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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I hope I'm wrong, but there is an absence of some people posting that seems to happen when another poster starts to post. If this is a coincidence, that's fine. If it's a boycott, well that really isn't too nice.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hey Timmy, I hope it is coincidence. It is, at least on my part. I usually post only when I see something I feel I can contribute to with a reasonable answer. As far as I am concerned, everything is cool.
aqua
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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That implies some collusion amoungst board participants, which I doubt is taking place. It is more likely people being busy and/or not finding the topics of interest. In addition, you have to consider the recent problems that took place here and that more time is needed for normalcy to return. Unfortunately, said problems may have caused some to decide to no longer participate or reduce their participation.
Rather than a boycott I think it is a personal matter and you may get more response through direct email contact with those you are thinking of.
JimB
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I'm not posting at present because I haven't anything particular to say. No other reason. Next week I'm off to Tenerife to maximise on some vitamin D and hopefully to do some boy watching.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... since the 'other poster' is clearly Marc, and as I am equally clearly one of the people not posting -
I am in friendly and regular e-mail contact with Marc several times a week, and the fact that I am not posting has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Marc has returned to the forum. I know very well that this forum is very important to Marc, and I am glad that he is back, and in a considerably happier frame of mind.
I also know of at least three other posters who have been absent for several days, but my understanding is that they are fully committed elsewhere and that, again, their absence has nothing to do with Marc's return.
To suggest a 'boycott' implies that those not posting are being deliberately and constructively hurtful, even if the accusation is veiled and unspecific. Surely JimB is right; this is an issue which should be raised directly with those thought to be involved, it should not be aired on the forum.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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When others on the forum notice this apparent trend, and when they ask me about it, then it concerns me sufficiently to raise it here.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Think of this, if second thoughts came before first thought how much wiser we would all be. But you do not get a second chance to make a first impression...
" Taken From : Life - composed by M K Dobison "
This is one of many things that has always been close to me and I try to live by this all I can. I think that there still may be a lot of unresolved issues with individuals, but there is not much that we can do about that.
It will take time, of this I have no doubt, but I really do hope that it will pass. " A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link... "
Luvies To all
ME;-D
-
Attachment: smurfs.jpg
(Size: 9.24KB, Downloaded 406 times)
"And so the lion fell in love with the Lamb"
"What a stupid Lamb"
"What a sick, masochistic lion"
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Hey behave.
Lets get on and not be trivial please,
Life is too short
no winers and no losers.
life is to enjoy.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I hear what Jack says, but it isn't necessarily trivial for those at whom the finger is being pointed - and I am NOT thinking of myself.
Timmy, what you are effectively saying is this -
'Others on the forum' - shadowy figures of whose existence there is no evidence since they chose to preserve their anonymity by contacting you instead of raising the matter openly themselves - suggest that there may be some kind of boycott.
Without making any attempt to establish whether there is any basis for that suggestion - and, so far as I can establish, there is in fact no basis whatsoever - it is considered justifiable to raise the matter 'officially' as webmaster of the forum. By so doing, regardless of any caveat in the words used, you point the finger of suspicion and innuendo at every regular poster who has not posted for a few days.
The posters within that category have not behaved childishly and do not deserve such treatment. It disappoints me a lot, because I expected better standards from this forum.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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You know, since this has now proved not to be the case, all you are doing by picking at it is making sure that the healing process, were one to be needed, is delayed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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To attempt to shift the blame to me is, frankly, unforgiveable.
The 'healing process' as you call it, would not be required if you had not pointed a wholly unjustified accusing finger in the first place, and closure could be easily achieved - if that were necessary - by a simple apology for having done so.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I came here specifically to address any post which might have been made in response to the post I made last night. Having done that, before closing the link the titles on some other threads cought my eye, and I read about the exclusion of Jack and the exchanges which led to that exclusion.
What follows is specifically addressed to Timmy, but I think the principles involved are relevant to all those who post here.
