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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Angels. Those interesting beings who hung around at the time of Mary and Yussuf. How did Mary KNOW it was a real angel?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Ok, lets try and get a perspective on this. First the Hewbrew meaning of Angel means messenger. Technically anyone bringing a message from god is an angel. We also have an image of angels being these cute little cherubic being with soft plump bodies and cute little wings. In the book of Daniel he gives a discription of an angel, Gabriel to be exact, skin like bronze, eyes fashing fire, built like a Spartan warrior, and carrying a sword. Im sure because of the supernatural eliment Marry would have known an angel when she saw one. Abraham immediately recognized the angels going to Sodom. Of course the guy telling the story had a reason that people should recognize angels, wheather they actually did or not will never be known.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Cuz he said so......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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"Hello, little child. I'm an angel. This will be our secret...." seems about 'right' to me
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Your description sounds very bed-worthy!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Let me preface my comments with the honest disclosure that I am not now, never have been and have no intention of ever becoming a Christian. Having said that, I must say that I find Timmy's question rather unfair. All religions have 'founding myths', and this is one of them. I honestly don't think that the veracity or credibility of Christianity depends on the doctrine of the Virgin Birth. Christianity stands or falls on the doctrine of the Resurrection.
It is quite clear from the New Testament itself that Jesus belonged to a normative family. Let's leave aside for the moment that Matthew and Luke cannot agree on a correct genealogical tree for Joseph, Jesus' father. Jesus had four brothers and an unknown number of sisters. Now, Christian dogma claims that Mary was eternally virgin ("semper virgo"): were these brothers and sisters also conceived and born by parthenogenesis?
Since we have mentioned Jesus' family, and since it is a generally accepted axiom that the members of one's family know one best of all, it is not perhaps out of order to note that Jesus' family that that he was stark raving bonkers!
J F R (busy donning his asbestos garb).
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Dear Timmy,
Who says she KNEW? Can you know something that is impossible (know that2+2=5)?
Can one know something that is false (know that London is the capital of France)? Does it make any difference if the knower is imaginary?
What would count as a good reason for believing such a statement? Could anyone be justified in believing such a thing? When you believe something and think you have good grounds for believing it do you then 'know' it?
1 there is no angel
2 only a hallucination could make you think there is one
Love,
Anthony
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dunfyn
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Getting started |
Registered: November 2005
Messages: 16
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As I understand, Joseph had several children from his previous marriage. They were step-children of Mary who had just one child of her own.
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Biblical source, please.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Actually there is no biblical source. There are other sources which indicate that Jesus had brothers and sister of the same parents. The step Brother and sister thing is something the Catholics dreamed up to explain away the odd references to Jesus having brothers and sisters. There is also the Book of Thomas which opens, "I am Thomas, brother of Jesus". This book was not included in the Vulgate (which later became the King James version), but it has as much right to be there as other books which were left out.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If Mary simply said the guy was an angel that means she may also have used that as an excuse for hanky panky leading to childbirth. So that provides a conundrum.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Thank you, Roger, for your confirmation.
So, Jesus had siblings. Did they too arrive in this world via parthenogenesis?
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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dunfyn
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Getting started |
Registered: November 2005
Messages: 16
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Canonical Gospels do not say much about Joseph, but I was referring to The History of Joseph the Carpenter, which is part of early Christian tradition.
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dunfyn wrote:
I was referring to The History of Joseph the Carpenter, which is part of early Christian tradition.
The story of the virgin birth and the story of the resurrection are also part of the early Christian tradition. If the History of Joseph is "valid" why was it not included in the New Testament canon? If it is not valid what is its use to our discussion?
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Actually the bible does not say Joseph was a carpenter. I forget the Hewbrew word, but the literal translation is "someone who works with their hands". This could have been anything in the manual labor dept. It is interesting to note that marry's family was very wealthy. Remember Jesus' uncle was a member of the Jewish ruling council. Marry was also decended from the ruling house of David.
Only Jesus is listed as a virgin birth. No reference is made to the birth of the others. A lot of things are Christian tradition which have no basis in fact or writing.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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dunfyn
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Getting started |
Registered: November 2005
Messages: 16
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The Gospels are essentially accounts of the life and acts of Jesus. Story of the Joseph's first marriage is hardly consequential to to the events of Jesus' life. Viewing New testament as the only 'valid' scripture would be simplification. By the way apocryphal Gospel of Thomas was mentioned here just a few posts above, oddly nobody questioned its 'validity.'
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Roger, once again thank you for these insights.
You wrote: Actually the bible does not say Joseph was a carpenter. I forget the Hebrew word, but the literal translation is "someone who works with their hands".
Could you please explain this for me: the New Testament has only come down to us in Greek, so wouldn't any Hebrew be irrelevant?
It is interesting to note that Mary's family was very wealthy. Can you give a reference for this, please?
Remember Jesus' uncle was a member of the Jewish ruling council. Also for this.
Mary was also decended from the ruling house of David.
Even if this could be verified it would make no difference because inheritance and tribal affiliation were (and still are) passed down the generations from the father, not the mother, among the Jews.
J F R
[Updated on: Thu, 27 March 2008 15:41]
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Unless something drastic has changed the the lenage is passed down thru the mother. Also, at the time of Jesus and befor the hebrews were the only nation that alowed the women to inherit.
Jesus' uncle was Joseph of Aramathia. He was a member of the Jewish council and was a tin merchant and owned a fleet of ships. He is also the one who gave the stone cut tomb to bury Jesus in.
