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At the moment we, the contributors of the board, are tearing ourselves apart over one lost sheep. In some ways it is regrettable, but let's look at this logically.
Principally this is a discussion board. Therefore it is going to display a multitude of opinions and those opinions will upset somebody. In the best of all possible worlds we would approach them coolly and logically. However, by their very nature some will approach the arguments intellectually, some emotionally. Look at your own families. There are arguments, loss of temper, pets, put downs, but somehow you remain a family. You learn out of necessity to tolerate / put up with things. It doesn't usually break the family up.
Now let's go to the other end of the scale. If everyone agreed, if everyone were nice to everyone else all the time, I would argue that would bring an end to the board quicker than all the arguments because it would produce mediocrity and indifference. Newton had something to say about it in his laws of dynamics. Work produces friction, produces heat. No friction = no heat = no work. On another forum I visit no one is allowed to criticise. The post is deleted and the poster gets a slap on the wrist. The result is having to plough through interminable rubbish to glean a little quality eventually.
Yes, we must guard against anyone going OTT, but absolute nicety would do more damage to the board in the long run. Look at the length of the present threads. Look at the times when there is nothing controversial. We can go a day without a new contribution until Timmy tries to throw a spanner in the works to get things going. And when he is on holiday that is the quietest time of all and then there is the danger that the board will fail.
Therefore let's continue these arguments with full conviction, gusto and the slightest touch on the tiller when necessary.
Cossie, I don't know whether you are lurking out there. I hope you are well now and if you are, come back. Your measured input is needed.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Niceness is the etiquette that Jane Austen vilified in her satirical novels
We need courtesy and politeness, but we do not need to be 'nice'.
Saying a difficult thing in a decent manner is what we need. Many of the discussions we have are inherently difficult, and yet then may be approached with civility, with politeness, with courtesy.
There is a huge difference between saying "You are a shit!" and saying "I disagree with you vehemently." or "I did not appreciate that behaviour." And that is all we require here when we disagree: reasoned and coherent rational argument.
I've wondered why this is so hard to achieve consistently. And yet I have also been guilty of transgressing.
[Updated on: Sat, 13 September 2008 11:31]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In my world that is viewed as weakness... it is accepting defeat... it is death without a chance of survival.
[Updated on: Sat, 13 September 2008 09:58]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
> In my world that is viewed as weakness... it is accepting defeat... it is death without a chance of survival.
I completely fail to understand this. I guess it is just way outside my frame of reference.
Much of the value of this place to me is in getting to hear about the experiences and views of people of different ages and backgrounds. "Success" is partly about how effective the sharing is - so I guess "defeat" is where I can't begin to understand anything about where someone is coming from. Like now!
But there's also an enormous value in having my own views, and my interpretations of my experiences, constructively challenged. And several posters here, over the past couple of years, have caused me to re-think and re-evaluate - not to the point of radically changing my views (as far as I remember), but certainly to the point of modifying them, or acknowledging that different circumstances may limit their applicability. It's called learning, or growth, or something. And stopping growing? That, my friend, is the real death.
Marc, if you truly at present see interaction with other people only as a battlefield on which you risk "defeat", and that common courtesy is a weakness, you risk an increasingly lonely and alienated existence. It's no way to live!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Then perhaps i should consider the alternitive.
[Updated on: Sat, 13 September 2008 11:28]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The alternative of behaving always with courtesy, of using politeness, not as a weapon, but as a tool which allows you to express your viewpoint in a way that others will receive and read instead of ignore because of its phrasing, yes. Yes consider and use and aspire to that.
I, like many, do not understand why "fight" appears to be uppermost in your survival. I know that you have a deeply difficult history and that your life is not the easiest, yet I feel your status as a mature student and the respect you tell me your classmates give you leaves you content, albeit not as flush with cash as anyone would like.
Things have changed since you were abused as a child, since Ricky was killed and you were beaten to a pulp. I can't conceive how these experiences left you emotionally, and saying "they are in the past" does little unless you can find a way of embracing the fact.
I do not know how to help you. I think WE do not know how to help you. That does not mean we do not wish to help you, it means we need clues.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Err...
You missed the point.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Not really. The idea of killing yourself because you want to be impolite in an online forum and are not allowed to be is, at best, unusual. So I chose the alternative that makes the most logical sense.
I suppose you could kill yourself because you've been ask to behave well, it's your life and you can choose to end it if you want to that much, but it seems a pretty banal thing to use as the trigger point. It would set a bizarre example to anyone else here.
And Kevy, what would he say? "Marc killed himself because he wasn't allowed to behave spitefully? Wow!"
Do we now need to walk on tiptoe in case you decide death is better than being asked firmly to behave well?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Again you miss the point...
But this time it is a bit over the top.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Perhaps it says something about taking the trouble to make sure your posts are easy to understand.
Half-line comments are too often like jerking off - probably fun for the person doing it, but not much use to anyone else, and not a terribly effective way of communicating.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Well, if you do not explain it so that I can understand it, I will not have a clue what you mean, nor, as NW implies, will anyone else. So perhaps, instead of one line replies you might choose to ex0plain what you mean.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Alright...
