|
|
|
|
To assist in gaining some knowledge of the real conditions in RSA, I would like to write privately to any gentlemen living there. The vision presented in class today was that the country which everyone pinned such hopes for multi-racialism and progressive democratic government ten years ago is slipping into a Mugabe/Zimbabwean dictatorship. The infrastructure is said to be crumbling, the courts and newpapers are said to be under increasing "supervision" and the place is basically coming apart. Eldon maintains this is yet another example of the inferiority of the black race and their inability to govern themselves, even when presented with a functioning and industrialized country. Was the country really better off under apartheid? I have to debate this in two weeks from the side of the current government. I have to get my heart into this if I'm going to do a good job.
You know, I really try hard not to be prejudiced, but the films and reports we saw today were pretty damning towards the black leadership. Africa is a cesspool, on that Eldon and I agree, but I thought at least RSA could become an example, and instead it seems to be sinking to the level of Zimbabwe. Remember "White" Rhodesia? Contrast it with "Black" Zimbabwe. Eldon says... well, never mind.
Serious stuff only, okay? whitewaterkid at gmail dot com
[Updated on: Tue, 01 April 2008 20:38] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear Jon,
Do you really think that Mbeki's denial that HIV causes AIDS is that much worse than Bush deliberately deceiving himself and many others about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction? I wonder which of them has caused more people to die.
Most governments are criminal and those in poor places are not much worse than the rest: it's just that the consequences of corruption are so much more direct and immediate when poverty is so much more widespread.
The truth is that democracy is not enough - without widespread agreement about what makes for a good life a democracy can just become another sort of tyranny. Consider how in our democracies not that long ago people were imprisoned for homosexual acts. What we actually rely on is a huge number of people who want to live their lives being nice to other people and telling the truth and ... and ... and!
I haven't time this evening to redesign the world.
Love,
Anthony
PS Sorry! Africa and South America are the two continents I've never set foot on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
 |
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
A functioning and industrialised country?
Never been to South Africa, but I was under the impression that it was a pretty damn poor place to live (unless you were white) prior to the abolition of apartheid.
To be honest though that doesn't mean the current government deserves our praise. I think, though, that the problem lies more in socialist, centralising policies than the race of the current government. If Africa is to pull itself out of poverty it'll do it through a free-market model, not through a socialist model. Look at the difference between North and South Korea; China 20 years ago and China now; Malaysia; Singapore; Hong Kong. Capitalism and free markets solve poverty- they may not solve inequality; but I'd rather an unequal nation with only 10% of the population in poverty than an equal nation with 90% of the population in poverty.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
another example of the inferiority of the black race and their inability to govern themselves, even when presented with a functioning and industrialized country.
It never ceases to amaze me....
This has to be about the most bigoted statement I have seen or heard in 30 years....
Freaking wonderful....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
It may appear bigoted, but look hard at the facts. Those are bigoted too, in their way.
Kenya was once a shining light of a working African democracy. What just happened there?
If it is not inability then it must be malice in the leadership, surely?
We cannot avoid the apparent evidence of news bulletins when we form our views.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anybody remember Jimmy the Greek? He was labled a bigot and racest because he made one mistake, He told the truth. The blacks dont want to face the truth and your a bigot if you start telling the facts.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hey Donny you bigotted son-of-a-gun! Hear that! I guess calling the coal black is no longer being politically correct either.
We only call 'em as we see 'em Marc. I guess when we've dumbed-down the country so far to make everyone "equal" and to make them feel good about themselves, we'll sit up and wonder how the country got to be a second-rate nation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
After spending most of my homework time last night researching both Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and Apartheid/Post-apartheid South Africa, I came to the conclusion that both were better off under white rule. Sorry men, that's how I feel. So I told my teacher this morning that I couldn't argue a point I no longer agree with, so got on the other side with Eldon The Bigot. ROFLMAO.
Thanks to those dudes who wrote. I'll write back soon as possible.
ONS VIR JOU SUID-AFRIKA!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
they are as they are
and personally if they'd stay to their area and stop corrupting school and education with their "gang culture" they think is so cool but really pisses people of
the world would be a better place
not that i am racist but their actions annoy me
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Over the last forty years we have been subjected to so much propaganda concerning race that the subject had become a no-go area. In that time two generations have grown up under that propaganda and it has become a so-called undeniable tenet of modern society. People even give you a strange look if you dare to question it.
Btw I am not a racist, but I may well be culturalist in believing that my own culture (in theory at least) is superior.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
The sad thing is that those with the so called advantages and elitist privileges should use their advantages for something better than putting people down for no reason other than their color...