In the Old testament it is plainly stated that Marry was decended from David. This is where Jesus gets his right to be named King, he also gets his rights as a priest after the rank of Machezedec, the father of all priest, who by the way was Shem, son of Noah and priest of the most high god.
Im looking thru my book and im pretty sure the word was greek, so that is my bad. Also want to point out that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not alive during the time of Jesus. The earliest book was written 30 years after his death.
Oh and you are right, Christianity stands or falls on one point, the death and resurrection of Christ, everything else is unimportant.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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Ok that was my bad. The Greek word was Tektwv, meaning a skilled Chraftsman. The english translators decided to use the workd carpenter.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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Altho in The Catholic tradition Joseph is said to be deciended from David, there is no geneology to support this. There is eve some confusion as to who his father was, it was either Jacob or Heli so go figure. There are other books that give some insight into things like this, but unfortunately most never read them.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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Here is a book review and a synopsis of how this author has traced the writings of the gospels. This doesn't come from the most reliable source and I'm not claiming any of this as fact but simply as something interesting to contemplate.
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/review.cfm?rtype=22
There are two pages.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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Roger,
In all matters concerning Christian theology and the New Testament I willingly bow to your expert knowledge. But with regards to matters Jewish I hope I know better than you. You wrote: the lenage is passed down thru the mother.
Absolutely and unequivocally not. Only membership of the Jewish people is passed through the maternal line; everything else - including inheritance - is passed through the paternal line.
Also, at the time of Jesus and befor the hebrews were the only nation that alowed the women to inherit.
If a man died without male issue his daughters were his heirs but they were restricted to marriage within the same tribe.
Jesus' uncle was Joseph of Aramathia. He was a member of the Jewish council and was a tin merchant and owned a fleet of ships.
This is very interesting. Do you have a source for this for me?
In the Old testament it is plainly stated that Mary was decended from David. Where?
This is where Jesus gets his right to be named King, he also gets his rights as a priest after the rank of Machezedec, the father of all priest, who by the way was Shem, son of Noah and priest of the most high god.
You (or your source) are confusing several things here. If Jesus was descended from David he could not also have been a legitimate priest because all priests had to be descended from the line of Aaron. (David and his descendants were from the tribe of Judah and Aaron and his descendants from the tribe of Levi.)
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I agree that you probably know much more about things Jewish than I do. The deal with Marry and Joseph is very twisted and there are books which are both pro and con about lienage, However I will derfer to you because nothing is clear cut on the subject.
If you read the New Testament Jesus was made a priest by the authority of Malchezadec, The FATHER OF ALL PRIEST. This is how they get around the tribe of Levi.
Joseph of Aramathia is a historical figure and not some person lost in the anals of time. It is well known that he owned Tin mines throuout known Europe and even in England. He owned a fleet of ships and was a very wealthy man. Like I said there are other books besides the Bible.
For a long time there was debate wheather Potius Pilot existed. Sure enough there are other writting where he is mentioned. He retired as governor of Judea and built a villa in Southern France and retired and lived out his life there.
It was my understanding that the hewbrews were the only tribe that alowed inheritance by the females in the trib and geneology could be passed down thru them. The King of Babylon had the King of Isreal killed and all his male decendants killed in order to cut off the ruling line, (the line of David). Jeramia left with the daughters of the king and the line continued thru them. However I am not an expert in geneology and dont claim to be. Im only going by what I have read in different sources.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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ProfZodiac
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Likes it here |
Location: United States
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 115
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The Catholic tradition?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%201
Matthew chapter one of the NIV. Which, for the record, is not a Biblical translation used by the Catholic Church.
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew1.htm
Matthew chapter one of the NAB, the accepted Bible for American Catholics. It, too, establishes the lineage of Christ through Joseph and back to King David.
I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the idea that it is Mary who is descended from King David.
---
I would also like to note that to say that none of the evangelists were alive during Christ's life is inaccurate. None of them were written during that time, but the Gospel of Mark, the story goes, was written by the interpreter of the disciple Peter, who was most definitely alive during Christ's life. It stands to reason that Mark's own life may have overlapped with Christ's.
---
Noncanonical texts cannot be assumed inaccurate based on their noncanonicity. The early Church chose the texts it felt would best suit its established viewpoints, excluding all others. This isn't to say the others were false. The gnostic Gospel of Thomas, for example, meshes to an extent with the canonical gospels.
Anyway, I just thought I'd contribute this.
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No Theology is absolute. Even the best Theologins cant agree on everything. There are book gathering dust in the back of university libraries, that if you got them and read them your hair would curl. I said, none of the books were written at the time Jesus lived. The date of the earliest manuscript is up for debat.
There are manuscripts and books in the Vatacin library that are under papal seal. To be honest I think there are writtings there that would cause a good Christian to loose faith.
Christianity stands or falls on one point, did Jesus rise from the grave? Its as simple as that. Nothing else really maters.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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Let's be honest. If anyone heard any of the so-called "Christian" myths with the names of the characters changed, and the location changed, they would be written off as superstitions like we now write off Greco-Roman mythology.
Women can't have children unless they get fucked, or at least get some cum deposited on their pussy-lips or inside them somehow. you can't cure people by putting your hands on them. Dead people do not suddenly return to life, and their bodies do not levitate into the air so that two thousand years later they can become menaces to air traffic navigation.
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*throws idea around the the who holy spirit bit is just a fancy way of saying a giant spirit penis or a drug induced fucking
*by drugs i mean like they wouldnt know what certain herbs would do to them*
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Oh dear, Jon, you're going to burn in Hell now. Just you mark my words.
Btw, is 'bogus' the singular of 'bogey'?
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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