It's like this,,,, I am who I am, I use what mechanisms to survive as I need. I do this because I have been burned far too many times in the past, and I am still being burned now. If I am to survive I have to do it my way, not yours or Tim's or anyone elses way... My way because at the end of the day I am the one standing alone.
This is not a plea for pitty, it is the simplest way I can explain how I get by.
[Updated on: Sat, 13 September 2008 13:32]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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For all the good it will do.......
I did.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Getting your retaliation in first is not the best creed to live by, especially when you are among people who, while they may or may not be friends, at least are friendly.
Consider this, because it is how it appears, at least to me:
Marc has no friends
Every time Marc finds a potential friend he opens to them, and then pushes them away
Because Marc has no friends
In the end everyone leaves Marc because he pushes them so hard that they leave
Thus Marc creates and fulfils the fact that Marc has no friends.
And yes, I have used the third person to illustrate this and slightly to depersonalise it, not out of any rudeness or disrespect for you. If that usage should upset you I apologise.
If we did not care we would not be bothering.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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OK, this is not what you want to hear.
But "I am who I am, I use what mechanisms to survive as I need.". No, actually, you use the habits you have developed to cope and survive (as do we all). And they do, undeniably, work. But the price is considerable: you frequently refer to an absence of friends and so forth. You have locked yourself in a self-perpetuating spiral.
There ARE other ways of survival, ways which might actually be better both for you and for other people. It means stepping, for a moment, out of the victim role that you are so comfortable with. It means, above all, trying to avoid provoking people in order to make them 'have a go' at you and so giving you the satisfaction of confirming your self-image as victim or martyr.
I'm well aware that nagging you about this is only going to be counter-productive. But you have demonstrated insight, and strength and resilience so many times during the couple of years I've been here that I *know* you have the ability to start to change.
I will be sorry if you have to leave here because you do not feel able to learn to moderate your behaviour. But not as sorry as I would be if you stay and succeed in wrecking every thread and driving away all other posters!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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then you tell me what is better... to push them away or wait until i get tossed out?????
Which is or should be preferable?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Oh my..... now there is a good pooint.....
I have changed... 7 or 8 years ago if I were as pissed off as I get sometimes now I would have gotten into the car and hunted down the person.
I think I am quite tame now.
But you are right.
[Updated on: Sat, 13 September 2008 14:24]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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There are pros and cons of each.
Push them away now:
Pro: You know precisely where you are
Con: You know precisely where oyu are, pretty much friendless.
Wait and see what happens
Pros: They might stick around, since you are not pushing them away. They might become real friends. That could be fun.
Cons: No certainty, just like everyone else
How can I possibly tell you what you is better. I know what's better for myself, not for you.
[Updated on: Sat, 13 September 2008 14:47]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Thats the point.
All I have to go on is past occurances.
timmy wrote:
> There are pros and cons of each.
>
> Push them away now:
> Pro: You know precisely where you are
> Con: You know precisely where oyu are, pretty much friendless.
>
> Wait and see what happens
> Pros: They might stick around, since you are not pushing them away. They might become real friends. That could be fun.
> Cons: No certainty, just like everyone else
Perhaps no certainty..... But there are the facts that in either case I am still standing alone at the end of the day. So it is a moot point I'd say.
>
> How can I possibly tell you what you is better. I know what's better for myself, not for you.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Then, please, open yourself to the huge risk of amassing friends and of being happy or of learning to be happy, in the company of others.
You are a hugely likeable man, except, of course, when you are pushing folk away. You will do anything for someone down on their luck.
Some folk will still hurt you. They do that. They may be left behind. Others will hold up a mirror to you as I hope I am doing, and will not let you down. Still others may take you, warts an' all, to their hearts and never criticise you.
Try it for an extended period, say a five year period, and see what happens. Encourage it to happen. You can always go back to flying solo if you don't like it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It is all so very very easy to say.
Walk a mile or two in my shoes, your opinion might be somewhat less than you keep telling me.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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When my shoes pinch then I no longer wear them. Blisters are not my idea of fun.
If you don't choose to make the attempt to open yourself to the risk of good friendships then no-one can make you. But what do you have to lose? You can always revert to the status quo that obtains today.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Ok .........
Then where does one go to do this????
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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We're not a dumb as you think we are, Marc. Your reply, "OK...Then where does one go to do this???" is just another way of refusing to change.
This isn't about where to buy western style boots or what restaurant to go to for a certain type of food. This is about changing your attitude. That is within you, as you well know.
We know you are a very learned man, why do you put on this act of being stupid? That you do it is insulting to us and demeaning to you. People here are bending over backwards to keep from kicking you out and you continue to refuse to recognize there efforts. You refuse to accept that you are offensive, refuse to change and refuse to depart gracefully.
You have many years of education behind you; I ask you, is the way you are behaving a credit to that education?
JimB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I hope others will join me with ideas. They need to understand that you genuinely are not skilled in gaining friendships, and that you have a track record of failing to succeed and then going back into your shell.