This country is second rate because of thinking that margenalizes people...
Actually... Has it ever been first rate?
I'm not so sure....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
If their actions annoy you then don't pay any attention to them.... If there is no audience there is usually no performers......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I just wanted to say that I am very surprised that a school would have the courage to choose such a controversial topic for a debate. Those on your side of the debate may even be placing yourselves in danger. I hope adequate safeguards are being taken.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, I might be politically a bit liberal, but I believe our country has been first rate, and is still first rate. If it were not so, then people would be clamoring to leave rather than clamoring to get in.
I don't put people down simply because they happen to be a different color. I work hard for what I have, and expect to work hard all my life for what I have and what I want this place to become. Nobody gave me anything other than opportunity. Nobody gave Jon anything either. We both work.
I have an honest and realistic approach to the race question. I know my opinions aren't politically correct, and aren't even popular. But eventually the truth must be faced in this country, and it must be faced everywhere else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
But is your truth the real truth?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ok, guess Ill put my two cents in. That debate would never happen at my school. Mostly because the powers that be wouldnt allow it. Not just because of the uproar it would create but also because a lot of facts would be spoken that certain people dont want to hear.
The great African black cultures that have existed thru history were not founded by blacks. They were founded by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Egyptians. When the foreigners left for whatever reason and the Africans took over the culture and civilization collapsed. In modern days the cities and nations that were founded and built by the French, English, and Dutch florished. As soon as the Africans took over everything began to collapse and become corrupt.
Go ahead call me a bigot if you want to. I know this, I treat people the way they treat me, if thats not good enough then to hell with it.
There are even black people in places of power who are beginning to look around and question whats happening. Even Bill Cosby is questioning his own race. He is very adament that "ITS NOT THE WHITE MANS FAULT, ITS OUR FAULT". Its easier to blame someone else for your shortcommings than it is to blame yourself.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Very well put, Curtis. I agree 100%. Since moving from Boston to Florida 3 years ago, I can find no fault with Eldon's or Jon's observations. Sadly, they are right on the money. It is not bigotry, nor is it ignorance. Just plain hard facts. I know, I see it every day down here. They don't need an audiance either, they just don't care or respect those around them.
~aqua~
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A bigot is someone who hates a person of another race.
A person who believes in the inherent superiority of a particular race over another is a racist.
So, apparently, we have a few gay racists on the board....amazing.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Who is "they"?
I see people as individuals, not as groups.
I am gay, one of many, a group of individuals that are all different. The only thing I share with a lot of you guys is that we both like cock (thank god for that).
Some here may be sluts, some may be 100% committed, should everyone be tarred with the same brush because of ONE visible part of a very large "group"?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Better for who?
How would the white governments have dealt with AIDS?
Is it a matter of race or political ideology?
Again I point at North and South Korea- looking solely at North Korea you'd assume Koreans are incapable of governing themselves. Looking at South Korea you'd think the opposite. It is less about race and more about politics, surely.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Isn't a bigot someone who will not even entertain listening to or tolerating someone else's ideas?
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, Jon,
You may be right (I think you are) that Rhodesia and maybe even RSA were better off under white rule, but you surely won't deny that white rule was pernicious in its racism.
When white superiority and apartheid were brought to an end the legacy of bitterness couldn't disappear overnight however hard Mandela tried in RSA. In Zimbabwe Robert Mugabe doesn't seem to me to have tried. We are now hearing that right from the start of his period in power he seems to have been willing to have people murdered to further his aims.
And there lies the problem. How do you find out whether a leader will murder to further his aims and how do you prevent such a leader from getting power? It isn't democracy that matters it's having sufficient institutions and people to support them and the rules they were based on so that the government can be changed without bloodshed.
It's when a military dictator starts to do away with such institutions (as Mubarak has been doing by sacking judges in Pakistan) that the stability of society is threatened and in particular that it begins to look impossible to change a government without bloodshed.
And, of course, it was because they didn't realise this that Bush and Blair have made such a dreadful mess of Iraq. Most Iraqis would (& do) say that life under the frequently unjust law of Hussein was better that life in the largely lawless Iraq of today. (And that's not taking into account what all the dead people would have to say about it!)
But I thought the point of a debating society was to learn how to defend (or propose) points of view that you didn't agree with.
