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JFR's post:
>Nigel wrote:
I do not understand JFR's question.
I thought it was clear. Let me try again.
Your point, Nigel, was regarding OUR relationship with other countries such as Iraq. My question was how do we expect those other countries to relate to US - according to THEIR customs and mores? according to our customs and mores? according to some internationally agreed set of customs and mores?
J F R<
Sorry, no, JFR. My point was that it is wrong and more important futile for the Western democracies to impose their standards on countries whose history and society have no appreciation of the western way of life.
If I understand your question now, I don't expect these (in this case) Asian countries to appreciate what the West is trying to do for them. Hoping not to trivalise it, it's like the Boy Scout showing the old lady across the road and then finding out that she didn't want to cross in the first place. And so to answer your question I expect them to view and judge the West by their customs and mores.
Russia might be an interesting, but contrasting example. Until 1989 she had no conception or history of democracy in the Western sense, but the desire for democracy came from within, came from the people. It was not imposed. However, even after nearly 20 years their democracy is fragile and under threat particularly from Putin who being of the old Soviet guard cannot really cope with democracy.
Hugs
N
[Updated on: Mon, 04 February 2008 23:07]
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nigel wrote:
Sorry, no, JFR. My point was that it is wrong and more important futile for the Western democracies to impose their standards on countries whose history and society have no appreciation of the western way of life.
I understood you - and I thought that I had reproduced that understanding in different words.
As far as your response to my question is concerned: you have quite misread me! (Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.)
We should not try to impose our western values system on a population that does not share that values system. Agreed. But, how should we react when a country with a values system different from ours relates to us according to their values system, and that is detrimental to us?
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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That is what diplomatic relations are meant to be about. But nowadays every citizen of every country knows too much. It was far easier when all that was concealed from us and we just sent a gunboat
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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As a general rule keep talking, perhaps economic sanctions. I suspect you have Israeli-Iranian relations in mind in which case you need a strong defence and a strong ability to counter-attack.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nigel wrote:
I suspect you have Israeli-Iranian relations in mind
Well, yes - in part. But I think the issue is wider than that. Since the rise of Islam in the 6th century Arab governments seem to have adopted a policy of "what you did not achieve by violence you can achieve by more violence". This is true not just of Arab/Non-Arab relations; let the war between Iraq and Iran in the 80's of the last century illustrate.
Such an unwritten policy was also adopted by the Christian powers in the middle ages - and even up to the end of the 19th century. (In the 20th century the West seems mainly to have taken to violence only to combat violence or to protect its interests - sometimes with overkill.)
So, in general: we should not seek to impose our values system on nations and peoples that have a different values system, but what do we do when they try to impose their values system on us. Let Al-Qaida illustrate.
Surely, sometimes you have to resort to violence in self-protection.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I think Islam is still rooted intellectually in the middle ages. It won't and can't modernise itself because it views itself as immutable.
Basically, JFR, we appear to be in agreement.
Hugs
N
[Updated on: Tue, 05 February 2008 17:03]
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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>So, in general: we should not seek to impose our values system on nations and peoples that have a different values system, but what do we do when they try to impose their values system on us. Let Al-Qaida illustrate.
>Surely, sometimes you have to resort to violence in self-protection.
President Theodore Roosevelt said "speak softly and carry a big stick". But I guess what you are asking, JFR, is when is it appropriate to swing that stick?
Bush was obviously out of bounds with his approach to Iraq. His stick swinging days are numbered, thank God. All in all, I think your country has acted appropriately to the violence and threats of violence directed towards it. When diplomacy (speaking softly) failed, there were times you were forced to use the stick. I think it's a matter of electing the right individuals to see to it that a proper balance is maintained - and that goes for the U.S. especially.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been Going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long Time. So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there He was, walking slowly up to the holy site. She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to Leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for An interview.
"Pardon me, sir, I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. What's your name?"
"Morris Fishbien," he replied.
"Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"
"For about 60 years."
"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"
"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims. I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop. I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible Adults, and to love their fellow man."
"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"
"Like I'm talking to a fuckin' wall."
***********************
JFR - I hope you realize I mean no disrespect to either you or your religion in this post. I think it simply demonstrates the feelings of all of us of every faith. Sometimes it just seems as though God isn't listening.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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Actually Paul, I felt no disrespect, and I found it quite funny!
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Paul Schroder wrote:
JFR - I hope you realize I mean no disrespect to either you or your religion in this post.
Like Benji, I took no offence at all, and I, too, thought it was a good joke. As far as the Western Wall is concerned... Presumably he has a direct line to heaven.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I think that religion has a lot to answer for. How could anyone be a suicide bomber if they thought this life was the only life they'd get?
Isn't it religion that teaches us to hate people different from us?
But as to prayers here is a link to something Francis Galton wrote in 1872 (the year my house was built) in a way it is the last word on the subject (although for some inexplicable reason people haven't yet stopped talking about it  )
http://www.abelard.org/galton/galton.htm#prayer
Love,
Anthony
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acam wrote:
> I think that religion has a lot to answer for. How could anyone be a suicide bomber if they thought this life was the only life they'd get?
The connection between religion and suicide bombers is tenuous at best. A lot of very good work on this was done by Robert Pape -as Wikipedia puts it:
"Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (2005) controverts many widely held beliefs about suicide terrorism. Based on an analysis of every known case of suicide terrorism from 1980 to 2005 (315 attacks as part of 18 campaigns), he concludes that there is "little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions... . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland" (p. 4). "The taproot of suicide terrorism is nationalism," he argues; it is "an extreme strategy for national liberation" (pp. 79-80). Pape's work examines groups as diverse as the Basque ETA to the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers. Pape also notably provides further evidence to a growing body of literature that finds that the majority of suicide terrorists do not come from impoverished background, but rather have middle class origins."
It's fair to say that some people have concluded that the present spate of suicide bombing especially in connection with Iraq refutes his hypothesis - though many others believe that territorial rather than religious impulses underly the actions of the bombers.
As regard the power of prayer in general, a widely-held view is that "having prayers answered" is NOT the same as "having requests granted". A mainstream Christian (which I'm not), for example, might point out that Jesus prayed to be spared the agony of the Cross "Father, if Thou be willing, let this cup pass from me" before continuing "nevertheless, not my will but thine be done".
The tradition to which I vaguely adhere generally doesn't think of prayer as asking for "things" or "outcomes", but as asking for guidance on one's own actions ... clearing one's mind enough to pray sensibly is inherently helpful in this - though possibly no more so than any other mind-clearing exercise.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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My own belief is that God is much too busy with really important things to listen to all the wailings and begging he hears from human beings. I pray, but just because I feel I need to say thanks.
Sometimes our gang goes up to Beth Chaverim for Friday evening services with Daniel and his girlfriend Hannah. We're all going tonight in fact which reminded me to write this. I'm very comfortable with the simple Reform service and the idea of just God there, rather than all the Trinity, and the saints, and Mary and all the other stuff that hangs on Christianity.
Daniel told me about this funny but serious clip and I thought our Jewish friends would like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-d6f6T_WtQ
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Shofar - so good! 
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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When even prayers don't work. 
Re: When even prayers don't work. 
