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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I have read carefully through Timmy's posts in another thread several times over the last two or three hours, but I must confess that I do not fully understand the point he seeks to make.
There is at least an implication that I may be acting in an intolerant way by not appreciating Marc's problems. Some posters may well feel that to be the case. Believe me, I am the last person likely to do that. I know very well how counterproductive it is to tell someone suffering from mental problems to 'pull themselves together'; I have struggled with mental illness in various forms for two-thirds of my life. Through my own experiences and the experiences of those with whom I have shared treatment, I have wide-ranging experience of the associated problems. I fully appreciate how such illnesses can alter personality or affect judgement. Unlike Marc, I was never traumatised by an attempt to 'cure' my homosexuality, but I do suffer from a phobic aversion as a result of something that was done to me as a child; this has had a significant and negative impact upon my adult life, so I do have some conception of what Marc has suffered.
What's more, I do care about Marc, and he knows that very well. It may not look that way, but I am actually trying to help him. It is manifestly clear to anyone reviewing the correspondence on this forum over the last two or three years or so that allowing the status quo to be maintained is NOT helping him. By his attitude, he is rapidly becoming his own worst enemy, and as a result his sense of isolation is increasing, rather than diminishing. I cannot make any claim to medico-psychological expertise other than what I have gleaned from my experiences at the receiving end, but in that capacity I have met several people who acted as Marc is acting, though none of them had his academic background. 'Getting stuck', and reacting by lashing out at others, is by no means an uncommon phenomenon, but it is not normally associated with those of higher intellectual capability - and Marc was once a Head of School in a State University, so he is clearly in that category. And, so far as I am aware, there is no suggestion that he is afflicted by Tourette's Syndrome.
So why might it be happening? Well, obviously I don't and can't know, but it seems not unreasonable to suggest that it stems from increasing introversion and isolation, and that isolation is obviously hurting Marc badly. Some of the posts he makes have no apparent purpose other than to attract sympathy, and I hate – really hate – to feel that someone is so unhappy. There is among those who post here a vast reservoir of love, support and concern. OK, no-one can wave a magic wand and make all the problems go away, but the knowledge that people really care about you – even if they live thousands of miles away – is powerfully therapeutic, and I know that this site, and the off-line friendship it has generated, has helped several people through very dark periods in their lives.
Marc probably needs help more than any of us, but he is unlikely to win the support and encouragement he needs for as long as he continues to be rude, aggressive and generally unpleasant to other posters. And, frankly, I do not believe that his behaviour is something outside his control. He displays the classic symptoms of someone in the most basic state of denial – the denial that anything is wrong with him. I can’t promise a wonderful life over the rainbow – no-one can – but I CAN promise that things can become much better than they are, but the first and essential step is to accept that something is wrong. The horror stories of mid-twentieth century treatments are a thing of the past; today there is a wide range of non-addictive medications which are, in the best sense of the words – life-enhancing. I know, because I consume vast amounts of the stuff!
In many ways I am unhappy about the need to make this post, but I feel that against the background of what has recently been said by others my motives are apt to be misunderstood. I was particularly disheartened by the implication that I might be ‘venting my spleen’ – something I would never dream of doing. I recognise that by expressing opinions which I am not in a position to prove leaves me open to accusations that I am wrong, as indeed I may be, but I would suggest that there is certainly a serious problem to be addressed. I’m sure that several posters would like to see the matter swept under the carpet, but experience here shows very clearly that the problem will simply recur again and again.
There is, however, one particular reason why I have adopted my present stand. Timmy has mentioned on a number of occasions that he feels that it is inappropriate for him to take any active part in encouraging posters to stay with the forum. I fully understand his point of view, but I think that the site is a marvellous resource, and – if it is to be successful – the forum in particular needs to generate sufficient traffic to make it lively and attractive. So, for almost three years, I have contacted many of the posters who have disappeared. Some I have managed to bring back, though predictably many have left simply because the novelty had worn off. All were asked what they liked or disliked about the site; the answers were surprisingly consistent. The best thing about the forum was the fact that it allowed every poster to be himself, free from the usual social inhibitions. The worst thing was Marc’s rudeness and aggression.
That worries me a lot. Now let me stress that I have never, ever suggested that Marc (the person) was not welcome here; in fact I have on several occasions said precisely the opposite, and have emphasised that as a first-day contributor his right to be here is greater than any of the other current regulars. With one exception – apart from the present exchanges which made it virtually impossible to avoid doing so to some extent – I have never even criticised Marc (the person). That exception was an occasion when, without naming me but clearly identifying me by innuendo, he accused me of attempting to form a sexual relationship with a younger poster. Would YOU have accepted that with equanimity?
But I have, often, criticised Marc’s attitude. Usually, I’ve been at the receiving end of his rudeness, but on a number of occasions I’ve joined in because unjustified, childish spite gets right up my nose, even when it comes from children.
So, to my mind, what it comes to is this: accept the status quo and risk further damage to a valuable internet resource, or require reasonable standards of behaviour from ALL posters. Given the choice between suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or taking up arms against a sea of troubles, I would always go for the latter; oppose, and do your damnedest to end them.
And finally, I do not seek endorsements from anyone; I’m a big boy now, and I can stand up for myself. But if you disagree with what I am doing – or at least am trying to do – please, please say so – and why – either on the board or by e-mailing me. If you make a pretence of neutrality, that is a criticism of both Marc and myself; please do us both the courtesy of saying WHY you think neutrality is an appropriate course.
Cossie.
Postscript – I apologise for failing to contribute to other current threads (the Sheik from Algiers was particularly tempting) but at the moment I find it hard to focus elsewhere.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Good evening Cossie.
