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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I was chatting with one of 'my' authors last night. He said. "I no longer receive emails when I have a new story posted. Do you think the kids today read them?"
I postulated. I have postulated before and I'll do it again! Postulation is good for the soul.
My thought was that even in the few years since the site started, it has become easier to be young and gay. I wondered if stories that show love and romance were less needed today. I was thinking that just maybe in at least the English speaking world, homosexuality was not such a big deal any more.
I'd love to know what you think. And, if you are a reader of stories, I'd like to remind you that authors get 'paid' in compliments and they love feedback
[Updated on: Sun, 17 February 2008 13:56]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I know that Timmy does not approve of this kind of message here, but I thought that I would just give my opinion that Darkfall is the best thing that Grasshopper has written to date - and you may be sure that he knows that this is my opinion 
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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As long as we don't start pulling stories apart here, I'm fine with comments like that. I don;t want us to become a "book club" kind of discussion forum because some of the book club style comments hurt.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
> My thought was that even in the few years since the site started, it has become easier to be young and gay. I wondered if stories that show love and romance were less needed today. I was thinking that just maybe in at least the English speaking world, homosexuality was not such a big deal any more.
I don't think it has much to do with being English-speaking: Nigeria is hardly known as a liberal society, whereas France and Spain have both had fairly progressive attitudes. I think it's more a "highly-developed country" thing ... especially the post-colonial powers, which have a collective burden of guilt about their treatment of other humans to work through (though this, of course, does not account for the Scandanavians).
The change is half a lifetime here in the UK has been pretty dramatic. When I was 12, homosexual activity was finally legalised here, with a whole bunch of arbitrary restrictions, and for men over 21. Neither I nor my parents knew any gay men (that we knew of ... though there were a couple of schoolmasters who clearly got their "kicks from little boys"). When my nephew was 12, the age of consent for gay and straight sex had been equalised, Civil Partnerships had passed through Parliament, the Sexual Orientation regulations were under discussion, he has an out gay uncle, his parents have gay couples as friends, his grandmother has a gay couple as neighbours ... There are certainly places where being gay isn't a big deal in any way, and they are growing in number.
There are plenty of places where it still ain't easy, especially as a kid. But there is, at least, the prospect of being able to become an adult and escape to somewhere where it is rather easier.
However, I don't think that has much to do with not writing to authors. If I had to pick a cause for that, I'd guess that it's the massive scare about "paedophiles and predators" that has grown up over the past 20 or 30 years, and which makes people of all generations very wary of corresponding with people outside their (perceived) age-group.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Dear Timmy,
I don't know whether your aim for the site was just to help young people feel more at ease with themselves - but if it was, you have achieved a lot more than that.
I don't know any young gay people except on this site, so I don't know whether the stories are read by such people. On the other hand I also read printed books for young people such as Alex Sanchez' Rainbow series and Jaqueline Wilson "Kiss" and there is no doubt that gay people are more readily accepted than they used to be.
But it varies a lot. In the junior school where two of my grandchildren went "gay" is the adjective of choice to insult someone with in the playground. At the secondary school where I was governor for seven years there is no 'out' teacher (out of over a hundred) and no gay-straight alliance or anything like that. I believe that people are still bullied by being called gay (though the school does try to stop it). I now regret that there wasn't an 'out' governor and if I were to do it again I hope I would have the courage to admit my sexuality.
In Bristol, if you are gay and confident about it there are several known gay pubs and clubs and Gaywest runs coffee mornings and other social events for people who just want to talk and socialise.
But if you are torn - if you aren't sure - If you haven't admitted even to yourself I think there is still a problem. I would be surprised if the Mailcrew would accept for a minute that their work is done and IOMFATS is part of and helps with that work.
And there is no doubt in my mind that I have benefited immensely from the site and this forum though I bet the over seventies aren't even on the Timmy radar!
Although I'm sure that you are right to say that being gay is getting to be more nearly 'normal' I think it is much harder to sit on the fence than it used to be. Will Davies' book "My side of the story" about a sixteen year old is illuminating to me. The fictional Jaz, in the process of exploring his gayness gets raped among other things simply because there was no safe place for him to go once he realised he was gay and wasn't accepted at home or at school. I bet he would have been glad to find IOMFATS.
Love,
Anthony
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I dont think reading stories and being accepted in any particular area has any correlation on any level....
