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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Hi all,
yesterday I took a placement test to determine whether my level of English is sufficient to take an exam for CAE or CPE or whatever. I was recommended to take CPE course followed by the test. Unfortunately today I was contacted with unpleasant news that the course won't open due to lack of students.
Anyway, what do you, the native speakers, think of these certificates?
Have you ever tried such test just to find out or for fun?
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If you wish to get a job in England we tend to value your ability to hold a conversation and understand other people's written work, too. I think the certificates are more use in your home nation to show that you can speak and understand English while doing other work, too.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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You know, Timmy,
when I was looking for a part-time job as an English teacher in June/July, most of the Language schools demanded a certificate. Then I came across 2 schools which didn't. I chose the one where the attitude seemed more professional. I was interviewed, my English tested, teaching abilities evaluated and I had several discussions with an Englishman who gave me some tips. I think that as long as you prove your abilities you need no certificate. But for lazy people in HR it is more comfortable to just ask for one and send you away if you can't produce it.
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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Mark wrote:
(snip)
> But for lazy people in HR it is more comfortable to just ask for one and send you away if you can't produce it.
I think it's also something that many commercial language schools use as a sales point - "all staff fully qualified" or whatever.
That was certainly the reason my Mum had to sit a "Teaching English as a Foreign Language" exam when she got a summer job in one of the better language schools in Oxford when I was a teenager. That was despite her being a native English-speaker with (then) over twenty years experience teaching both French and Spanish from beginner level to "A" level in schools ... I remember her being not very amused about it!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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NW, during my high school teaching career I was once asked if I would teach English (as a foreign language) - to help out. I refused point blank! The fact that I am a native English speaker does not qualify me to teach the language.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Teaching is, generally, the one area where qualifications are needed
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Qualifications to teach, yes. But an advanced knowledge of the subject - not necessarily: there is such a shortage of maths and hard-science graduates entering the teaching profession that it is not uncommon to find classes in these subjects taught by those whose interests and specialities lie elsewhere.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Everyone has it the wrong way round! The best way to learn a subject is to take a job teaching it!
Since I had a degree from Oxford everyone that interviewed me thought I could teach anything! Most of the time I taught computer-related subjects where there were no qualifications and, of course, I did have good experience.
But I think that it is worth getting qualifications if they are well controlled. There are a good many organisations (such as the British Computer Society) which only stay alive because people have an exaggerated respect for qualifications and they charge excessively for the fairly meaningless letters they authorise you to put after your name. I resigned from it more than thirty years ago. But I also worked for some similar organisations. They could afford to pay well!
Yours venially,
Love,
Anthony
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acam wrote:
Everyone has it the wrong way round! The best way to learn a subject is to take a job teaching it!
A very interesting proposition, Anthony. However, it is not novel. Nearly two thousand years ago a great Jewish sage said: "Much have I learned from my teachers; more have I learned from my colleagues; but most have I learned from my students."
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Agreed, Anthony. According to a saying that I somehow remember:
What I hear, I forget.
What I hear and see, I slightly remember.
What I use, I know.
What I teach others, makes me a master.
You certainly need to have skills to teach. No Paedagogical degree made a teacher of someone who doesn't possess the right set of skills. The lessons must be interesting, sometimes amusing, but the most important are the results (progress in case of languages)...
By the way, I had this discussion with one of my students, who claimed that for grammar he prefered a non-native speaker. Why? A person who undergoes the process of learning grammar in a foreign language knows where the problems lie and how to avoid making mistakes. As well, the explanation is different when you compare a non- and native speakers as teachers. The conclusion is, that he thinks that for teaching a Slovak student a Slovak teacher is often more suitable (especially for grammar) than a native speaking teacher.
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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Dear JFR,
I knew it wasn't original. I don't have much in my head that didn't get there via other people's heads.
That is one reason why I find Popper's metaphor of three worlds so convincing and useful for thinking about the world.
World 1 is the real world and everything in it.
World 2 is the contents of your mind and only you can know it.
World 3 is the products of the human mind that are accessible to sharing. World three contains the discoveries of science and exploration, all conjectures, all errors, lies and mistakes (such as creationism) and the ideas in world three compete with each other for human attention much as life forms compete for living room on the planet.
It's a simple scheme but very powerful at explaining things. And the flow of ideas between minds via world three from obsrevations made by minds on world 1 is a fascinating way to look at human knowledge.
Love,
Anthony
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Yes, Marek,
I agree about the teacher idea. It's the other way round with translations. There the translator must be a native speaker of the target language.
Ive seen some terrible translations when this rule wasn't followed.
Love,
Anthony
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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Agreed once again, Anthony.
If a translation of a book (English to Slovak) was offered to me, I probably would take it and try to make the best job.
However, I was offered to translate a book from Slovak to English... Even though I think you're right, I am pretty tempted by that challenge. Still I'm afraid it'd be an awful translation (but likely much better than the one I saw by the very author  ).
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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Anthony, please don't think that my poorly worded comment was intended to be rude or disrespectful. On the contrary, it was intended to be supportive.
Hugs.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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No, no, JFR,
I took it as friendly. My self-deprecating reply is just me. But you won't find I'm deprecating about Popper!
Love.
Anthony
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Yes, Marek,
There are some stories by Matt and Andrej Koymasky that the author translated into English (from Italian) and I helped to 'English' them. It was fascinating to discover that even when the author had got it completely wrong I was able to understand his intention and make it into reasonably idiomatic English. It was fun to do as well [http://andrejkoymasky.com/libe.html]
I once had to review a book about my favourite programming language, APL. I got to do it because I am secretary of the British APL Association. It was translated from French by one Julian Glyn Matthews. He wasn't fluent in English and he didn't understand APL. I don't know how he got the job but he lacked the two essential languages and his translation was the worst travesty you ever read. [I would have put a link here but I found my review was published in 1985, before the magazine was produced in electronic form!]
Love,
Anthony
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Sorry, Anthony, it seems to be a dead link. I got a 404, but a very pretty 404.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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it is an unusually pretty 404 isnt it.
[Updated on: Thu, 18 September 2008 15:44]
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:37] |
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try
http://andrejkoymasky.com/libe.html
[Updated on: Fri, 19 September 2008 00:12]
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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EJ has it correct. The final bracket, "]", is being included in the address. Remove it and you will get better results.
JimB
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Dear Michael,
Everything is in world one. The monks' perceptions were in world two and their argument with each other was in world three.
And the patriarch spoke gnomic nonsense. Plainly both wind and flag were moving.
Love,
Anthony
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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:36] |
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] 
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