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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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This post is triggered by Nigel's understated response on Uncle Jim's thread; because of what I've just posted on that thread I thought I'd better start a new one.
I just want to issue a formal warning that anyone who wishes me 'Happy Holidays' or any similarly anodyne greeting exposes themselves to the risk of severe verbal attack!
In the UK - and presumably in the USA and in every other nominally Christian country - the season that the vast majority of the population is about to celebrate is CHRISTMAS.
Most of you know that I am not a believer in the Christian - or for that matter any other - religion. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue. Nor does the fact that in the European tradition the early Church hijacked Yule, the pre-Christian celebration of the Winter Solstice. What's important is that Christmas is a centuries-old part of our heritage. I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the commercial aspects of Christmas, but I love the decorations, the lights, the carols. I even love the traditional Midnight Mass of the Nativity; you don't need to believe in the detail to be moved by the ceremonial.
I don't object in the slightest to members of other religions and cultures celebrating their own festivals in their own way; I think that most people take a similar view. But I am absolutely opposed to the politically correct policy of appeasing non-Christians by de-Christianising the Christmas period. It is not merely wrong, it's crassly stupid. If our culture has a future in this increasingly confrontational world, we need to continue to celebrate our history and our folklore, and those who choose to live amongst us ought - no, must - be expected to treat our customs with every bit as much tolerance as they expect us to extend to theirs.
So, unless you are a member of a non-Christian religion, let's have no more of that 'Winter Festival' rubbish. It's time for 'Silent Night', 'O Come, All Ye Faithful' ... AND A MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ONE AND ALL!
Of course, you may not agree - but if so, don't just say no, say why!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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My Jewish friends wish me a happy Christmas. If I had the slightest wit to know when their celebrations were I would wish them their appropriate tidings then.
In fact all religions except the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses seem to be content to wish other people relevant tidings of their festivals. They are happy that others celebrate.
So, and without aiming this at all at Jim B, why did the USA, more allegedly christian than any part of the world except Vatican City, start this "Season's Greetings" rubbish?
And, if those are appropriate, why is that trash only issued at Christmas? Why not at easter, Eidh (sp?), Diwali, Hannukah (sp?)?
I have failed, miserably, to send Christmas cards this year, but I would never have sent a Coca Cola "holidays are coming" card.
I'd resolved, this year, not to mention this, but it got the better of me!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In the 70's, a group from the American Civil Liberties organization won a court decision which proved that the constitutionally guaranteed separation of church and state was violated when public grounds were used to display decorations of a specific religous nature... ie. Manger scenes, signs advocating Christmas.... things of that nature.
Also the same rules apply in schools, which are public grounds.
The nondescript dechristianizing of the holiday was a fair and acceptable compromise to the court decision.
Since that time however, furthur court decisions validated the notion that if public venues make place and space available to all religions then the requirement of common use was met and therefore Christmas decorations as well as 10 foot Menorah (sp), as well as signs denouncing the holidays, give everyone equal voice as well as standing.
As for the decision being rubbish.... Well, thats a matter of opinion.... But remember that the USA does not have an official state religion..... although some might argue the point....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I watched an excerpt from "Stripes" (I think that was the movie) about a bunch of misfits inducted into the US army. There is a point when the troop is going to fail its passing out parade. The alleged hero goves a speech about all things American. It is not unamerican - it can be viewed as highly US patriotic - but it explains a great deal.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Timmy wrote: >"So, and without aiming this at all at Jim B, why did the USA, more allegedly christian than any part of the world except Vatican City, start this "Season's Greetings" rubbish?"<
LOL, thanks for the invite Timmy. I suspect it started about the same time that our society became lawsuit crazy. It seems that there is hardly a Christmas season without at least one lawsuit attempting to dismantle some city's Christmas display. This has been going on for most, if not all, of my lifetime and is one of the sicknesses that pervades the US society. People here seem to think that they have a "right" not to be offended; lawyers see a chance to make money and/or fame; and, most unfortunately of all, judges allow and support it all.
On the other hand, perhaps it's simply laziness. Rather than take the time to really get to know our friends and neighbors, their respective religion and the name of its holiday we created a shortcut and invented the rubbish "Season's Greetings".
So with the exception of those of you who may be Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't believe in any holiday, I say:
Merry Christmas
Happy Hanukkah
Enjoyable Eid al-Adha
and for those I'm not knowledgeable of, Happy Holiday!!
JimB
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I object to having a season of peace and goodwill to all men; that implies that the rest of the time we don't do that.
I think that TRUTH is the greatest of the goods and that it is even greater than love.
I think that all religions are false and that most of them do untold harm by encouraging or supporting intolerant behaviour - and worse. Like actively trying to stop people using condoms to reduce the spread of aids.