I do however adamantly believe that the stories DO allow gay people of whatever age to come to terms with the emotional upheavals that go along with such a profoundly personal revelation....
I have been writing for some ten years and can count the number of responses on ten fingers with enough left over to scratch my butt and nose at the same time....
While recognition is a great morale builder writers need to be able to settle for less....
After all, lets be realistic.... Not one writer of gay fiction is going to shake up the literary world....
We do it mostly for ourselves.... to come to terms with whatever issues as the circumstances warrant....
but it is still nice to hear that a reader is moved or comforted in some small way or another....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Timmy, a lot of the guys who are reading the stories are 16 or younger. I have gotten emails from several of them asking questions and just wanting to chat for a bit. Im sure that Jon and Eldon probably do to. They are still trying to find themselves and they are hesatent to email anyone because they are not out and they are still scared. Some are afraid that their rents will find out they are coming here like Matts did. So for all the authors, its not that they dont like the stories or they dont appriciate them but its awckward for them. I lurked around here forever befor I got the nerve up to post for the first time. A lot of kids are scared of talking to older dudes. They have had it pounded into their heads that there are nothing but perves and killers out there. there is one guy who is 13 and he reads the stories because he wants to believe there is romance in his life and not just raw sex and rape. I dont know how you can convence these kids its safe to email these authors. It took me a long time to email Michael Aaram and Im glad I did. I got a map of Ruritania and the school Henry attended and some updates on stories. I have seen a lot of praise for Grasshopper on this site and he deserves it. His are some of the best stories on here and a lot of the guys I talk to praise his writting. There are other authors who also deserve praise on this board to, Like Michael Aaram and Charlie. Ok this is turning out to be a novel. Anyways thats the way I see it and I hope the authors will understand that some of their readers are awful young and still scared.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I'm glad those kids have folks like you to talk to. Thank you
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I created it to help kids in pain and the adults those kids become.
I think that embraces all ages 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I meant, writer of gay fiction not a writer that is gay.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc said,
>I meant, writer of gay fiction not a writer that is gay.....
So did I. Alan Hollinghurst writes gay fiction, and he won the Booker Prize for a book that is almost exclusively about gay characters, and full of gay sex.
Gay writers are ten a penny. This one did shake up the literary world (winning the Booker Prize has to be that, by anyone's definition) with a piece of gay fiction. I wouldn't have pointed him out otherwise.
David
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First off, most of you older men who post here probably don't know that there are a lot of guys our age, mid-teens and younger, who have developed friendships and support networks from reading the postings. Yes, Eldon and i write to a few guys, and Curtis writes to other guys. the best thing that even happened because of this Forum was that Curtis and Eldon and I started becomeing friends, and Eldon and I acted as the go-between that shifted Curtis and Jeff's relationship from best friends to lovers. That totally rocked.
In high school the most important thing is to fit in. Everybody wants to fit into some group. Jocks, goths, preps, whatever. I think guys in larger metropolitan areas have it easier than us guys in rural areas. I was thinking one time, that in a school of 800 kids, there are 400 or so boys, and if only 10% were bi or gay, where are "The Forty" of us? LOL. If even 5% are like me and Donny, where are "The Twenty" of us? Bring on college!
Right now I know that there are three dudes our age who read this Forum but aren't registered and are scared that somehow their parents are gonna find out about them. Our moslem friend Halit has to one of the most intelligent dudes I've ever written to. I still hope he starts posting, but his family is very conserviative. Then there's a boy named Fridjof who lives in Stavangar, Norway and another dude who is a farmer like Eldon and who lives someplace in the west of England but he is so scared he won't tell us where. Niall, you know we love you dude!
About writing to authors. I think you realize that younger dudes like us don't read gay stories for their literary value. A well-written story is much better than one which isn't so well put together and written, but we read these, and please forgive my bluntness here, for their "arousal value." I started reading gay stories as masturbation stimulants. I guess I'm the same as any other teenager, reading stories and jacking off with one hand while working the computer mouse with the other. I read through a story until I can't hold it any longer, and when you're squirting into your boxers or trying to catch your stuff in your tee shirt the last thing on a guys mind is literary criticism. When I finish cumming I usually exit the Net and close the laptop and go to bed. I'll bet most of the guys my age are in the same boat. We read these for jerking off, and that's usually the last thing a guy does before he turns in. We read them in the privacy of our bedrooms, naked or nearly naked, and with the door locked.
