are common to both his world and that of his characters.
I have not yet read his other two stories, which apparently do not deal with BDSM themes: Island Summer (in the gay/beginnings section of Nifty) and Jamie and Sam (in Nifty's gay/historical section). I just learned of them on a Google search a few minutes ago and plan to read them when I get some time.
All of the above stories seem to have been written in (or before) 2000, and they all give the same hotmail address for the author. In October 2002, a story called A Younger Orogeny by Mihangel, in which he acknowledged Jack Rowan's help with some research, was posted on IOMFATS. It seems a bit of a long shot, but perhaps Mihangel has a more recent address for him.
peter
[Updated on: Mon, 26 November 2007 00:34]
"Tu non altro che il canto avrai del figlio, o materna mia terra..."
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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 19:47] |
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ChowanFarmBoy
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 93
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First, I'm not surprised his email doesn't work. He's probably in prison where he belongs. If you can think shit like this, and write it, then you're a half-step away from actually doing it.
Just how flaked out are you older dudes on here? Do you really believe that a fourteen year old guy is going to drive with his mother, or his step-mother, or anybody else, dressed in nothing but skin-tight fawn colored Speedos? And of course he had to be the eye candy of all eye candy, and drop-dead gorgeous, and blond and blue-eyed. And the cretin had to have a nine inch long ultra thick dick. What's he drive, a twin diesel V8 with sixty inch tires?
Once you get past the cliches at the start the story is unsettling, sick, disgusting.
Oh, and the idiot mother or step-mother who knowingly literally gives the kid to the cretin to enjoy? You don't even want to know what I think should happen to her.
Lots of guys on here tried to talk Mattie out of getting into a similar situation out in San Diego. Well he went out there and spent one night with a similar cretin, and it nearly finished what little self-esteem he had, and he was hurt physically.
I wish you older men would get over the idea that teenagers are lusting and ravening to have sex with you. Trust me, it takes us through emotional and psychological hoops just to have sex with each other, and no teenager I know, male or female, would EVER even THINK about having sex with anybody much older than we are.
I don't believe in censorship, but if the average straight man happened to see this story, all his preconceptions about gay life and gay men would be reinforced a thousand fold. Perverts and pedophiles.
[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2007 01:55] |
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I don't see how you can correlate a story on someones website with real people.
Just because the story is not to your taste does not mean that it automaticly is to ours.
Nor does it's presence pidgeon hole us to the realm of perversion or pedophilia....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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ChowanFarmBoy
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 93
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Opinions are like assholes... everybody has one. I gave you mine; if you have "taste" for stories like this, you have a taste for shit.
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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 19:46] |
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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"Do you really believe ...?" Its FICTION Eldon.
"... teenagers are lusting and ravening to have sex with you." What a bunch of bullshit; you need to clean off your boots, farmboy.
You are quick to paint all of us older guys with one quick brush stroke, giving no consideration to the fact that we are each complex individuals. I hope that you're more intelligent then that; but your intolerance of others' opinions sure indicates otherwise.
JimB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Why on earth would a teenager lust after a tubby, wrinkly, past his prime older guy? Any of us who thinks that except in our wildest dreams is probably certifiable!
It is a story. So was Watership Down, Lolita, Harry potter, Shrek, Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Flies, Anything by Dickens or Shakespeare, Candide, Nice Girls Finish Last, Acid Temple Ball. And, while you have an absolute right to your opinion, and any man who does in real life what took place in this story with a 14 year old kid deserves the outcome you suggest, stories in the free world do not land you in prison.
This tale would not have been harmed in any way had the young boy been over the age of consent.
Relating this to Mattie and his lousy experience in this world is interesting, but incorrect. Mattie chose, as an adult, albeit a young adult, to ignore all the advice he was given. He had a free choice in doing that, and he made his own decision which was, with his hindsight and our foresight, incorrect.
He needs to know that he need not be embarrassed about that with any of us, and is perhaps even more welcome here than he was before, precisely because he made a free choice and was proven to be wrong.