Love,
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This isn't really a debate in the classic sense. It's the AP class divided into two groups to collect facts and cite sources then offer group presentations with questions and discussions afterwards. Believe me, this could ONLY happen here in an AP / Dual Enrollment class. I don't even know if the school administration knows about it. It's in the class syllabus so they probably do know, and are giving this class the latitude because of what the class is and those who are in it. This is part of the unit on the end of the colonial era and it's effect on Europe. This whole class has been interesting from the beginning, and the one leading up to it last semester called Modern Europe, 1870-1919 was even better. The reading list is ferocious though and some nights it's literally the midnight oil that's burning. Eldon has a mild form of dyslexia and when he gets tired it gives him trouble, so the reading requirements are doubly difficult for him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Whitewaterkid wrote:
This whole class has been interesting from the beginning, and the one leading up to it last semester called Modern Europe, 1870-1919 was even better.
Oh boy! 1919 is modern Europe??????? Is President Woodrow Wilson modern America?
J F R
[Updated on: Thu, 03 April 2008 12:22]
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, JFR, of course!
The boundaries between ancient history and history and between history and modern history are bound to change. History used to become 'modern' at 1870 when I was at school, probably because there people about who could remember 1870. Now the change is at 1914. Before long it will be at 1939. I can remember I was riding my tricycle round the yard outside the back door of my aunt's house when my grandmother came out - all serious - and told me that something terrible was going to happen to the world. She had just heard it on the news!
It's areasonable boundary: history is what nobody can remember.
Actually I wonder if the ancient history/history boundary will ever change.
Love,
Anthony
(one-time Scholar in History at Oriel College, Oxford)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Who am I to contradict an Oxonian historian? I only did history to A-level (in 1960). Our text book "Modern Europe" covered the period from 1870 to 1945. The last item in the book (which I still have!) was about the atom bomb.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's funny that every generation has a "benchmark" in history that everyone remembers. Like my grandparents remember exactly what they were doing when they heard the news about Pearl Harbor. My parents remamber exactly what they were doing when they heard the news about President Kennedy having been killed. We remember what we were doing when the World Trade Center towers were destroyed. I wonder if the pre-instant-communications generations had benchmarks like these? When news traveled slower.
I love "Media Center Research Time!!" Like having a license to goof off!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear JFR,
Well I only did history to A level. It's just that I won a scholarship. Then I studied Politics Philosophy and Economics (PPE).
Don't let the huge prestige of Oxford persuade you to give way to an old fool.
I really am no better than anyone else! And in matters of the heart I am probably rather worse than average!
Love,
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oh Jon,
Not for me I'm afraid. No vibes at all.
Love
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear Jon,
Better, distinctly approaching good. You need to try a bit harder!!
Love,
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
When I did history in the 4th form, "modern" history was called such in distinction from "mediaeval", and so dated from the Battle of Bosworth. 1485, if I remember correctly. Not even our teaching staff claimed to remember that far back!
The history I studied for 'O' level (which I sat in 1970) was called "World 20th Century" and covered 1901-1960.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I may be speaking out of turn or stating the obvious, but I'm not sure it is clear in the thread who the Afrikaaners are. They are the white South Africans of Dutch extraction whose mother tongue is Afrikaans. Afrikaans developed from Dutch although the Dutch themselves will say that it sounds like baby talk in Dutch. I am not in a position to judge. Under apartheid it was the Afrikaaners who held political power backed by the Dutch Reformed (Reform?) Church. The Afrikaaners are sometimes referred to as Boers as in the Boer War. The rest of the white population is largely of British extraction and speak English as their first language.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have discovered in researching this whole issue that Afrikaans is a distinct language with it's own grammar and spelling and dictionaries and everything else. It derives mainly from high Dutch as spoken in the seventeenth century, with additions and alterations from English and various African languages. I don't think it's particularly fair of the modern Netherlanders to call it Dutch baby talk, but it might sound like it to them. I've listened to speech and music of both languages, and you can hear the similarities and also the differences. Afrikaans seems less guttural and softer. Modern Dutch has the ij vowels sounding like "aye" and Afrikaans has I think "y" which replaces that. There are other differences of course.
The British remaining in RSA seem to be politically moderate and the Afrikaaners a little more reactionary. Some of the Afrikaans political groups are close to Neo-Nazi in their racial attitudes. This might be troublesome in the future.
The best hope for RSA seems to me to be with the Democratic Alliance which is progressive and the fastest growing party in the country.
Sorry about the lecture. I get hooked on these odd interests and pursue them into the ground.
[Updated on: Fri, 04 April 2008 20:57] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon, to add to your experience try to listen to the Dutch from Flanders (Belgium). You will find it more nasal and less guttural than the Dutch of the Netherlands. The official name of the language in both countries is Nederlands.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
|
|
|
|
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