I have written to a few authors, and have been treated very kindly and my comments were appreciated. Curtis is correct about Michael and the Ruritania stories. I had read the "real" Ruritania stories The Prisoner of Zenda and Rupert of Hentzau and then through Curt, discovered these newer spin offs. They're fantastic.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have always said that this forum is for those who do not post, a gift by those who do.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And the title of this book is?
If he was so noving in his genre surely you would have given the title.
Winning a prize is little more than a flash in the pan... Once it cools it is soon forgotten.
If you are talking about "The Line of Beauty".... read it... wasn't impressed.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 February 2008 12:08]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Dear Marc,
It was "The folding star" that won the James Black Tait award and I have read it and thought it was very good.
I, too bought "The line of beauty" and to tell the truth I haven't finished it yet. Too much rough sex; too much being impressed by people in high positions and where did love go? So I'm with you.
But "The swimming pool library" was good too.
Love,
Anthony
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Funny... the reason i found this site was because i was trying to find erotic stories to jack off to. Of course, it was not the sex in the stories that made me stay, it was the love and friendship which sparked my curiousity to keep on reading. It opened up a world i wanted to experience so bad while at the same time ease my pain knowing i'm not alone.
while i have never had direct contact with anyone here (with the exception of a couple of e-mails to jamie), its always nice to come here and read what is being discussed on the board.
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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Marc said,
>If he was so noving in his genre surely you would have given the title.
Well, firstly, he has written several titles, so there was no need to elaborate on just one beyond mentioning that it won the Booker Prize. Secondly, if you were in the slightest bit interested you could very easily have looked at the Wikipedia page, or any other page about him, and establish that the Booker Prize-winner was 'The Line of Beauty'. Why the petulant tone?
Marc, if you remember, which presumably you do not, I wrote my dissertation on that novel. I happen to know it as well as any other book I have ever read. I'm not going to give a literary criticism of it because it is not relevant to this thread. The simple fact that it won a major literary prize surely indicates that it did 'shake up the literary world' at least a little.
>If you are talking about "The Line of Beauty".... read it... wasn't impressed.
Curious. You've read it and yet you wouldn't call it 'gay fiction'? Your first response gave the impression that you'd never even heard of Alan Hollinghurst.
>Winning a prize is little more than a flash in the pan... Once it cools it is soon forgotten.
Yup. Once an author has won the Booker Prize, he's done for. It's the death knell for any budding writer. Excuse the sarcastic tone.
David
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My reading list is pretty narrow, living where I do, so I appreciate hearing about gay literature and gay-oriented books. I'm making a list of books that I can either buy or borrow from a library, once I get to the city. I'm really looking forward to getting to college this fall and having my horizons opened up. Jon feels the same way.
The only gay themed book I have read won the Canadian Arts Council Governor General's Literary Award. It's called Bad Boy and was written by Diana Wieler. I only got it because one of the guys I met at States last year gave me his copy. It's a great book about hockey players and how one guy discovers his best friend is gay, and how they deal with it.
I wish I could read books like The Line of Beauty now, but there's no place for me to hide things from my mom. Dad would handle it ok, mom wouldn't. Jon and I have our own checking accounts and they came with debit cards, and it's possible to buy stuff over the Internet because companies assume you are adult if you have a card, but hiding the stuff once I have it is the problem. My mom cleans everywhere!!!
Which sort of brings me to a question. Is there a list of what could be called "The Essential Gay and Bisexual Man's Reading List?"
[Updated on: Tue, 19 February 2008 02:22] |
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Eldon -- can't stop for long, but, if it were found, might you be able to get away with arguing that 'The Line of Beauty' is a mainstream novel that's worth reading because it's a Booker Prize winner, not because it's gay?
It has been popular in this country for that reason -- because it's well-known enough that straight people can read it without having to feel embarrassed, because lots of other people have done the same. Perhaps you could maintain you were an interested straight person.
In my experience, it seems to be particularly popular with middle-aged women, but perhaps that's because the only other people (outside here) that I know have read it are middle-aged women!
Incidentally, the cover on the edition I read was pretty discreet -- if I remember correctly, it didn't say the word 'gay' (or any other similarly-connotated words) anywhere on the outside.