Please do not rail against the people here as a generality in the way you have done. It's not very pleasant to read. If you are a young, slim blond, gorgeous hunk, I can tell you very clearly that I am likely to find you attractive. There's no harm in that. It happens often enough with heterosexual folk, too. But the probability of your finding me attractive in return is so remote as to be zero. Would I dream about the two of us together? Sure, why not? Would I ever think it would happen, even if we arranged to meet? Not at all. Would it be obvious I was drooling over you if we met? Sheer politeness would prevent it, though I can't promise about my subconcious.
The others may speak for themselves here, or not, as they wish
[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2007 13:35]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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First, I said I read it...
I never said that it was according to my tastes.
What I did say was that it hit close to home and that I would like to contact the author myself......
Nothing was mentioned as to the content of what I wanted to tell him.
Therefore, I must take offense at your tirade. It is uncalled for and uninformed.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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RichardG
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Getting started |
Location: UK
Registered: December 2007
Messages: 12
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This is my first post: like many debutants I have been lurking for a while to find the subject on which to open my mouth. Eldon's post gave me the stimulation.
After twenty five years of marriage, I divorced three years ago: the reasons for that are complex and have no place here. Since that time,however, I have rediscovered my sexual attraction to men which had lain dormant for most of my marriage. I find myself primarily attracted to men significantly younger than myself: whilst this may be something to do with pure aesthetics I also find myself more intellectually stimulated by younger men and find myself invigorated by their energy,enthusiasm, open-mindedness and curiosity which is in marked contrast to the attitudes and behaviour of my contemporaries. I have been blessed by two relationships with young men which gave me untold pleasure and new insights on life.I know for certain that the men concerned ( one of whom was in his late teens) learned a lot too.Both made the observation that they learned more from me than they could possibly do from a contemporary.
I recognise that so-called cross-generational relationships are not everyone's cup of tea and I certainly wouldn't dream of pursuing a young man who had not made his interest in older men apparent. ( For the uninitiated there are chat-rooms and even web-sites devoted to connecting older and younger). History and literature are full of examples of love between older and younger men. In the spirit of non-judgement, which is one of the best things about this site, you should not assume that all those who seek a relationship with someone younger is a pervert or a paedophile ( I have no interest in anyone under the age of consent and in practice prefer guys in their twenties). We are different: and just as we seek tolerance from those who don't share our attraction for the same sex, we should show tolerance for those who enjoy legal activities which are not the same as our own - so long as they do not act unreasonably to attract the unwilling.
I hope my grammar and punctuation pass the test of eagle-eyed.( If they don't I'm strong enough not to care.) I look forward to posting on a lighter note when I'm stimulated and, no doubt on other 'heavy' topics
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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First off......
Hullo....... I'm Marc.... Nice to meet u.... as to the post.....
I have to agree....
As long as there are no laws regarding age of consent being broken...... and all parties are into it......
Then I say let the good times roll......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I appreciate all you say. I was addressing Eldon's very specific item which suggested that old blokes often felt that teenagers might be attracted to them. As we know, it can happen, but it is not likely. And, if it does, the older body and face are unlikely to be the thing that causes the attraction.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hey Richard, Welcome. I can imagine that there may be younger guys who are attracted to older, so Im not saying that dont happen. I have a friend here on the forum (just friends) who is a lot older. He told me that most of the young guys in those chat rooms are gold diggers. So if (as an older gent) you dont lavish them with gifts and money, you dont get no loven. Ive also seen adds from Older men for younger ones and the add is full of $ signs. thats pretty obvious. Its kinda like the st8t guy who claims he got some free pussy. Trust me he paid for it, one way or another.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
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Welcome, Richard!
Like me, I'm sure you'll find some great friends here.
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I've read all the replies to you and still think you are mainly right about this. I had a lot to say about the Story of Tim which I put in another thread.
And it has nothing to do with sex.