I do not seek to defend Jack's attitude, and certainly in the closing stages he was unnecessarily rude. But Jack's educational background is clearly very different from the majority of those who post here regularly. He does not express himself well. Should we ignore the fact that he comes from a different social background? Or should he be allowed some leeway to take account of that? Clearly he misunderstood the primary thrust of your original post - but, then again, you also misunderstood what he was trying to say. Would you have acted in the same way if his opinion had been expressed in the words into which Saben subsequently paraphrased it? I rather doubt that. You accused him of poking sticks, and though I might have chosen different words it is certainly true that several of his posts have been provocative - but is that a reflection of the man or of his command of English? You clearly do not like the man, and that is of course your prerogative; everyone is entitled to decide whom he likes or does not like among those with whom he comes into contact. I'd say it was pretty clear that the dislike was mutual. But it seems to me that you viewed the exchange solely from your own perspective; viewed from Jack's perspective, your responses were equally provocative; you talked down to him and made no attempt to conciliate. To Jack, you were 'poking sticks' with just as much fervour as you attributed to him. So, although the episode was unpleasant, was it entirely his fault that it became so?
You subsequently started a new thread with a post advocating that contributors should simply ignore rudeness from others. That sounds fine in theory, but it can never work in practice because it flies in the face of human nature and it ignores the realities of what actually happens. I'll do my best to explain. Think of a bully who punches a younger kid. The younger kid ignores the assault - whether from fear or for some other reason is not really relevant. The bully's sense of self-importance is massaged, and the bullying continues, maybe with even more aggression. That is perfectly normal behaviour for those who have an aggressive streak; they continue to push the envelope until they meet resistance which they cannot overcome. Rudeness and deliberate discourtesy are simply non-physical forms of aggression, and similar parameters apply. In the context of a forum such as this, no-one will simply come out of the blue and insult someone else; if that were the case, your proposal might well work effectively. The reality is that the rudeness will be associated with some sort of exchange of opinions; if the person at whom it is directed simply walks away, the perpetrator believes that he has won the argument - and that is likely to encourage, rather than discourage a repetition of such behaviour.
This forum has been so successful for so long because it has, in general, been remarkably free from what you describe as 'pissing contests'; some US gay forums have been torn apart by them. But it only becomes a 'pissing contest' if aggressive rudeness is met by more aggressive rudeness. So long as there is free expression there will be disagreement, and so long as there is disagreement, rudeness will inevitably surface from time to time. But if the person against whom the rudeness is directed does not reply in kind but simply seeks to continue the dialogue by demonstrating why he does not accept the other's point of view, the exchange can never deteriorate into a 'pissing contest'.
In general, people do not like their opinions to be challenged, but opinions expressed in an open forum will always be open to challenge; that's the nature of the beast. It's a classic example of the principle that those who can't stand the heat shouldn't come into the kitchen. That doesn't mean that anyone should be hesitant about posting, it simply means that if they post on a discussion thread, someone may dispute the validity of what they say - but that's the whole essence of debate.
As you are aware, I was drawn - with some reluctance - into an off-line discussion which was broadly concerned with the rudeness issue. I disagreed with you, but I did try to explain why I felt that your view was incorrect. You response included two comments which could at best be described as deliberately provocative. I replied without (I hope) doing the same thing, re-stating my views and explaining at considerable length why I felt such a strong sense of commitment to a site which I regard as an immensely valuable - and possibly unique - internet resource. You chose to ignore that reply, which is why I no longer feel welcome here and am not posting except on this or closely allied topics.
So, in short, you are neither better nor worse than me or the majority of ordinary human beings who profess a semblance of morality and compassion. But you did not handle me well and you did not handle Jack well. We are all human and all imperfect, but in expecting other posters to face dissent and rudeness with equanimity, you are asking for more than most ordinary people - including yourself - have the capacity to deliver.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Thank you for your comments. I have read them, and I do not agree with them.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and the whole point of a discussion is to exchange views. Simply to say that you do not agree, without attempting to identify the defects in my argument is, by accepted standards, extremely rude.