At college, as well as meeting a few, and I do mean a few initially, folk socially, maybe in the bar, choose to invite one or two back home for a bite to eat. Some will be good company, others bad. That's the luck of the draw, and you may or may not get invites back in return. Don't be pushy, be casual.
At PFLAG why not offer a "bring a food dish open house" at your home. If PFLAG isn't appropriate, choose another social setting that is.
Help someone unexpectedly with something you are good at and they aren't. Some will respond with friendship, others will say "thank you" and move on with their lives.
Is that a decent start?
There is no recipe for success except to be genuine, to be open, and to offer friendship at an increasing level to those who are receptive. Like any relationship we start as acquaintances and move forward as we gel together.
Apart from your work I think you have led a sheltered life with regard to social relationships. You've hidden. I know why. But the time for that is in the past. People WILL let you down, but not all people. Most folk are genuine, and, given the right incentive, just a return of friendship, will become friends, or at least great acquaintances.
Don't expect too much, but don't expect too little either. It is lonely being the only friend you have not yet managed to push away however hard you try. But people like me with determination are few and far between. Make it easy for the others to stay.
This is easy to say, and, after the first few steps, simple, though not trivial, to do.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Jim......
Why are you trying to start up more shit?
What people? Where are they?
If there are people trying to keep from kicking me out then where does this committee meet.
Please do not bother me, contact me, speak to me.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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If I didn't know Marc I'd agree with you. But, while he is a very urbane man, very presentable, he is socially inept with allowing people to get close to him. It's hard work to get inside his defences. He finds them hard to lower.
You have no need to apologise for what you've said, but look at the man he is, not the man he perhaps ought to be able to be. If he'll work with us, and bring his successes and failures here for us to help with, we can help him help himself.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Please leave that one to lie quiet. Let's not get distracted.
[Updated on: Sat, 13 September 2008 17:47]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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does he think this is some sort of protracted insane game?
Damn it i am trying.
i have to go for a while.... it's no fun puking on the keyboard.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Jim, please do not take offence. Let's just let the reaction wither, please, and let's pursue more productive routes.
Now, for those of you who think I am going back on things, Marc is trying hard. I will not kick a man who is trying and who is under pressure and stress.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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John..
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: March 2008
Messages: 56
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yep i agree
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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If you let it, and especially if you try hard not to lash out when someone misunderstands, it can work.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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John..
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: March 2008
Messages: 56
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adited out wow
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Do NOT use language or phraseology like that here. Not now, not ever. Never.
Taking a combative stance against someone who is already known to be combative is not only not helpful, it's hostile.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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John..
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: March 2008
Messages: 56
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Hi Marc
sorry i do understand now.
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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I will.
I don't precisely know how..., but, we share names. Marc (Mark, Marcus, Markus) derives from Mars - fighter. But. Is it worth fighting all the time? I do fight when needed, and I tend to win thanks to my stamina and stubbornness. Most of the time I avoid conflicts. I am a fan of rational and peaceful solutions. Yelling and hitting produces just more hate, pain, fear and abhorrence. If you need to defend yourself, do that! But you can't go fighting everyone around just because they are there... This leads to loneliness even among people who treat you as a friend. And I'm pretty sure that we do. Always remember, that this is called A Place of Safety. This is the place where evryone is let inside if they knock on the door...
I want to help you, Marc, even though I don't quite know how at the moment. The thing I feel you need at the moment is an encouraging hug.
Here it is
HUGS to you Marc
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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Dear Marc,
There are other things you could do. You aren't in the position of having to answer one of those silly multiple choice exams where you choose between two things and both are wrong.
You could choose not to push them away and you could choose not to get tossed out. And, in fact, I believe that is what you actually are doing.
I'm gradually coming to think that, in my own case, making conversation here has helped me to lay some demons of mine to rest, to overcome some things I was ashamed of and to enjoy some things that for most of my life I didn't dare to enjoy. And, amazingly, all it has taken is this sort of unthreatening placid exchange of views and stories.
When I was young, and wanted to get close to someone and find out what they were **really** like I would try to get them into bed because the relaxed conversation after sex is just what is needed to get someone to let go of their mask a bit and admit things. [Everyone hides behind a mask, I think.]
In such circumstances (in bed with your arm round someone) it is very hard to be unkind! One does one's best to find ways of putting things that are acceptable to your partner.
So, if he is a Roman Catholic (like Peter) and you are atheist you don't say "Oh, by the way there is no god" when you are in bed with him. [Similarly for Roy, who was in holy orders: he never got defrocked either!] If he is for rent you don't go on about the immorality of prostitution and if it's she you don't say how much more satisfying boys are!
With care you can learn a whole lot about what makes them tick and become much deeper friends.
Alas, sometimes it doesn't work. I'm no longer in touch with any of the friends of my youth that I took to bed in the way I describe. Peter and Bill and Roy and (almost certainly) George and Jack and Meredith are dead. I've tried to renew friendships with Derek and Nick and two Johns and have not been welcomed. I think it is sad that all my longest lasting friends are heterosexual and wouldn't have sex with me when I tried many years ago - at least the few I tried seem to have forgiven me!
Does it help that you can see where I'm coming from?
Love,
Anthony
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