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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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When I created this forum I made a conscious decision not to turn anyone away if they were in pain, hurting, needing help, however awkward they made others feel, however combative they were, however difficult to deal with for some folks.
With two exceptions I have stuck to that self imposed set of values.
Doing that has by no means been easy, And during the time this forum has been here, under whatever software regime, I have received on occasion emails asking me to ban this or that person.
I have chosen not to act on those emails. I do not accept pressure at all. I listen to what folk have to say and explain that the running of this place is never going to please everyone and that I will always make mistakes.
Almost everyone needs the forum here more than the forum needs them. No. Everyone needs the forum more than it needs them, me included. I can think of no exceptions. Even the toughest, thickest skinned person is here because they perceive that they receive something of value from it. Many give much of value in return.
Maybe you are waiting for the 'but'. There isn't one.
Think about the effect, the huge effect, you have on others. When you are positive you are one of the most positive. nicest people I know. When you are down folk will put themselves out to help you.
When you are negative you are one of the most destructive people I know, and are mostly self destructive. And in this you pull the roof down not only on yourself, but on everyone else.
No-one has mentioned, for example, the Jerusalem Pride parade because you always find something unpleasant to say about it.
Our younger folks are intimidated by you. See any of them posting?
Some of our older folks don't want, much, to share a forum with you. See a few absentees?
No-one was pleased about your treatment of Jordan and his love life - a private matter raised in public.
You promise much about the tone of your posts and deliver it for a while. Then you revert.
Why have I not banned you after any of your odd outbursts? Go and re-read the first paragraph.
The weird and combative behaviours you so often exhibit are most assuredly not welcome. You are welcome, though. Just not those behaviours.
So please think, and think hard about how you behave, and how that behaviour is perceived by others. Blunt speaking is not a virtue. It is, almost always, damnably rude. And that makes people, many people, email me and ask why I do not ban you.
I have had enough of explaining this to people. I'm tired of doing it. So it is time you repaid everyone here by being a decent, upright, assertive but not aggressive citizen who does his best to get along while making sure his own opinions are heard.
What would you do in my place when faced with you as a challenge? What?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Friendship?
OK.... Though it is hard to see.
I am a blunt person. I have always been a blunt person. I say what i need to say in as few words as posible.
That is part of who I am and if others have a problem with that aspect of me then it is their problem not mine.
Do you know what irritates me....
When you... yes you say so often that "I am missing the point"
It is arrogant of you....
My point might not be alligned with yours, or anyone else for that matter...
How is it that you are empowered to establish what the point is?
How is mine any more or less valid than anyone elses?
Why don;t you just come right out and say that I am too stupid to understand and leave it at that?
many people, email me and ask why I do not ban you.... Do you think I don't know about this? I get them too you know.... whatever....
I give up....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I do care what irritates you.
What you need to help me with is something small seeming and also rather important.
As your friend I accept a lot from you, because we are friends. As the administrator of this forum there are things I am unable to accept. Please think hard about this. You need to help me here.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> I do care what irritates you.
>
> What you need to help me with is something small seeming and also rather important.
>
> As your friend I accept a lot from you, because we are friends. As the administrator of this forum there are things I am unable to accept. Please think hard about this. You need to help me here.
I don't understand...
Explain.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It is really very simple.
We are friends. I know that you can be an irascible old coot at times, a veritable curmudgeon. As your friend I have no issue with this. I accept it as part of you, I know you are, as I am, flawed, and I am able to ignore most of the parts that might otherwise cause me to become angry or upset. That is part of friendship. Indeed it is something that all others here can or should be doing if they have understood why the forum is here. And that is whether they are friends with you or not.
As the poor guy who set this place up I have a responsibility to the forum which does not sit easily alongside the norms of friendship. I cannot easily accept the curmudgeon because people, sometimes me included, become upset by the curmudgeonly behaviour.
I can't really explain it any better than that.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> It is really very simple.