George Bush and Tony Blair both invaded Iraq and both prayed about it! I think Francis Galton said the last word on prayer in his paper: "Statistical enquiries into the efficacy of prayer." which was written in 1872 - the year my house was built!
The fact that Tony Blair has just joined the Catholics, who condemn homosexual behaviour, having collected many of its exponents into their priesthood, just confirms my belief that he doesn't know what moral behaviour is. In fact anyone who delegates their duty to act morally, to a supposed God, has actually acted amorally.
And the infallible Pope blessed the Nazi war machine!
And so I think Cossie is far too tolerant of the Christian falsehoods, because it is part of a tradition he was brought up in (as I was).
Love to all
Anthony
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For almost twenty years a Muslim immigrant and prominent Labour Party politician has, together with other Muslims, been arranging Christmas celebration parties for single and lonely people in Oslo. He doesn't understand the sort of political correctness which asks us to skip our religious and folklore traditions. After all, Muslims appreciate their own right to celebrate their religious traditions in our country, and why shouldn't others be allowed to do the same? (There is one Christmas tradition, however, which he finds difficult to understand, the Christmas tree.)
Other religious leaders have voiced similar opinions, saying that religions have a common cause, to respect each other's different traditions. The teachers of the Pakistani madrassas are probably less tolerant, but I appreciate the positive attitudes voiced by Muslims here, which I hope will prevail and grow, and that we won't have repeats of stupid attempts by some newspapers to provoke anger among Muslims.
Therefore, I wish everyone here a Merry Christmas, peace on earth and good will toward (both gay and straight) men. And with reference to a different thread, I'm happy that the southerners will from now on be handing the sun back to us. Thank you!
As to political correctness, as far as I remember, among western nations only Britain has ever cancelled Christmas. Maybe some of you British gentlemen can enlighten us on that story?
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Anthony wrote:
>I object to having a season of peace and goodwill to all men; that implies that the rest of the time we don't do that.<
A parallel to this idea are the roadsigns which say "Thank you for driving carefully though our village." Besides the fact that they make an assumption which may not be true, they imply an invitation to drive recklessly off their patch.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Sat, 22 December 2007 22:22] |
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Tor wrote:
>As to political correctness, as far as I remember, among western nations only Britain has ever cancelled Christmas<
That was several hundred years ago when the Roundheads won the Civil War and the Puritans tried to put an end to people enjoying themselves ('having fun' is the modern phrase, something some of our teenagers believe is enshrined as their right in law under the Human Rights legislation), but Christmas was quickly re-instated after the people began to riot against the decision.
Cossie will know more about this than I do, but there was also an attempt in Scotland to cancel Christmas when MacTavish went out into his garden on Christmas Eve, fired off his shotgun, came back in and told his children that Father Christmas had committed suicide.
Hugs
N
[Updated on: Sun, 23 December 2007 09:29]
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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hi to every one.
I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want regarding religion.
I know why the concept developed and i know of at least one other on this site that knows what i mean.
different faiths are needed it is what makes the world go round.
I will not judge and i don't understand why people cant have there own opinions.
I will celebrate Christmas for the party not because of the Christian beleith which i cant accept as a person.
life is to enjoy.
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You are making me curious!
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I assumed that when you said that we'd cancelled Christmas, you meant that the modern politically correct brigade had cancelled it at some unspecified point in the past. So I responded accordingly. Then I saw Nigel's post, realised I was probably wrong, and cleared my post in case it caused confusion.
Happy Christmas, Tor, by the way!
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Methinks that in certain quarters I may have been misunderstood, but rather than embarking on a typically boring Cossie ramble, I'll reply briefly to each post which provokes me to comment.
Timmy.
I endorse what you say about your Jewish friends; the same is true of my Muslim friends - in fact, some of them even wish each other a Merry Christmas. Of course, they aren't buying in to Christianity, they are simply adopting the festival on the folklore level. Most of the local Muslim kids will have presents from Santa on Tuesday morning, but to them Santa is just a folk-hero, not a religious symbol.
Your point about Easter, etcetera, is absolutely valid. But not sending any Christmas Cards? Bah! Humbug!
Marc.
Thanks for that useful and illuminating explanation. There is a certain inexorable logic to the legal decisions, but whilst I have unreserved admiration for the founding fathers of the USA I'm pretty sure they would be less than happy about some aspects of the subsequent legal interpretation of the Constitution. But what was the American Civil Liberties Organisation trying to achieve? And where were they when President George Bush Senior kept trotting out his favourite phrase of 'One Nation under God'?
Your last sentence is particularly thought-provoking. England (the only part of the UK with an Established Church) has by a recent legal decision effectively killed off the offence of blasphemy, which means that the only remaining religiously-inspired legal restriction is the limitation of the permissible hours of Sunday trading by large retailers - and even there the support derives from trade unions at least as much as it derives from religious institutions. Yet the USA, without an Established Church, allows religion (or, specifically, the Christian religion) to invade so many aspects of life? I'm not being anti-American here; it really is a curious situation, and I don't see any simple explanation.
