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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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They were separate posts, but they combined in my head to mean "Do it today, this is not a dress rehearsal!"
There is a risk that this will become long and ramble! And that it will not strike a chord with anyone.
When I was a boy, I was a product of my upbringing and of my fears. I was afraid of shadows and was unable to come to terms with being gay, and wholly unable to tell the boy I loved how much he meant to me.
Instead I created a mythology that surrounded him. To me he was graceful, beautiful, wonderful, a friend, clever, funny, witty, great company, and the person I wanted to spend my life with. Look at that list. No-one is all of those things. That list is for a pet puppy!
Even so I sold this catalogue of alleged virtues to myself so well that I believed them. And, since they were now "true" I could not risk cracking the glass case I had placed him in. I feared rejection first, ridicule second, treatment for the ailment of homosexuality third.
My life is made up of terrible misfortunes, none of which has actually happened to me.
Anthony's post about the death of his friend, and Jack's questions about old heads on young shoulders started to come together here.
With my older, probably wiser head, I would have spoken to him, even back then. I know today that closure then would have stopped me from damaging myself so badly as I have by clinging to the pathetic and hopeless hope that he would, one day, see sense and love me. He would either have wanted me, or he would not. That would have been the end of it. Well, except for the ridicule, but that is bearable.
Would I have risked being sent for treatment? I have no idea. I asked my mother while she was alive and she never said 'no' and she never said 'yes', so the answer is 'probably', but I would have survived it. I would have survived being expelled, too. And losing my 'friends', but I lost them anyway when friends was the thing they were not.
If this has any relevance at all today, it is to say that, where is is lawful and physically safe to do so, tell him that you love him, if love him you do. Tell him gently and with his needs in mind, but tell him. He probably doesn't return it, but he just might!
Tell him before you get old and fat and unattractive! He might, just might, fancy you.
I really damaged myself very badly. I have a wonderful wife who deserves a heterosexual man, and a fine son who is my friend as well as my son. But I am a gay man, and I should have lived the life of a gay man, whatever that involved.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Timmy,
Don't beat yourself up please. I look at your message and wonder how much of it applies to me. I was lucky to develop late and so didn't have unbearable longings for anyone at school. Obviously this made things much easier for me.
You wrote:
My life is made up of terrible misfortunes, none of which has actually happened to me.
And I don't understand.
But reading old letters has made me realise that I too was in deep denial: plainly didn't want to be homosexual and declared that I wasn't! But I was primarily homosexual for about ten years. I've come to realise that I am (and in my view always have been) nine tenths homosexual.
OK, I told my wife I was before I saddled her with me and she was happy to try me on and I've been able to stay faithful. And I wouldn't give up my family for anything so maybe all is for the best. But, I think like Timmy, I sometimes wonder what I missed. And I get to wish that I had had the same chances as young people nowadays.
In this life one cannot have one's cake and eat it. You can't choose your sexual makeup but you can choose how one lives and I did and I mustn't be stupid about it and think I would choose otherwise even if given my time again.
As Sylvia said after reading A N Wilson's biography of bisexual Betjeman (who didn't stop having affairs for the whole of his life) that he really was not a very nice person. When asked during a TV interview whether he had any regrets his answer was "Not enough sex!" I related to that - but if I had gone his way I would have made a lot of people unhappy and doubt whether I would really have benefited much.
Timmy, I think you ought to forgive yourself for being such a nice person.
Was that bad advice?
Love,
Anthony
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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well,
Timmy you surprise me, you have taken all the good from living a str8 life,
and now you say you should have gone down the total gay road.
I think that statement is out of order.
you can now go down the Gay road in total if you want.
Remember you have had a good life and a son which you might not have had if you chose the other road.
Life is not long enough to enjoy both to the full.
I know i have opened a hornets nest but hey lets go for it.
life is to enjoy.