Incidentally I felt strangely the same about Orson Scott Card; his early books such as Ender's Game were marvellous. Then I read another book - or part of it - I think it was called the Worthing Saga and I found it so distasteful (again, nothing to do with sex) that I stopped reading it and have never tried one of his books since. Maybe I'm squeamish but I agree with you, Eldon, that someone who can imagine and write about such things cannot be a friend of mine.
And I am 73 years old tomorrow.
Anthony
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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There's nothing wrong with finding something distasteful. I dislike smoking and find it a disgusting habit.
There's only a problem when someone passes judgement or tries to force their preference on another.
There are a lot of fetishes I don't understand (heterosexuality being one of them), but I'm hardly in a position to judge the tastes of others- the "mainstream" thinks homosexuality itself is distasteful and disgusting.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... whilst I accept the inherent validity of much that has been said in the replies to his post, some of the respondents give the impression that they have forgotten how it feels to be 17. Eldon's reaction was a feeling of revulsion which, on the facts, was entirely reasonable. Revulsion is a pretty strong emotion, and whist I accept that his blanket implication that all older posters are paedophiles was way over the top, on the overall evidence of his posts on this forum Eldon is intelligent, thoughtful and perceptive. But he is 17.
I don't subscribe to the view that wisdom comes with age - there are enough old fools around to demolish that hypothesis! - but age does bring self-understanding of a kind you simply can't possess at 17. You can't fully appreciate the way you will feel at 30, 40 or 50 until you actually reach those ages. Everyone is different, and there are plenty of exceptions to the norm, but for a large proportion of the male population the years between, say, 13 and 23, represent the peak of sexual attraction. Growing older does not change the essence of that attraction, but for most of us - as Timmy has already suggested - attraction and sexual ambition automatically diverge. So although teenagers remain sexually attracive to older men, that attraction is counterbalanced by a proper moral appreciation of the difference between fantasy and reality and, in most cases, by a real aversion to the concept of actual intergenerational sex with teenagers. If Eldon grows up as a normal adult, he will continue to find teenage hunks attractive, but that does not mean he will seek any sort of relationship with them - but until he is older, how can he be expected to appreciate that?
So it seems to me that his outburst was absolutely understandable. He is undeniably right in the comments in the second paragraph of his post; the scene-setting veers on the incredible side of improbable. He is also fully justified in drawing a comparison with Mattie's situation. OK, Mattie didn't take the advice offered to him, but he was unhappy, insecure and vulnerable, and thus susceptible to the influence of a predator.
There hasn't been very much research into the causes of the desire to dominate or to submit, but such evidence as is available suggests that both characteristics are wholly or primarily the result of environmental conditioning rather than genetic inheritance. Michael has already touched on this aspect; we are not born with the deire to hurt others, but many aspects of modern society push us in that direction.
I don't approve of censorship, and although I find BDSM distasteful I don't object to groups of consenting adults acting out their BDSM fantasies, but I do object in the strongest possible terms to the involvement of minors in such activities, precisely because they are susceptible to conditioning which may cause permanent psychological - not to mention physical - injury. For those who wish to do so, it isn't difficult to find BDSM sites and stories, but as I've said many times before and will no doubt say again, I do not think that 'The Story of Tim' can in any way be regarded as appropriate material on a site which purports to offer advice, support and guidance to young people.
But the atmosphere of mutual help and support which seems to have developed between Jonny, Eldon, Curtis and their contemporaries through this forum is something I admire greatly. I would hate to see any of them discouraged from staying with us and feeling free to speak their minds.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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No Message Body
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Welcome to the melting pot!
I don't know how long you have been lurking, but I'd hate you to feel that my periodic outbursts against intergenerational sex imply any criticism of your situation; my concerns relate wholly to relationships involving minors.
I accept entirely that there are males who are attracted to older males. I also accept that there are some minors who are similarly attracted, though probably far fewer than the stories at Nifty or similar sites would suggest! I even accept that there can be mutually supportive and fulfilling sexual relationships between adults and minors; I have known of two instances among my friends and acquaintances. The problem is that the number of such relationships is very small when compared to the extent of exploitation of minors by adults, so that legal prohibitions are essential.
