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I agree with the statement that circumcision as a means of prevention was a distraction more than anything else, and a no brainer that it wouldn't be cost effective.
I think this goes to show how much confusion there is on the HIV front, even among the medicos.
The thing that really freaks me out is when I think of the cost of treating just those in the first world let alone the second and third now that HIV is known more as a chronic condition. A couple of years ago it cost $2,100 per month for meds alone, 4,700 if you wait until your immune system is shot. I'm not sure about this moment but I doubt it's gone down much. I just hope the world can maintain it's compassion when the yearly cost of keep those with HIV wil be a conservative 15 billion a year.
Sometimes I become very frightened, not for myself, but for future generations.
[Updated on: Fri, 22 August 2008 02:14]
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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if you like scary stories. This one is a bit scary to me! What can I say though there is truth in what he says.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0725/044.html
What do you all think should be done? I know I have thought about it a great deal, and it's effects are profound! :-/
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I see treatment and education as separate for this discussion. These are not necessarily my personal views and are for the purposes of this discussion only.
There is a huge swathe of folk who absolutely need treatment. These are the folk for whom education was not possible. They are those who contracted the ailment before it was understood, and those infected during the next 20 years
Add to them those who were infected even though they followed safe practices.
But, for those after education, those who persist in unsafe practices, those who deliberately infect, harsh as it sounds, why not let the ailment run its course?
[Updated on: Fri, 22 August 2008 08:49]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Prevention IS usually cheaper than treatment. However, it is way cruel to talk in figures when talking about children infected pre-natally (do you use this word in English?), that means in the womb. It is definitely not their fault that they "missed" education.
I agree with Timmy, it needs much deeper thinking...
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Let me put a callous view.
"Those who are infected in utero will either survive and be or become immune, or will die. They will pass immunity genetically to their offspring if they survive. The human race will gradually become immune to the causative agent(s) and become stronger."
Thoughts?
[Updated on: Fri, 22 August 2008 08:45]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Is there an evidence, that a baby can develop immunity to such disease? Can such information be passed genetically?
If both answers are yes, then it is interesting and worth a thought (even if callous...)
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Develop? No idea. There is evidence that babies can be born unaffected to HIV+ mothers, though. Are they then immune? No idea.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Well, HIV is pretty infectious and a healthy baby born to an infected mother seems a miracle...
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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But it happens. So does lack of infection of a partner by an infected partner. It is an unpleasant ailment and causes great suffering, but some folk are immune.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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This is cool. But still, the only reliable method is to keep oneself safe...
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy wrote:
> Let me put a callous view.
>
> "Those who are infected in utero will either survive and be or become immune, or will die. They will pass immunity genetically to their offspring if they survive. The human race will gradually become immune to the causative agent(s) and become stronger."
>
> Thoughts?
For this to happen, there must be some gene (or combination of genes) that will confer some degree of immunity present in the parent population. So far, worldwide, we seem to have a very small percentage (about a tenth of a percent, I think) of people who resist the effects of the HIV virus much longer than is usual - so perhaps this is not impossible. Though in evolutionary terms, all that's necessary is enough resistance that people resist the effects of the virus long enough to successfully raise children.
However, it does NOT follow that the human race will become stronger, nor overall develop immunity. Resistance to malaria built up in the population of sub-saharan Africa. Get a gene for resistance from one of your parents, and you suffer less from malaria. Get a copy of the gene from each parent, and you have the genetic disease "sickle cell anaemia", which can be pretty unpleasant (see Wikipedia for details). This adaptation to malaria may make the human species stronger. But it certainly doesn't mean immunity, and the effects of sickle cell disease cannot lightly be dismissed.
Unfortunately, there's no reason to suppose that any genetic resistance to HIV that might be selected for may not have equally unpleasant concomitants.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Yes, the same way we develop, the nature develops as well. So if people really do build up resistance to certain disease, a new one will take us by surprise. There still is the possibility that half of the world's population will die of let's say modified flu.
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy wrote:
> But it happens. So does lack of infection of a partner by an infected partner. It is an unpleasant ailment and causes great suffering, but some folk are immune.
Timmy, haven't seen any evidence that some people are immune, and would like to know where you got this info.
Some people don't get infected in circumstances where it might seem likely. But this seems to mean that they are both lucky and that the placental barrier (mother/child) or skin/anal/vaginal lining is in good condition, and possibly that the viral load in the blood or semen that is the infectious agent is low. I'm not aware of any proven case where the HIV virus was actually present in a persons bloodstream and then disappeared - ie they did not become permanently HIV+
I think this is an important point to clear up. I'd hate anyone to rely on the possibility of being naturally immune! Where I live, anywhere between 1 in 10 and 1 in 6 gay men are HIV+, and there are distressing signs that people are choosing to ignore the messages about safer sex.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Anecdotal, I'm afraid. TV documentaries where the child tested clear even though born to an HIV+ mother. Anecdotal evidence from the uninfected partner who still has regular high risk sex with a long term HIV+ partner.
None of this should ever let any of us have unprotected sex unless and until our monogamous partner and we either both entered the relationship as virgins, or have both tested clear for at least 6 months.
This is an intellectual discussion, no more an no less. Safe sex is essential, as are regular visits if not in a regular and committed monogamous relationship to the sexual health clinics, gay or str8.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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There is no such thing as immunity per say, there are people we call non progressers, i.e. those infected that don't go on to develop symptoms.They still carry the virus and can infect others!
As to infection in the womb, in the first world this is no longer the norm , but depends in many factors manly the health of the mother. The placenta does seem to be pretty effective barrier, the biggest worry being the child coming into contact with the the mothers blood at birth.
You are too right NW the everyone st8ght and gay are become complacent once again. Most people think well I wont die, true but you will only have an average of 24 years after infection.
Shoot this all may change in the not to distant future, but then that's been being said for some time no with no cure on the horizon.
Have fun safely everyone! 
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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There does seem to be a small number of individuals who are immune to the virus causing HIV. These are people born without the receptors that the virus needs to attach to. But, as has been mentioned above, there does seem to be a trade-off. Here is a fascinating and very educational article on it:
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2005/01/66198
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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John..
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: March 2008
Messages: 56
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Hi
i have read all sorts of information on this subject.
The point is wear a condom. in time it will die out ,but be aware it will reform and jump up again.
It sadens me to think how ignorant most folk are in the african states.
But nature will take its course.
The media like to put it out thats its a gay thing, such crap
when most know that both male and female fall victims.
makes no difference as to being cut or uncut, these days we wash our cocks , cowboys did not, so it made sense to chop off the skin.wow :-/
with regards John.
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Thank you, Paul.
That was very interesting.
Love,
Anthony
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The only person I know that is a non progresser is part of a study and he is infected. I guess he must have the CCL3L1 gene rather than the CCR5.
OH well, cool for them, to bad for the 5 + million a year that aren't.
Also I wonder what they meant by "virtual immunity?"
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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I believe what you are talking about are some people who are virtually immune to the virus. They are genetic decindents of people who were immune to the black death. Im not sure of all the details but it has someting to do with a small town in England. There was a special on one of the science channels about it.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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