|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
I'm putting this up for discussion.
For a long time I've held the view that a great deal of the acceptance of homosexuality has come about, certainly in the UK, because of popular figures, though not celebrities, being "funny and thus inoffensive" and acting in outrageously camp ways on TV or radio.
I'm thinking here of people including:- Kenneth Williams
- Charles Hawtree
- John Inman
- Frankie Howerd
- Kenny Everett
(forgive incorrect spellings, I'll look them up later.
In the US the awful "Will and Grace" does a similar job, by making Will look inoffensive, a figure of ridicule. It's hard to laugh at one character and then despise a group. Thus we make progress through humour, perhaps more progress than we can make through our own voices.
As an example, UK husbands and housewives used to laugh at and adore Kenneth Williams in "Round the Horne" and "Beyond our Ken" on the radio in the 1950s, and started tacitly to accept homosexual characters. His routine included an amazingly camp and pretty explicit scene with two outrageously queer characters, Julian and Sandy, with awful double entendres. Each 30 minute radio variety show included on such extravagant scene.
So, tell me what you think...
[Updated on: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:41]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
I am specifically considering comedy here. While Ellen Degeneres and Elton John are doubtless influential, they are better used as role models. The general heterosexual populace doesn't much care whether these celebs are gay or not, they can ignore it in a very bizarre manner.
A comedian is "in your face" and often self ridiculing, and it seems to me that it is by ridicule that acceptance happens. In the end people seem to associate comedic ridicule with acceptability.
The gay celebs are a "follow-on act" in that their homosexuality is acceptable because the way was paved by the comedians.
A weird side issue is that coming out as gay seems to do a pop star a great career favour - almost as good a career boost as Jim Reeves gained by dying!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
 |
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
I agree with you Timmy. Most of the time when a bigoted person, or someone leaning in that direction, has cause to pause and rethink their attitude it is a plus.
I also think that the world's youth has played a major role in the gradual change of social attitudes towards gays, and anyone else who is different, over that last few decades.
JimB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ellen Degeneres
comedian and world's favorite lesbian
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Here she comes over as talk show host and celeb, not a comedian. My error.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
The world's youth are not as tolerant as you hope. Islam teaches against it and many of Islam's youth are fundamentalists. However, in nations where religion is less dominant I agree that youth takes the baton forwards and, as it ages, passes the challenge to the next set that is youth.
Yet middle aged housewives laughed happily at Kenneth Williams and his outrageously camp sketches. And there is the core influence for the "today" of the past.
I truly believe that the younger "team" we have here will build on the work that I was too cowardly to do, but that "my" generation did, and create even more rights and freedoms. Battles are won, yes, but the war is not. And comedy plays a huge part. Even redneck men laugh at Will and Grace.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
No error...
She wasn't funny when she had a comedy series and she got less funny when she got a talk show...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Larry Grayson and Julian Clary come to mind.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
I would say "yes" for Grayson, but Clary was after what I perceive as the effect of comedy.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm going to have to disagree with the apparent majority here. I don't think that the public acceptance of overtly camp comedians has done much - if anything - to help the acceptance of homosexuality. It's promoted a safe, in some ways "sexless" image of instantly-recognisable gay (almost-exclusively) men.
But that isn't, and never has been, the kind of gay men that straights feel threatened by. You know, the ones that you *can't* "tell a mile off". The ones that every day might be sitting next to you on the bus, or at work, or have married your sister ... or might even, at heart, be yourself.
And I don't think it's done much for a whole generation of gay kids growing up. Right up until four of five years ago, there was such a scarcity of role models for gay guys to aspire to that it's no wonder that so many people - both gay and straight - seemed to feel the the only choices were to be closeted, on the commercial "scene" or camp. It has been *massively* hard work being an out gay man that does not conform to any of these stereotypes for the past 30 years, and I certainly don't feel that people like Kenneth Williams did me any favours at all! (though I *do* find him funny). It's really only - in the UK, anyway - in the past five years or so that public perception has started to get its head round the idea of people in the public eye who happen to have same-sex partners.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
While I agree with much of what you say, I think that the camp comics have helped precisely because they are not a threat. They allow the nervous heterosexual to see gay men as nonthreatening. That's where Kenneth Williams and John Inman came into their own in terms of usefulness.
This then extends to the chap who married your sister.
I think we moved from needing comedians to needing role models at least 15 years before the role models arrived (though we each needed individual role models, I mean the "community as a whole" needed them in order to become comfortable)
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
It is always so easy to this or that is a great boon or advance for the gay community...
But to actually know what is a step forward one must be walking the path...
It can't be done from a computer keyboard, it cant be done behind closed doors...
It had to be weighed by experiences and results...
Has there been progress? Of course there has...
But for who? Be honest... Tell me, for who?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
The answer, when you ask for whom the progress has been, is for those individuals who realise that there is progress and choose to take advantage of it. It took me years to notice the progress and years more to start to take advantage of the little I take advantage of.