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Well we come a long way since we last shook hands
Still got a long way to go
Couldn't see the flowers when we last shook hands
Couldn't see the flowers on account of the snow
What did you do with your burden and your cross
Did you carry it yourself or did you crack
We all know that a burden and a cross
Can only be carried on one man's back
All my life I wanted to roam
To go to the ends of the earth
But the earth really ends where you started to roam
And you and I know what a circle is worth
Give me your hand for the parting touch
Fare thee well and thanks a lot
I know we promised to keep in touch
But you and I know that we both forgot
Let's drink a cup to what went down
There's not much left to reveal
I think I changed my mind after what went down
As to who in the end got the better deal
Ah we come a long way since we last shook hands
Still got a long way to go
Couldn't see the flowers when we last shook hands
Couldn't see the flowers on account of the snow
(words and music by Kate McGarrigle/Garden Court Music ASCAP)
Jack
I don't think that any of us is in a position to judge the choices that others have each made in their own lives. Probably because of my age, I know almost equal numbers of married gay men who have remained with their wives, and married gay men who have split from their wives (usually once the kids have left home: my contemporaries now have kids at Uni. or older). This has convinced me of one thing only - there are NO easy choices ... "We all know that a burden and a cross / Can only be carried on one man's back"
And, when it comes down to it, some of the guys who have divorced, and embraced a new gay life in their 50s and early 60s are happy, but at least one I know now rather regrets it (nor, in fact, are such regrets exclusively about coming out: I happen to know that my father now rather regrets having split up with my mother ... some forty years and six subsequent wives after the event!).
so ... "I think I changed my mind after what went down / As to who in the end got the better deal"
I have profound respect for those guys here who have chosen to come out to their wives and stay married. I have profound respect for the guys I know who decided late in life to embrace an active gay life and get divorced. I am - now - profoundly thankful that although I had planned marriage to a girl in my late teens, we split up before that could take place.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You may think precisely as you wish. You have totally missed the point of my post. I find your post rude.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I was not berating myself. I am simply trying to show the folk who are about to take their life altering decisions today that some decisions lead to a life that is diametrically opposed to their natures and needs.
Today is important. Today is the day a decision which will affect the generic 'you' for the rest of your life can be made. The thing is to be wise nough to decide and them implement that decision.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The more I look at this, the more I see behaviour that I really dislike. It's "Hey, look at me, I've opened a hornets' nest."
The thing is, remarks like that are not smart, not clever, and simply let everyone down including you.
Have you actually read the very simple rules at the top of the forum? If not, read them, please. If you have, get with the programme.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Timmy,
you made the statement not me.
if i have offended you then you should have kept it to yourself.
I really don't care which way you go i gave an opinion.
What i have said is you have taken all that is offered from the str8 life, and now you wished you had gone down the gay road.
you may head the forum but you don't own the posters.
you need to take criticism.
life is to enjoy.
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Dear Timmy,
I'm very sorry if I spoke out of turn. I think I have annoyed you and I really wouldn't want to do that.
I agree that we all make choices and sometimes we don't act when we should (and do act when we shouldn't) and you are right that some choices are life-changing.
I've made my bed and must lie on it. So has everyone else. It is painful to see other people agonising over choices made long ago, especially if they are kind and understanding people.
One of my grandchildren bought me a badge that said "Often wrong (but never in doubt)". It's how I am - sometimes too hasty. Forgive me.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It was not you who spoke out of turn, my friend. I simply wanted you to know why I posted, and that I was not beating myself up.
There is one who spoke out of turn, but he seems not to get it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You, Jack, are on the brink of completely wearing out your welcome here. Most of the behaviour you exhibit is wholly unwelcome. If you behave in real life as you do here I will be amazed if you escape unmolested from conversations in the pub.
Very rarely you display flashes of insight. Very rarely you post something that makes other people think. But mostly you display a "Hey, look at me" attitude, and your behavior is one of poking people with sticks to see how they react.
I have now got to the point where I cannot be bothered any more to differentiate between the behaviour and the person. The work is too hard. So, take this as a formal warning. Your behaviour is unwelcome. If it continues to be unwelcome you will be unwelcome yourself.