But what I oppose is exploitation; I do wish the law and society in general showed more willingness to accept that there is black and there are shades of grey!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Dear Cossie,
Thank you very much. Perhaps now I'm 73 I'll be allowed to do all those things that were inappropriate when I was younger.
Thank you too for agreeing with Eldon and with me about the Story of Tim. I said a lot in another thread about it that I thought quite hard about but it didn't strike sparks or get a reply.
Love Anthony
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Cossie said:
>I accept entirely that there are males who are attracted to older males. I also accept that there are some minors who are similarly attracted...
I think it very likely that there are minors attracted to older males. But I wonder if it isn't more a case of the younger person lacking a male role model or father figure in his life and then being willing to accept sex as a means to have one? I think Eldon's revulsion towards the idea of sex with an older man is probably pretty universal. In which case the youngster would only be able to go beyond his natural revulsion if there were a benefit he sees as more important. And since the youngster would seem to be entering into the relationship under his own free will, it becomes more difficult to recognize that it is an exploitive relationship. While it isn't really possible to know a youngster's true motives then it's just safer to prohibit this behavior under all circumstances. If the youngster truly is attracted to the older male, it will benefit him to reach an age of emotional maturity first. An adult role model should be exactly that - a role model.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but I think we're agreeing!
As I said in my previous post - though I admit my choice of words was a bit ambiguous - I think that legal prohibition of ALL adult-minor sexual relationships is essential because the vast majority of such relationships involve exploitation of the minor by the adult.
I think that your analysis of the background to apparently consensual cross-general relationships is fair and perceptive, and in all probability it accurately reflects the nature of almost all such relationships.
I said that I was aware of two instances in which cross-generational relationships were apparently supportive and fulfilling for both parties. Both happened some years ago and both involved a boy in his mid-teens and a young adult; the age differences were seven years in one case and nine in the other. So far as I know, both boys were from apparently happy and stable two-parent families, and both had siblings with whom they were on good terms. Neither case developed into a lifetime relationship, but both lasted for a considerable time - one for seven or eight years, the other for rather longer. When the relationships ended, the 'boys' were in their early to mid twenties; one later married and has a family, the other has had a series of gay relationships. It follows from the above that in both cases the relationship was illegal when it started, but continued long after it became legal. Both 'boys', as adults, were emphatic in assuring friends and acquaintances that their relationships had begun, continued and ended entirely by mutual consent and that they had absolutely no regrets about the time spent together. I've given all these details simply to emphasise that these were not cases involving huge age differences, but they were nevertheless cross-generational. Despite being involved in a widespread gay community, I never heard of any other similar cases, and I suspect that these two relationships were very much the exception rather than the rule. I mentioned them simply to make the point that non-exploitational cross-generational relationships CAN happen. For my part, as a teenager my upper ceiling of attraction was around a couple of years above my own age; anyone older left me cold, though I have to confess that on a couple of occasions I did exactly as you suggest in your post, and suppressed my distaste in order to obtain something I wanted - namely, entry to a group which included someone younger who left me very, very hot!
That's the trouble with this subject; it's so complex that it's very hard to be brief! Still, I'd better explain what I meant by my comment about shades of grey. The whole issue of adult-child relationships is bogged down in misunderstanding, distortion and hysteria. Some of it is recent; demonisation of all males as potential predators is a development of the last quarter-century. Very much older is the emotive terminology about children 'losing their innocence', implying that normal childhood experimentation must necessarily involve guilt; that dates back at least a century and a half. Of course, the Victorian society of the mid-to-late nineteenth century was indulging in such pronouncements at a time when child-prostitution was commonplace and largely condoned as long as it was kept out of sight.