The fact that you own this site is irrelevant to my position. Regardless of ownership, it is an immensely valuable - and pretty much unique - internet resource. It is especially valuable for two groups. Firstly, it is a source of support, advice and information for young people who are confused or isolated by their sexual orientation. Secondly, and perhaps equally importantly, it provides reassurance and support to the significant group of adults who, for whatever reason, repressed their homosexual feelings earlier in life only to find those feelings re-emerge as they grow older - typically, but not invariably, between the ages of 45 and 65. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only site catering to the latter group, and although there are numerous support sites for young people in the former group, the forum here has - or had - a uniquely informal sense of community. I have a deep sense of commitment to the site because I believe that is so very much worthwhile.
It is because of that sense of commitment that I am so concerned about recent trends. I imagine that most posters have already worked out what is at the root of our differences but, for those who have not, it all stems from my reaction to Marc's behaviour. Before going any further, let me make it clear that I am not attacking Marc the person, but simply his behaviour. Nor am I ignoring the background in which that behaviour is rooted. Marc has faced more trauma in his life than any random dozen of the rest of us. You can read about the two major incidents in the post he made a few weeks ago, but what he didn't say was that the legacy of the first - the electric shock therapy to 'cure' his homosexuality left him with an abiding and entirely understandable fear - perhaps even terror - of the medical profession. When, some years later, his boyfriend and life-partner was beaten to death in front of him, that fear clearly impacted upon both the extent and effectiveness of the support he so obviously needed to recover control of his life. He has survived, but he has never fully recovered. Then, about a year ago, his partner for the previous six years or so left, leaving Marc alone. Over the past year, Marc has obviously been very lonely and depressed - in such circumstances, who could feel otherwise? I think that Marc himself would admit that he has always had a tendency to adopt an entrenched position in discussions, but against the unhappy background that tendency has become increasingly evident in recent months, and Marc has lost control and become rude and aggressive to other posters.
In terms of the community 'feel' of the forum, this was causing real problems. I know that Marc's behaviour was hurting other posters and was even driving some people away from the forum; I know this because I still have the e-mails in which they told me so. And the behaviour was hurting Marc, too, because he needed interaction with other people but his behaviour was alienating him from the rest of the 'community'.
I can't pretend that I thought of this all at once; I have to admit that at first I reacted to Marc in irritation because of the damage he was doing. Eventually, however, trying to be logical and analytical, I came to the following conclusions -
- Firstly, Marc's behaviour must change, or the damage would continue and in all probability become worse.
- Secondly, Marc's behaviour was not his fault; it arose from his depressed mental state. In fact, even though depression and loneliness still shows through, the Marc you meet in e-mail correspondence is a very different personality from the Marc who loses his temper on the forum. In essence, he's kind, caring guy to whom life has been especially unkind.
So, from that standpoint it didn't need much further thinking to conclude that the logical approach was to talk to Marc, away from the forum, to see if by talking about the problem we could between us come up with a strategy to help him to avoid the damaging behaviour. As I made clear to Marc, I'm not trying to be an amateur psychiatrist - my knowledge of depressive illness is entirely limited to my own experiences or the experiences of those with whom I have shared therapy. Marc is receiving proper professional counselling; my concern is solely to try to help him deal with the problem at the forum. Of course, neither Marc nor I can promise that we will succeed, but we are trying - though obviously Marc's priority over the last ten days or so has had to be the arrangements for the move to his new apartment. But talking helps, and I'm happy to keep talking - as should be obvious from the length of some of my posts!