So, Jack, you have poked me and others with a stick enough to get your reaction. I hope it is what you wanted to achieve becaise oyu have finally been successful.
I and others have long felt that your presence here is as a troll. If you don't know what that means then research it. This place does not require trolls.
[Updated on: Sat, 19 January 2008 12:14]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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His behaviour is entirely unpleasant, but let me rephrase his point in kinder words.
It is possible, timmy, that you are continuing to look somewhat at how things might have been through rose-coloured glasses. You have a lot to be thankful for, including your family and you obviously appreciate and love them very much.
Now, I doubt you'd feel the same level of regret if you had chosen to live a gay lifestyle. But I'm sure that in its own way it would have been harder in a lot of ways.
It's easier to look at what you don't have with fondness than what you do have.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with what I've just said above. But I believe that is more or less the point Jack was trying to make.
If you could live both lives maybe it'd be easier to make the comparison, but not having lived both it is dreams as best. Maybe the only thing different is that you'd have a better sex life and no son? We can never know these things for sure...
Personally, timmy, I think you are who you are, whatever the choices you've made. People make the choices that seem best to them at the time. We can only hope our choices are the result of reason and forethought more than emotion and spontaneity, because they usually give the better results. We can never be sure, though. Sometimes the emotional or spontaneous choices we make benefit us in the long run, too.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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you stoop so low and bring up past rubbish, are you having a breakdown.
Come out into the real world.
life is to enjoy.
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Im not the smartest person in the world, but I even understood what Timmy was saying. Because of fear and the pressure of society Timmy was force (out of fear and threat of the reaction of society and family) to marry and take on the part of being str8t. He didnt steal anything or take anything, but was forced to assume the st8t lifestyle. He says he loves his wife and Im sure he does and I know he loves his son, but he wonders what he missed by not being able to be honest with himself and others and living a gay life. He has yearned for all the things othes in here have experienced. The feel of a boy you love, his smell, his strong arms, his kiss. Inside Timmy has these wants and desires and knows he may never have them now. I am so sorry Timmy. I wish things had been different back then.
What you said Jack was cruel and hurtful. Even a dumb kid like me understood what Timmy was saying. I dont think you have any compassion in you.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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I Have re read Timmy's post.
I fail to see his point, he says none of those things happened to him.
The hiding from people finding out is what went on in those days.
My point is this, if he wanted all through the years he could have had a gay relationship too.
some people call it an open relationship.
But he chose to be str8, but remained a gay man, o.k that was his choice.
My other point is that now he has decided that he has missed out, by not having lived a full gay life with another male person.
We make decisions in life and we suffer the consequences. I say again you would not have produced a son with a man.
This is what i find annoying.
life is to enjoy.
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Jack,
having read your profile here, you say that "in another life i would be gay." It seems to me that you might have been flicked on a raw nerve here. That's understandable - we all have areas of sensitivity.
But please don't lash out at others, however much it might be a natural reaction.
Oh, and as for the " real world" in your previous post - I, like several here, have met Timmy in the real world ... I have to say, he seemed quite at home there!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I have all the respect in the world for Timmy becuse he didnt have an open realtionship. I dont care what you want to call it it would have been cheating and his wife didnt deserve that and his son is a better person because he didnt. There is a difference between making a bad choice and being forced into a bad choice.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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o.k
all the gays and str8 people makes no difference. because we are all the same.
all the lurkers and all the so called trolls, please give an opinion.
i will lay money on it being 50/50.
you all think im bashing the man that runs the site i am not.
I hate it when people have an autocratic attitude.
Tim things do change and lets be truthful, you have done your gay/str8 bit, and now want a change. be honest.
I do admire you but you can be a child sometimes.
Difference is i say the truth and don't dress it up for others to protect me.
You see i am happy yes perhaps as N.W says perhaps you did touch a nerve, but i am happy. and i really mean that that is why i felt offended when you started the thread.