When looking for a reference in connection with a post I made a few days ago, I came across a law report (not a press report) relating to a case a year or two ago; I haven't been able to find it again tonight, but I'll keep trying and I'll post the link if and when I can track it down. It was a US case, but similar things happen elsewhere. The facts, to the best of my recollection, were as follows. A boy of eleven or twelve lived with his mother. A single male family friend lived nearby. One day, the boy spent the day at the friend's house helping with some chore or other; the friend provided the boy's meals. In the evening, the boy asked if he could stay the night (he testified that he had asked, and that the friend had made no such suggestion). The friend said that he was welcome, provided that his mother was agreeable; she duly gave permission. The friend made up his own bed for the boy and made a bed for himself in the living room. When the boy was ready for bed, the friend gave the boy a quick kiss on the cheek and a pat on the bottom, and sent him off to bed. There was no testimony, let alone evidence, to suggest that anything else happened; the only point on which the testimony of the boy and the friend differed was that the boy said that the quick kiss was on his neck rather than his cheek. For whatever reason - the report was silent on the point - the boy mentioned the kiss and the pat to his mother when he went home. His mother called the authorities, claiming that her son has been assaulted and traumatised - though the report does't refer to any evidence of trauma, nor - apparently - did the child complain in evidednce of anything more than 'being uncomfortable'. That's all I know, because that's all that's in the report. What sentence would you expect? A metaphorical rap over the knuckles? Maybe even probation? Guess again; the sentence was two years' imprisonment.
This illustrates my problem. Even if there were a little more to the case that is evident from the report - and, in the nature of things, it could only be a little - this case was at the least serious end of the spectrum of child molestation. If the friend had smacked the boy's bottom because he had misbehaved, the boy might have been equally traumatised, and the friend might have been charged with assault - but without the paranoia which accompanies any mention of sexual misconduct I simply can't believe that the friend would have received a custodial sentence.
In the UK, it is a criminal offence to possess a nude photograph of a person under 18, even if that person is above the age of consent for sexual relations and actually supplies the photograph. It's difficult to find any logic there. And dozens of people have been convicted for possession of photographs or computer images of naked children involving no overt sexual content. I am neither condoning nor condemning possession of such images, but anyone so convicted is placed on the sex offenders register; theit personal details are published in the press and their lives are effectively destroyed. That does seem a bit extreme to me, considering that not all minor cases of actual sexual assault against a person under the age of consent result in custodial sentences.
Very sensibly, our local police force had dealt with a number of minor cases of possession by means of a police caution (which is recorded but is not made public). A local paper, using freedom of information rights, established the number of such cases (though not of course the names of those involved) and whipped up a frenzy of demands that all such cases should be dealt with by the Courts, which by implication should clap offenders in irons for ever.
Again, I find it hard to see why a sexual relationship between an 18-year-old and a 16-year-old is entirely lawful, but a relationship between a 17-year-old and a 15-year-old is a criminal offence. Yes, I agree entirely that there should be a total legal prohibition of sex between fully-grown adults and those under the age of consent, but should not the law take account of the age difference? I can see very little difference between the two examples mentioned above, but a world of difference between either of those cases and a relationship between a 14-year-old and a 28-year old - and, between these extremes, there will be shades of grey.
And, of course, whilst there is ample evidence that coercive or non-consensual underage sex may lead to severe psychological problems in later life, there is little or no evidence to show that the same is true of genuinely consensual sex - by which I simply mean that the younger party does not regard himself (or, for that matter, herself) as being coerced. UK courts hear a constant stream of cases involving adults who were coerced by authority figures as children - especially those who were in care or custodial accommodation at the time. By contrast, there are relatively few prosecutions involving youth leaders, who had much less opportunity to coerce. This, I'd suggest, is significant and merits proper academic research; if coercion is indeed a key factor in causing psychological damage, then although non-coercive cross-generational sex is and must remain a criminal offence, it should surely attract less severe penalties than coercive assault.
Sorry. Paul - I know I've rambled on too long, but this impinges on one of the many bees which reside permanently in my bonnet! I believe that laws should be just, that penalties should be firmly tied to the severity of the offence, and that both should be wholly divorced from any sort of influence by vigilante lobbying. Lobbying is fine, so long as it is based on proper research and real evidence, and not upon emotive supposition.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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