Jim B.
I think I'd have to agree that the structure of the US legal system has a lot to answer for, but I'm not at all sure why this should be so. We hear so much about 'the American Way'. Surely Christmas is part and parcel of the 'American Way' - an overwhelming majority of the immigrants to the USA were (at least nominally) Christian. However closely the American heart may adhere to the ideals of liberty and freedom, how can this possibly justify restriction of the freedom of the vast majority to protect a small minority from 'offence'?
Anthony.
Sorry, but I think you're missing my point. I'm happy with Hallowe'en because it's part of my heritage. I don't for a moment believe that evil spirits are abroad just because the following day is All Saints' Day (= All Hallows, thus Hallowe'en, or All Hallows Eve). I'm equally happy with Bonfire Night (for non-Brits, this is November 5, and celebrates the failure of a religiously-inspired plot to blow up Parliament) which I enjoy without for one moment considering the religious or political implications of the event. And so it is with Christmas - I love the Christmas Story (no longer taught in many of our schools) because it is a damn' good story, with a valid moral message. That doesn't mean that I buy into the whole Christian pantheon (or Trinity, if you want to be pedantic). I am well aware that Christianity tops the poll in terms of the number of deaths caused in the name of religion - but why should that prevent me from enjoying our traditional Christmas? Let's face it, Christmas is an amalgam of traditions. Mistletoe probably goes back a couple of millennia. Christmas Trees only became part of the British tradition as a result of the marriage of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, a century and a half ago, and Christmas Cards are of a broadly similar vintage. Holly is at least medieval and probably very much earler. But from these diverse origins, the traditional British Christmas evolved. Why on earth should I reject that simply because I don't subscribe to the Christian religion and disapprove of much of its history?
Nigel.
Strangely enough, I DO drive carefully through OUR village - but that doesn't apply to anyone else's village!
Tor.
The first part of your post has already been covered above.
The second part refers to what may be a peculiarly Britsh disease. When I began my erratic progress through the world of management, the problem was that personnel of undoubted technical ability were promoted into management positions for which they were woefully ill-equipped. After several well-publicised disasters, the focus changed, and many management positions were filled by people who could hold forth at length but who has little or no knowledge of the technical requirements of the job.
Perhaps that is why Britain is lumbered with so many loquacious idiots who find it impossible to develop any realistic concept of the future and who promote, - parrot-like, the unproven and unrealistic concepts of multiculturalism.
I may be wrong but, frankly, I doubt it!
To me, Christmas belongs on the same shelf as the Abbot's Bromley Horn Dancers, the Allendale Tar Barrels, Up Helly Aa and the Bacup Coconut Dancers - it's part of my heritage, and I love it.
Finally, Nigel.
Nigel, if you have any idea why you are customarily final, please let me know!
Your summary of English history is predictably corect!
Your summary of Scottish history is, equally predictably, incorrect. The aforementioned McTavish, being a Highlander (you may by now have noticed that I am a Lowlander!), was severely intellectually challenged. Having spent his childhood among shillalaghs and the like, McTavish was irredeemably committed to the notion that it was the big end that caused the damage. Inevitably, therefore, he shot himself in the foot, and Santa went upon his way unscathed.
Nevertheless, this scurrilous tale found some currency in urban Scotland, and when I was a lad, a tiny wee lad (shades of Northern Lights of Old Aberdeen) it was certainly true that Christmas was not a major celebration in Scotland. By then, I was living just across the English border, and I can well remember my dad taking me to the local pub on Christmas morning [I got a bag of crisps (=chips) and a glass of lemonade (=soda)], so that he could buy a copy of the 'Daily Record', a major Scottish newspaper, which was published on Christmas Day. Of course, the Scots celebrated Hogmanay (New Year's Eve to the uninitiated!) so nothing was published on New Year's Day for the perfectly logical reason that no-one was sufficiently sober to publish it!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Cossie: The second part refers to what may be a peculiarly Britsh disease.
I fear that the British disease has crossed the North Sea, and it is apparently similar to the avionic flu, since it prefers to travel by air. As you know, organisms which cause disease, often have the ability to spread far beyond where one saw their first breakouts, and like the flu virus the 'British disease' can mutate in order to present itself to as something unique and original. Thus it can cause a lot of damage, and apparently there seems to be no effective vaccine against it.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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ROFL I meant Uncle Jim. Took me ages to spot that! Sorry to Jims everywhere
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Cossie, my first reaction to your good question was "I wish I knew!" However, I think that I do know: in a word, selfishness.
JimB
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Re: Merry Christmas, everyone ... or else!!! 