I could have gone down the road of being gay but, i have made my mark so have you, by producing off spring.be happy man .
life is to enjoy.
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Timmy,
Eloquently spoken. It is also a bit of heart and head knowledge I, myself wish I'd possessed "back then".
Thank-you.
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I appreciate your kinder words.
The point is that, if I had been brave enough then I would have lived a different life.
Now I might have ended up in a similar situation, but I would not have caused myself damage by hankering after "might have beens." I would have had "You told him (and others presumably) and this is where you are now, with the different decisions you have made."
The point I was trying to make, and was wholly misunderstood over, is that life does not wait for you to make the right decision. It moves on whatever you decide. If you want something you need to grab it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I don't have rose tinted glasses (though you didn't suggest I did). I know that my life would simply have been different, not better, not worse.
The purpose of the post was to show that a set of many small decisions, all seemingly correct at the time, though all less than what I desired, brought me to a position where I ended up affecting someone else badly. That person is my wife.
Yes, I love her, bewildering as that is to many folk, and I adore my son. And the decisions I made have ensured that he exists and that she is not as happy as she deserves.
Had I had the courage to make the decisions my heart says I should, and this is the point, I would have had a shot at the things you point out so well that I have needed all my life. I might not have achieved them, but I would have at least tried. The world did not wait while I shillyshallied. It and he moved on. I lost the chance to choose.
Not sure why you say you aren't smart, Curtis You got the main point fair and square.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Thanks, Timmy.
'Even as we speak, envious time is running away from us.
Seize the day, "Carpe diem", trusting little in the future.'
We tend to believe that there will always be another chance, and even a better one than today. I didn't dare to believe that there would be any chance at all. Now I know better and regret that I didn't seize the opportunities I had.
There are times when I am together with my grandchildren, children, their husbands, that I tell myself to shut up and be happy, and would I wish to be without the ones I now love so much? My elder daughter asked me that question once, and my sincere answer was, and will always be, that I can't possibly imagine being without them.
But there are times, too, when I am overcome with regret that I never told him how much I loved him, and sometimes my dreams about having him beside me in my bed are so real that I cry when I wake up and discover that I'm alone.
[Updated on: Sat, 19 January 2008 23:02] |
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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well yes that is so true.
i agree fully.
life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Once one has children one cannot imagine ever being without them. And yet they are also an amazing accident, one egg, and a sperm out of many million. They did not exist before and will not exist for far longer after the time that they live.
So the question is interesting and unanswerable. I would not be without my son. He's wonderful. With different decisions we would simply be living a different reality.
I have been reminded as well that it may not always be safe to take these decisions. I hope people take heed of "where is is lawful and physically safe to do so" in my original post.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>I have been reminded as well that it may not always be safe to take these decisions. I hope people take heed of "where is is lawful and physically safe to do so" in my original post.
Unfortunately, you are right.
Which is one of the reasons why websites like this one are so important, to tell scared and lonely young people that they are not alone.
[Updated on: Sun, 20 January 2008 01:17] |
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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My first crush did find out and it ruined our friendship for a year.
My second crush, well, things went a bit better there.
What I have now is entirely different to my first or second crushes.
I wonder, if I hadn't told either if I'd have regret in my current relationship.
Or if you had told him, but then still went on to marry a woman would still have had the same feelings?
I think making a decision (even the "wrong" one) is better than letting the decision pass you by. Procrastinating a decision screws with your head far more than making one and stick to it.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:20]
Cycling is the one sport where a guy can shave his legs, wear spandex and bright colors, and be accepted.
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I am not sure that I should be posting this, but Timmy and Anthony have said things that prod me into self-revelation.
I don't know how truly gay I am: there was one boy that I yearned for and lusted for when we were 18. He was as straight as they come and I knew it was hopeless. (We have been wonderful friends now for more than 40 years.) I think that somehow, subconsciously, the situation told me that I would have to go a lonely and frustrating path. In many ways I have. I shall return to this later.