I am of course aware that Timmy has known Marc for several years, and that he attended the ceremony of commitment between Marc and Kevy. I am not trying to intrude upon that friendship, and I certainly haven't discussed Timmy in any communications I have had with Marc. Timmy, apparently, does not believe that Marc's behaviour will change, and that is clearly the root cause behind his suggestion that posters should simply ignore rudeness on the part of other posters. At first view, that seems to be a straightforward attempt to protect a friend. The trouble is, it won't and cannot work. Marc really needs some friends, as would anyone who is lonely and depressed, but allowing his past behaviour to continue would alienate him still further. More importantly, human nature doesn't operate on the altruistic level Timmy seems to expect; insults hurt people and ultimately people become sick of being hurt - and indeed why should they be hurt in a place to which they came looking for support?
Timmy, the next bit is addressed directly to you.
First of all, you have created something of very great value; something which needs to be preserved. It's a bit like Lord Reith and the BBC; the importance of what you have created is such that the welfare of the creation transcends the welfare of the creator. For the future success of the forum you need to weigh your personal inclinations against the best interests of what you have created.
And secondly - and I accept that this is harsh but I really do believe that it is valid and that it ought to be said - you really cannot justify an attempt to impose on others standards which you do not reach yourself. You have a fondness for phrases such as 'poking sticks' and 'pissing contests' when criticising others, but you need to examine your own behaviour more closely. The post which heads this thread is a classic example of stick-poking; it served no purpose other than to point a wholly unjustified finger of accusation at a number of posters, including myself. And although it is perfectly clear that the accusation WAS unjustified - I have curtailed posting because of YOUR attitude to me, and certainly no-one was boycotting because Marc had resumed posting - you are apparently unwilling to apologise for doing something for which you have criticised others. And similarly with the pissing contest; your exchange with Jack was exactly that - neither party addressed the views expressed by the other, both of you simply escalated the antagonism. Human nature is pretty much universal; if you find it difficult to avoid such behaviour, then so does everyone else.
Returning to Marc, it has been reported on the forum (though not by Marc) that he has received several e-mails telling him to 'fuck off'. I find it difficult to imagine which of our regular posters might resort to such behaviour, but it is certainly indefensible. If anyone reading this was responsible, it would be nice to apologise to Marc. I've already said that the Marc you meet be e-mail differs from the Marc who loses his temper on the forum. I am not encouraging other posters to e-mail Marc just because I say so; the result would be synthetic and insincere. What I AM saying is don't let Marc's apparent past aggression on the forum discourage you from contacting him directly if the occasion arises, just as some contributors contact me, or other posters, to explore in more depth something which has cropped up in the forum. You won't regret it!
And finally, whilst I think this exchange needs to be aired in open forum, I do NOT want to bring anyone else into the argument; it is simply a dispute between Timmy and myself. If anyone wishes to comment in any way about my point of view, feel free to e-mail whichever of us seems appropriate, but please don't comment in the forum; that can only make a bad situation worse.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I am not in dispute with you. I am simply not going to extend this by chewing over every single detail. We disagree. I am sure I am not going to alter your view by discussing it, and your arguments have not swayed my thinking. All we can possibly do is to show people that we disagree. Friends may disagree, even vigorously, without spoiling a friendship. But the disagreement, fully discussed, will hurt the place the disagreement is about.
I didn't attend the ceremony, by the way, I would have, but dates moved. It was a pity, but could not be helped.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but, in reality, it isn't.
As regards the core topic, I have not merely stated an opinion, I have explained in some detail the process by which I reached that opinion. You have not, at any stage, explained WHY you considered my conclusion to be unsound. Thirtyfive years of professional life interacting with the public on one hand and with government and the legal system on the other has taught me a great deal about human nature - how to anticipate its effects and, on occasion, how to use that anticipation to achive a desired result. I don't pretend to be a behavioural scientist, but I do have considerable practical experience. My contention that it is wholly unrealistic to expect that posters will routinely walk away from rudeness and aggression, to themselves or to others, without any diminution of their interest in the forum, is based upon that experience and is augmented by the testimony of those who have already left. You say that you decline to 'chew over every single detail', implying that there has been some discussion about the merits of that contention; the truth of the matter is that you have not chewed over ANY single detail, either on the off the forum. When not ignoring me, you have simply stated baldly that I am wrong. But that's not the real issue here.