If it were simple I wouldn't have asked... It is just that sort of statement, "It is really very simple" that I find offensive.... It implies that I can not articulate "a really veryu simple" concept.
>
> We are friends. I know that you can be an irascible old coot at times, a veritable curmudgeon. As your friend I have no issue with this. I accept it as part of you, I know you are, as I am, flawed, and I am able to ignore most of the parts that might otherwise cause me to become angry or upset. That is part of friendship. Indeed it is something that all others here can or should be doing if they have understood why the forum is here. And that is whether they are friends with you or not.
I most definatly resent the word "OLD"
>
> As the poor guy who set this place up I have a responsibility to the forum which does not sit easily alongside the norms of friendship. I cannot easily accept the curmudgeon because people, sometimes me included, become upset by the curmudgeonly behaviour.
>
> I can't really explain it any better than that.
you tell me that the young people avoid the board because of me....
You tell me the older guys avoid it also... because of me....
You tell me I should try and reach out... to try to make friends...
I try and also try to be on my best behavior... and I am still avoided like the plague.... the reality is that no good deed goes unpunished.... I will never reach out again....
Is this supposed to bolster my self image? If you think it does you're wrong.
ike i said. i give up
[Updated on: Mon, 30 June 2008 03:11]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I am not intending either to bolster or to destroy your self image. I'm sorry that you feel that what I have said has harmed it.
My use of the word "simple" was not intended to be patronising. Rather, it expresses my exasperation. I know you to be an educated and intelligent man. I know that your understanding is not in any way limited, that you read widely, and have more than a nodding acquaintance with deep philosophical texts.
I'm not about to get into an argument with you over this. I chose to sleep on my reply in order better to avoid an argument.
Yes, Marc. People avoid the forum because of the way you often behave. It's a fact. It distresses me to know this fact and it distresses me that I need to tell you this. Nonetheless the telling of it is important because it gives you the opportunity to make alterations to the behaviours that are not sociable and that seriously upset others.
The many injustices in your life are horrible. If there is an "average" level of happiness there must be many folk well above that average because of the evil things that have beset you and your loved ones. I know that one can never 'put them behind one' and that they affect us for ever. One thing that posting here ought to help is coping with challenges such as those. That is why it is here. For everyone.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Timmy & Marc,
I ask myself "Why do I stick with this site when there are so many others?" and "What do I get out of it?" and "What do I need?" and many times "What does this person need - why did he make that post?".
I try to be honest about my own feelings but I distrust myself. I try to be helpful and I offer things which try not to be the sort of advice that 'tells people what to do'.
I think it would be instructive if everyone thought about why they stay here and what they want to get out of it and maybe what they have to offer and told us.
Would it be appropriate to put these questions in a new thread?
I think I've convinced myself. I'll do it.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think JFR might have placed his post to you in a better place, Marc. Here for example, in this thread. Even so, I support his sentiments except this one:
> I hereby give due warning to you, to Timmy and to everyone else: one more example from you of cruel and hurtful verbal sniping that goes without a sincere apology or without just retribution from the owner and I am gone from here - and gone for good. The anguish is just not worth it.
I see why he says it, but I do not feel it is an appropriate solution, nor an appropriate reaction. I cannot be happy when anyone says "unless someone does [whatever] then I will leave". Such a sentiment is normal and natural enough, and, because the behaviours he quotes have tarnished the place for JFR I can see why he would want to leave. But I deprecate the threat of it.
I very much doubt that you want him to leave, either, yet he has given you no room to manouevre here. 'One Strike and he, not you, is out'.
So, now I am more between a rock and a hard place than ever. And, because this is about you, I think we would all like to know the positive steps that you commit to taking in order to deal with that.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> I am not intending either to bolster or to destroy your self image. I'm sorry that you feel that what I have said has harmed it.
>
> My use of the word "simple" was not intended to be patronising. Rather, it expresses my exasperation. I know you to be an educated and intelligent man. I know that your understanding is not in any way limited, that you read widely, and have more than a nodding acquaintance with deep philosophical texts.