I was lonely and so deep in the closet that I couldn't have seen the door even if I had wanted to. (There are some here who know me and why. It is irrelevant for this post.) A casual remark by a co-worker one day made me realise that there was a woman who was in love with me - something that I never believed possible. Almost without thinking I proposed and we have been married now for several decades. I love my wife and she loves me. We have three wonderful children and numerous grandchildren and I never regret for one split second having taken that path. But, unlike Timmy and Anthony, neither my wife nor my children nor anyone else - except my friends here - knows that I am gay. (Maybe some suspect, but no one has ever said anything.) Throughout my married life I have been absolutely faithful.
But, to tell the truth, I don't know how much that means. I have been faithful because I have never been able to imagine myself having sex with another man. (I think there may have been one or two, here and there, but somehow I always 'shouted silently' that I was 'out of bounds'. I think that my situation has made me a 'voyeur'. By that I mean that I get sexual pleasure from looking at nude men - usually the kind of man that would never go to bed with me in a million years! I suppose I have turned myself into some kind of 'gay nut case', and that is something that I would not want for any youngster here.
I am truly happy for Anthony that he has been able to enjoy both worlds. I fear that my personality has been warped because I lived in one world while yearning also to be in another.
End of self revelation.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Dear JFR,
If that was my fault I'll apologise (unless you think it did you good!).
How do any of us know how gay or straight we are? We know what we do. We know, some of the time, what we desire (but sometimes when it suddenly becomes available we shy away from it or are turned off and repelled - I remember a shop assistant in a fitting room in Foubert's Place in maybe 1955: in principle I was eager, in practice I couldn't do it).
If a beautiful friend came on to me or propositioned me I think I would tell him I couldn't - but I won't know until it happens.
How do I know I'm gay then? Only by seeing what I like to look at and read and worry about. But I'm a silly old man and Anna has it right when she says I'm weird.
And living in one world and yearning for another is part of the human condition - as the man said: "Reach must exceed grasp, or what's a heaven for?" (Not that I believe in heaven.)
I too have been faithful and for about 45 years so far. But when I was twenty and thought I loved somebody I TOLD them I wanted to have sex with them (I suppose in your terms I just couldn't see the closet) and usually they said they were straight and I pined for them a bit and life went on. And some of them are still good friends of mine. But the gay ones I wanted to get together with and rejected me were much harder to bear when they went off in pairs and said goodbye. And not many of them are friends still I regret to say.
I don't think your personality is warped - or mine, for that matter. We just handled the world in different ways just as everyone here is handling the world the way they think is best. It's knowing the possibilities and seeing some of the less obvious consequences that helps to inform the best choices.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think what you have revealed is wonderfully ordinary. Hard to explain what I mean, especially since you feel it to be in some way special, but you have shown wholly normal needs, emotions, desires and reactions.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Timmy,
Yep. Ordinary. Banal even. Boring old fart maybe.
(But don't you think JFR needed to be reassured?)
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Hence the word "wonderfully"
Ordinariness is wonderful.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Anthony,
Thank you so much for your wonderful response. Don't worry at all about me and Timmy. I know exactly what he meant - 'cos he told me privately 
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Folks have said a lot to me about beating myself up. Truly I do not do that. Instead I put myself on display as an example of a life that could have been lived differently, and potentially according to the way my supposed needs run.
I am here as one example amongst many of how I feel I went wrong.
I could be a reformed alcoholic, a thief gone straight (please avoid the pun!), or anyone who has made what he perceives of as porr decisions, wanting to show others how those decisions might have been made differently.
It does help me, personally so to speak, to post things like this because it helps me to clarify my own thoughts, but my time for reversing decisions was in the 1960s. They can't be reversed today. So they are here as an example to you of what I did that I regretted, that I regret. How you make your life run is down to you, but I hope using this as input is at least helpful in showing a road that ought to have been travelled differently.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Enough, Jack. 