Being perhaps one of the first -or not- to read your letter, which I must say, was very sad, I feel sad by the whole situation.
I don't even know what's going on myself, and I imagine it's a very difficult problem, whatever that is. I'll be blunt, or try to be anyway. I think that right now, everyone's really tense around what's happened. And personally, seeing a thread that was titled 'F*** IT, isn't very pleasant.
I'm pretty sure, hopefully, that I can agree with you, and say that I think everyone at this forum cares about Marc. Myself, being a emotional guy, I hate seeing people fighting. It makes me sad.
I can understand that Marc is in denial, even if he doesn't think so. It makes me angry and annoyed that this has continued to escalate to this level, but it also makes me very sad. Why is Marc so angry?
*Sigh*
We've all had troubles in our lives, so in that way we're all the same. But I think that if we don't adress what's going on, and always try to play the blame game, things wil get no where and no one will be friends anymore, and I don't want that.
Marc knows that he is always welcome here. I think he needs to clean up his act though. Marc's been mad at me before, as other people have, so I'm used to it I guess you could say.
I just want to say that I think this really needs to stop. It's annoying, and it's making things get way out of hand.
Sorry if I seem to ramble a bit in my post, as I don't know much of what's going on. I just wanted to post what I thought about this.
Love.
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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Cossie...here goes. I don't want to insult any one here so I will try my best to convey my own feelings about this matter. When I first found this wonderful place, I lurked around daily for about 2 or 3 years before working up the nerve to post. One of the major reasons for my waiting so long was reading the very heated posts that were laced with rudeness and petulance. These actually frightened me. By some strange coincedence, they were all instigated by Marc. I don't hate anybody, and I can sympathise with some of his problems, having a very traumatic young life myself. However, I never acted out in that manor for fear of making some one else feel bad. I believe in cutting people a little slack here and there but to let it continue does no help to any one. I wish always for peace and harmony. After all, the reason this place is here is to help others and to give them a place they feel that they can belong to.
I have made some very terrific friends here. I also have enjoyed the posts of the newer and younger crowd here. They add such a fresh and well educated ideas to this place. I for one would feel as if I've lost people special to all of us if they decided that this ugly matter was to much bullcrap to put up with.
I hope that this on going problem can be resolved peacefully. If it can't, I fear we will all lose out in the end. I know you did not ask for an endorsement but I don't disagree with you and I don't want to make any pretense of neutrality.
This post represents my feelings and they were not swayed by any one person. Only the events I have witnessed over the past few years.
I do not mean any one any harm but I am not that blind that I haven't seen the problem and would like to see it fixed.
aqua
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I am replying to everyone, really. Those who have contributed so far may or may not understand my point as written, but have it right as I hoped for.
One may deprecate a behaviour while helping the person showing the behaviour. The behaviour itself may even be the one major thing that needs help.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Agreed
aqua
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
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Agreed.
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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WEll I wasnt going to post anymore about this but here goes. I said what I did to Marc cause that is how he left me feeling. Marc has said things that are very insightful and helpful to a lot of guys but this childish attitude he takes is unbearable. Marc, you cant take your ball and go home cause the ball isnt yours to take. I guess I was being rude to you and for that IM sorry, but I wanted you to see how childish you sounded. I have a feeling you are probably a wonderful person and someone who would be the first to jump in and help. Well I want to help you. Look hard at what you say and see how it can be interpreted by others.
Im not sure I can explain myself like Cossie wants us to. I just know that you got some problems that need to be sorted out and there are several on this board who would help if you let them. I know one personaly who loves you and cares about you but has stayed out of this for fear that you would become angry with him. You might get angry with me but even still I will be your friend.
Cossie...I agree with what you had to say and hope I explained myself to your satisfaction. Roger has told me all about you (so here have a glass of Bell's Malt). I hope as I get older I can be as wise and you and him.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Hi
I shoot from the hip from time to time, sometimes when i reflect i realise wow that hurt.
So i will say sorry, i do know that some may find that hard.
But know one has been hurt just pride.
Marc you have upset me badly in the past but i let it all rest .
Your a good person
So come back and help out.
And Timmy yes i agree with you
life is to enjoy.
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dunfyn
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Getting started |
Registered: November 2005
Messages: 16
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Tim, I understand your point, but I am not so sure that letting anger to run its course will work in this particular case. Recent episode has followed well established and rather predictable pattern, and I don't know how reasonable it is to expect that such pattern would break after umpteenth occurrence.
Everyone has their own reasons to come here and post or just read. Some posters ask for help, some might only indirectly display their need, and as one can tell help is always offered in abundance. Obviously some people have tougher skin, or maybe, to say bluntly, care more about a person in need, so their help goes longer way. This is a personal decision how much you are willing to give or take, and I do not believe that it is fair to use some unsuspecting poster as a vehicle for providing therapeutic help to someone else, you might have two people in need of help afterwards. To clarify, both occurrences of 'you' in the last sentence were meant to be in general sence.
I must add that Cossie outlined a lot of things which were on my mind much better and more eloquently than I ever could at the beginning of this tread. Anyway this is my two cents.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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This whole area is complex.
If one would suffer by seeking to help another then one must pass by without offering help. This is self preservation, no more and no less. It is pragmatic.
If one receives unpleasant behaviour then one has eevry right to criticise it. But one must be adult enough to withdraw if one is in danger fo getting drawn in to a slanging match.
It is obvious to all when a behaviour is unacceptable. It is how we deal with it ourselves and how we move forward that is important.
There is no solution, per se. There is just time.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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