David
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Dear Donny,
There was a time when I would buy almost every half decent gay book that was published. I have a bookcase full - five shelves and six feet wide! I don't buy everything any more partly because I read a lot on the web and partly because I no longer go past "Gays the word" on my walk from St Pancras station to work in London. I think it would be interesting and valuable to make a reviewed list and make it available somewhere.
I'll gladly join in this enterprise; is anyone else interested in helping?
My first thought is that there is room for a lot of disagreement about the quality of a book. Deej likes 'The line of beauty' and Marc and I are less impressed, for example, so maybe we should reflect this by allowing multiple short reviews instead of trying to be balanced in a single longer review.
I think the place to begin would be with a list of the books people think are worth reviewing.
What do you all think about it?
Love,
Anthony
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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True enough....
But it doesnt alter the fact that the story is crap...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
True enough.... But it doesnt alter the fact that the story is crap...
There is an Israeli adage: "no point in arguing about taste or smell" [because each of us experiences them differently].
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Dear JFR,
Actually no-one can tell because no-one can get into anyone else's head and experience their sensations.
Karl Popper distinguished between three worlds:
World 1 which is the real world and everything in it.
World 2 which is the contents of the human mind And each of us has experience of only one world 2 and can have no experience of any other.
World 3 which is the constructs of the human mind and that includes all the knowledge that is passed from one to another, It includes all the meanings in books and music and pictures and movies (of course the things - books, music, pictures, and movies - themselves are in world 1) and that is how the sum of human knowledge grows and how it came about that we can learn what Euclid taught and so on . . . This world also includes all errors, all mistakes, lies, frauds and many other things that are not good.
I have found that thinking of the three worlds helps me to get my mind clear about some knotty problems.
Love,
Anthony
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Odd how points of view are often influenced by the place from which we make observations.
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Thank you, JFR.
The principal story arc in 'The Line of Beauty' is not a gay one. It reflects the character of the protagonist and the shallowness and hypocrisy of the society which he enters. Personally, I didn't like any of the characters very much. Gay romance it is not, and if that is what you were looking for you'd undoubtedly be disappointed.
The novel is a series of loosely connected vignettes in which the texture is more important than the story. Again, if you were looking for strong linking narrative, you'd also be disappointed.
Personally, Marc, I'm surprised that someone who professes a love of literature apparently believes that 'the story is crap' is an adequate dismissal for any piece of work. It's entirely subjective and hardly clinches any argument.
David
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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I agree with JFR's opinion of Grasshopper's "Darkfall". And if I enjoy a story I always let the Author know.
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>I wish I could read books like The Line of Beauty now, but there's no place for me to hide things from my mom.
If I recall, the books offered through Amazon have pictures of their covers. This would give you the opportunity to see if they would attract your Mom's attention or not. When placed with a stack of library books and school books, are they likely to draw any interest? The best place to hide a thing is in plain sight. And when it's read, donate it anonymously to the library (which may also be a source for reading material).
I used to put a cover from a different book on something I didn't want my folks to know I was reading. After all, I can't imagine your Mom thumbing through a math book.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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Zambezi
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Various (!)
Registered: January 2004
Messages: 40
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I'm not convinced that the difference now is that homosexuality is not such a big deal any more although to an extent you are right Timmy. Someone in their mid teens in Britain has been through their entire education under a Labour government - no section 28, all the guff about equality and diversity that gives me such a ball-ache at work etc etc etc.
What makes such a huge difference IMHO compared to when this site first started, and even when my stories were published four years ago, is the plethora of alternatives to contacting other gay people on the net. When you and I first met, Tim, it was 2000 and the good old days of TBA. Getting to know people through emailing via a message board was about as good as it got. There may have been instant messaging services like ICQ, but with old dial-up net connections it was a bit hit and miss and not for the faint hearted if you paid by the minute.
Nowadays there is bebo, facebook, myspace and Lord knows what else that all the kids seem to use to meet other people, backed up by rather better messaging systems. Yes, it's a lot easier to be open about having gay friends, but it's the technology that has made it possible, and allows your average lonely gay kid to be more discerning with whoever he initiates contact.
It's probably also worth mentioning that the vast majority of mail my stories produced came from adults anyway, not kids.
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you.
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