I'm looking at causative agents. Not triggers, but continuing causative agents for change and progress.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
True, but one must first recognize the progress for what it is as well as how it places an advantage at hand.
Is this progress personal or universally expansive across the gay agenda?
Does progress in one country translate to progress to all countries?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Marc wrote:
> True, but one must first recognize the progress for what it is as well as how it places an advantage at hand.
>
> Is this progress personal or universally expansive across the gay agenda?
I am truly not sure what the 'gay agenda' is
>
> Does progress in one country translate to progress to all countries?
No. In Islamic states, for instance, there is almost zero progress.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
The gay agenda is to live seemlessly alongside the straight agenda...
Unilateral equality.
Nothing more... but then... nothing less.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
unsui
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
|
|
|
No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 19:30] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
unsui
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
|
|
|
No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 18:22] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Let me pose a somewhat related example. Amos and Andy were radio and later television comedians in the States in the 40s and 50s. They portrayed stereotyped Negro buffoons, complete with wide eyes and illiterate speech, and they were wildly popular. I would not say that they helped Americans view blacks as non-threatening; rather, I think they helped many Americans feel at ease about considering blacks to be inferior and objects of ridicule. Do camp comedians induce people to view gays as non-threatening or instead reinforce views that gays can be objects of ridicule?
Far more subtle and influential at breaking down American resistance to blacks, in my mind, were the actors who portrayed "normal" guys alongside white "normal" guys, one of the earliest being Bill Cosby in the TV show "I Spy" in the mid-60s. I don't watch television much anymore, and I don't know whether any popular shows today have "normal" guys in major roles who happen to be gay. The last show I watched religiously was The West Wing, a high-brow, liberal-minded show that, as I recall, had no gay characters. Of course, as has been pointed out, you can't just look at a person and know whether s/he is gay as you can with most blacks, so presenting a character for whom gayness is just one of many traits requires clever script-writing.
We're not there yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
I see the progress as universally expansive across the gay agenda; it becomes personal when one takes advantage of it.
I would say that progress in one country DOES translate to progress in all countries because you have to consider the world-wide community and picture. It is true that the effects within certain countries may initially be imperceptible.
JimB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
How do you define a world wide community?
If it is just the fact that we all live on the same planet then I think that is not enough.
Unless a person is free to experience an advance then the advance is marginalized by its singularly unique set of circumstances.
In massachusetts gay marriage is legal, but I, as an out-of-state resident am prohibited from this advantage.
To them in massachusetts it is an advance, to me it has little more meaning than a news article.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
I see major differences, first that Amos and Andy were white, portraying a black stereotype http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_and_Andy.
Another major difference is that you can see who is black and who is not, but the man on the bus next to you may well be gay. While the two situations appear comparable, I'm not sure that they are truly similar enough to stand comparison.
I don't disagree about Bill Cosby and his like as good role models. I simply think that comes later. Cosby had us laugh about situations, not about ethnotypes, which was good. The campness in gay comedians gradually altered to be situational (and not camp), not character based, too. In 10 years a new Will and Grace would be entirely situational with a gay man, not a weird effeminate gay man playing gayness for laughs.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Thank you for that definition. I have heard so many definitions and this is the simplest and also the most far ranging.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Would you define a world wide community? Is there such a thing?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't know that I can contribute very much to this discussion because apart from Kenneth Williams I don't really have that much acquaintance with their oevre. I disagree with Timmy's analysis of the Williams/Paddick routine in Round the Horne. I think that people laughed at these sketches because what were portrayed were - as they thought - typical homos. In that sense these two gays (in the 60's) managed to confirm prejudices, not dissipate them.
In my country the drift towards gay acceptance grows - gradually, and not without setbacks - because several local pop stars came out of the closet. One of them, Ivri Lider, has become almost a gay icon and his popularity among youngsters has only increased since he came out. In that sense these artists are role models, and that is very positive.
Another factor in my country is the army. The moment the army declared that it made no difference what a soldier's sexual orientation was public opinion was positive affected (because the army is a revered institution). Conversely, the election of a gay member of the Knesset had no effect whatsoever - because politicians are the opposite of "a revered institution".
Just my two pennyworth.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy wrote:
> In 10 years a new Will and Grace would be entirely situational with a gay man, not a weird effeminate gay man playing gayness for laughs.
I don't think the transition from "laughing at" to "laughing with" is so easily made. Indeed, I think that "laughing at" - which is what I think straights do to classic gay stereotypes - serves only to re-inforce an image of *all* gay men as inherently less than straights, as inherently laughable, and I think it does a positive disservice to the battle for equality.
I know it can be argued that most comics portraying camp gay men were/are themselves gay, and were simply exploiting a straight audience.Many of them were also deeply hung up about their sexuality (Kenneth Williams certainly was!). Homophobia is no less damaging because it happens to have been internalised by many gay men (especially of our generation). I know it took me years to accept and enjoy camp gay friends ... I do often enjoy camp comedians. But I don't think they usually advance gay equality, and some - the John Inman character on "Are you being served" for example - I think actually operate against the long-term objective of being gay being unremarkable.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
You make a strong point, yet equality is very different from acceptability. There is a huge journey from acceptable to equal.