This exchange would not have reached the forum if you had not discourteously ignored the last e-mail I sent to you. Even then, I merely kept silent until you made the wholly unjustified implied accusation which began this thread. Despite the fact that it is perfectly obvious that the accusation - which potentially tainted a considerable number of people - was without foundation, you have not felt it necessary to apologise. Instead, you accuse me of 'picking' at the issue, as if the fault were mine, not yours.
I could say more about your unreasonable expectation that other posters ought to behave with an altruism and tolerance which you have not been able to display yourself, but I think that may be pretty obvious to most posters already.
The sad part is that you know perfectly well that I acted as I did because the forum was being damaged by Marc's behaviour - and that, for reasons previously explained, was an absolute fact, not merely a speculative opinion. I have tried to do something about it. I am on good terms with Marc. I have not hurt him; I have pledged to help him as much as I can on the particular issue of his periodic loss of control on the forum, and in broader terms I am trying to be a good and supportive friend. In fact, that doesn't take much effort; he's very easy to talk with by e-mail. I began to do that because I cared very much about the welfare of this place. I have hurt nobody and have tried to do something to help without imposing any burden upon you or any other poster.
Despite my professed experience of human nature, I find it difficult - indeed pretty much impossible - to understand why, after the remarkable achievement of creating and nurturing this immensely valuable site and forum - an achivement of which you ought with every justification to be immensely proud - you are willing to risk damaging your creation by acting in what certainly appears to me to be a cavalier - even petulant - manner.
There will be those who will feel that I should have let this exchange peter out, as Timmy would obviously wish me to do - but sweeping a problem under the carpet does not provide a solution. I would be happy to discuss any aspect of the issue, on or off the forum, but thus far nothing remotely constructive has been said to dissuade me from the belief that if the forum is to continue to be successful and to flourish even more, rudeness, aggression and the endless bickering has got to stop, and that this can only be achieved by a consistently-applied policy that such behaviour is entirely unacceptable. That doesn't preclude tolerance and understanding in appropriate instances - I am on record as a committed opponent of the zero-tolerance approach in any form, and sensible exercise of discretion is an intergral element of good management in every situation. But the rules should be clear; rudeness and aggression is not something which should be seen as acceptable, or indulgently ignored.
Being of logical bent - well, bent, at any rate! - I do of course realise that my posts on this thread could, with some justification, be described as bickering. My defence is that I am bickering with the sole objective of attempting to remove the root causes which would lead to future bickering. Sometimes its necessary to shout in order to ask people not to shout.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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It's back to being ignored again - in and off the forum.
It truly depresses me that someone for whom I once had immense respect should behave in such a self-righteous and petulant fashion.
There is thus nothing I can reasonably add, here or elsewhere, now or in the future. I console myself with the thought that it is better to have tried and failed than to have failed to try.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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You have the last word, though it obviously appears that I do at present, a paradox. I am not going to get drawn into this any more. All that will happen is that it will escalate more and more, and aggravate the bejasus out of everyone else.
I have not knowingly ignored any email, but I am not taking further part in this conversation on the forum.
Shots like "It truly depresses me that someone for whom I once had immense respect should behave in such a self-righteous and petulant fashion" will not induce me to take part in it. The subject is no longer of any interest to me, and almost certainly of no interest to anyone else.
You are not being ignored, not at all. No-one is ignoring you. I am simply staying with the position that I disagree with you and have moved on. I have nothing to add and nothing I wish to add. Now you may keep bringing this to the head of the board if it is important to you to do so, but this is the final reply I will make to it or to any other thread or post referring to this one.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I am noticing something odd here 
Re: I am noticing something odd here 