>
> I'm not about to get into an argument with you over this. I chose to sleep on my reply in order better to avoid an argument.
>
> Yes, Marc. People avoid the forum because of the way you often behave. It's a fact. It distresses me to know this fact and it distresses me that I need to tell you this. Nonetheless the telling of it is important because it gives you the opportunity to make alterations to the behaviours that are not sociable and that seriously upset others.
What you see as avoidance, I see as abandonment. and not only here... It also happens whenever I had tried to reach out in other venues, ie, email, IM's and the like.
If my behavior is a sort of self justification for their attitudes towards me then it matters not how, why, when i post. They are going to use whatever I say, in whatever tone I say it to shore up their own self justification.
I know this to be true. I'm pretty sure you do as well.
>
> The many injustices in your life are horrible. If there is an "average" level of happiness there must be many folk well above that average because of the evil things that have beset you and your loved ones. I know that one can never 'put them behind one' and that they affect us for ever. One thing that posting here ought to help is coping with challenges such as those. That is why it is here. For everyone.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy wrote:
I see why he says it, but I do not feel it is an appropriate solution, nor an appropriate reaction. I cannot be happy when anyone says "unless someone does [whatever] then I will leave".
Timmy, reread what I wrote very carefully. All of us misuse this forum at some stage or other and in some way or other. But I did not say that I would leave the forum if Marc is crassly rude again. That would be most unfair and most unjust. I said that I would leave if he is shown to have been crassly rude and is unrepentant, refuses to apologise to the injured party (which sometimes may be all of us).
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Thank you. That re-explanation was well worthwhile
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Marc wrote:
> What you see as avoidance, I see as abandonment. and not only here... It also happens whenever I had tried to reach out in other venues, ie, email, IM's and the like.
>
> If my behavior is a sort of self justification for their attitudes towards me then it matters not how, why, when i post. They are going to use whatever I say, in whatever tone I say it to shore up their own self justification.
>
> I know this to be true. I'm pretty sure you do as well.
I can't speak clearly for others. For myself I have not abandoned you. Those who care enough about you not to abandon you are many. Some care enough to tell you things here, even those like JC, who knows oyu but slightly. Others care enough to tell you by email.
This may not be the most pleasant thread for you to read at present. It may be very hard to see it as written out of true friendship. Even those who use unguarded words to you care enough about you to try to give you, in their own way, they help they perceive that you need, even if that may be different from the help you perceive that you want.
These are the conclusions I draw, but it is up to them to clarify whether my conclusions are correct.
We don't always need to LIKE you all the time in order to be your friends.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Ok, OK. But JFR some of us don't want you to leave, whatever happens.
So please don't.
You may not have intended to sound threatening but it *did* sound threatening to me.
Please don't go.
Love,
Anthony
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Hi Anthony,
I have hesitated for quite a while whether or not to respond to your post. My hesitation was born from a feeling that things have quietened down and it would be best to leave them that way. But your kind words deserve a response, and I just hope that this response will not reopen old wounds that may possibly be healing already.
acam wrote:
You may not have intended to sound threatening but it *did* sound threatening to me. Please don't go.
It was not so much a threat as a notification of intent. I love this place. I have been here ever since it started more than a decade ago. More than that, sometimes I need this place to 'run away' to just to be with good people, relax, and not have to mind my orientational P'a and Q's.
I see this place as a kind of virtual club. Now if someone comes into my club every now and then, uses abusive language, scares people away, makes other members furious - then I get upset. If this happens again and again and no steps are taken either by that person using self-restraint or by the club owner taking preventive or retributive action then I feel insulted. All it needs for me to smile and forget is a simple apology for misbehaviour. If that apology is absent I (and everyone else) am insulted. I need not stay around to be insulted in my own club.
I hope that I shall never have to leave this place, because I love it here, because I need to be here. But I will not suffer the indignations that are sometimes involved if those indignations recur again and again and are met with impunity and elicit no sign of repentance.
Love and hugs,
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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