[Updated on: Mon, 19 May 2008 09:37]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy wrote:
> You make a strong point, yet equality is very different from acceptability. There is a huge journey from acceptable to equal.
Ah, I see.
But what you see as "acceptability", I don't: it might be acceptable to straight society, but it isn't to me! I've served my time as the token out gay man on more committees than I can remember, and I'm no longer happy to be merely a tribute to the tolerance of others in kindly permitting me to participate. Either I earn participation on my own merits, or I don't: my sexuality is irrelevant. I increasingly feel that to be treated in any special way, either positively or negatively, is patronising, and being patronised to me is not being accepted.
I'm not aiming for "I've got lots of really good gay friends, but I wouldn't want my son to be one" !
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
You held a torch aloft and ran with it. Without those such as you we would not be as far as we are now.
The place I'm starting from is the dawn of the acceptability of even mentioning homosexuality, not really yet even the acceptability of it. I'm looking at the ongoing causative events that led to the change of attitude towards acceptability - a journey in itself.
I believe that comedy, for all it ridicules, does not marginalise. Instead it makes things commonplace. That does not meat that we, the subjects of the comedy, do not find the comedy itself offensive at times.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
In as much as thw world wide web, instant communacations, up-to-the-second news, and jet travel has contributed to make our world more accessable than ever before we still do not have a true global community.
As long as there exists distinctive differences regarding social stratification, wealth, land ownership, availability of education, the possibility of living a life without fear that personal beliefs or lifestyle will create a personal danger, there is no global community.
In effect, no one is free until everyone is free.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
Marc wrote-- "How do you define a world wide community?"
A world-wide community is made of like-thinking people from disparate parts of our planet. There are many and communications technology advances make them more significant (more workable) every day.
Timmy wrote-- "Would you devine a world wide community? Is there such a thing?"
You guys need to loosen your definition of community, as in "2. a society of people having common rights and privileges, or common interests ...". The community need not be contiguous geographically.
Mark wrote-- "Unless a person is free to experience an advance then the adance is marginalized by its singularly unique set of circumstances."
Indeed, perhaps to the point of being impreceptible. It is important to acknowledge the over-all total of numerous advances. The goal is to tear down the wall; the advance is one brick.
Mark wrote-- "To them in Massachusetts it is an advance, to me it has little more meaning than a new atricle."
You have not made it personal (not that you should, just a statement of fact). Everyday there are many advances that don't directly or immediately impact our lives; sometimes it takes several to produce a noticable change.
JimB
[Updated on: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:08] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
That is one point of view of course...
I prefer to tally the results when the everything is all said and done.
Umtil then it's just all lip action...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
You could chart progress, though.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Me????
Like I have time for that..... LOL.....
But anyone that has the time is more than welcome to do it.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The radio show actors were white, but the TV show actors were black.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
I am wholly unfamiliar with the show. I would imagine the black actors were simply earning a much needed crust. I suspect that the parts for serious black portrayal were few and far between.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy wrote:
> I'm looking at the ongoing causative events that led to the change of attitude towards acceptability - a journey in itself.
I think we'll have to agree to differ on this. I honestly don't think that camp comedians have helped - I think they've hindered. For me, credit goes initially to those who have been unflichingly open about their sexuality - the Peter Wildebloods and Quentin Crisps of this world. In the UK, these are the kind of people that we owe the 1967 partial legalisation to - which was, at the time, not in any way an "acceptance" of gay men, merely a recognition that it was a waste of police time to prosecute them.
Secondly, to all those in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s who quietly got on with their lives, making no secret of their sexuality. Over time, almost everyone ended up knowing someone who they eventually knew to be gay, as a colleague, friend, customer, family member, whatever. This personal experience of the "average" gay guy is I think the greatest possible contribution to acceptability ... in some sense, I suppose that is how I've tried to live, and I've certainly been conscious of a certain pressure, of not being "allowed to fail", because for so many straight colleagues I was the only out gay man they knew, and I felt that they were judging gay men in general by my conduct. Thankfully, that's no longer the case!
I should stress that I didn't choose to live as a normal out gay guy because of this - I did it from my own selfish motives! But it would be nice to think that it had made a small contribution ...
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
The incremental advances that lead to noticable change are not lip action.
The effect of change by a group of people on people in another part of the world is not lip action.
Before it is all said and done, someone has provided an effort that provides for there to be results to tally.
JimB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Well, when the day is done, you give me the tally and tell me what advances are apparent.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yusime
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: United States
Registered: April 2008
Messages: 195
|
|
|
The character is gay but that is not his only concern he considers it important just does not let it define him. wish someone would post the entire story line on youtube. Characters name is Calvin and makes gays appear normal for the most part at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AwfHt-lipA
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him a spinal cord would suffice. Albert Einstein
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
