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This has kinda cropped up on the "marriage" thread, but I thought it was an important subject in its own right.
Adam posted "I'm shocked and somewhat dismayed that anyone posting on this board would not be in favor of full marriage equality, and instead would accept a term that continues to divide gay and lesbian individuals, labeling their committed relationships as anything other than "normal". I'm disappointed."
I'd previously posted "I'm afraid that I think not calling legally-recognised gay partnerships "marriage" is a concession to bigotry, and the readiness of many gay men to settle for anything less suggests, to me, that - deep down - there may be niggling feeling that as gay men we are either in some way inferior, or at least "different". We all suffer from this to some extent, but we need to face up to it and root it out!
Am I right in thinking that it's almost impossible for gay men - at least those of middle age or older - not have taken on board some of the negative stuff about homosexuals that we grew up with? Every now and then I pull myself up short when I realise that my words or actions show some kind of buying-in to negative stereotyping that I actually know isn't true or valid!
What do others think? And am I right in suspecting that people who are now in their teens and early 20s have internalised a lot less of this crap?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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One eats what is set out on the plate before them.
That being said, I and Kevy have a "Civil Union" and am happy with that.... more would be more.... and less would be less....
Most gay men don't think about marriage or civil unions.... most gay men think about where they are going to get laid next.... (Oh, by gay men I mean those 18 and older), the length of most gay relationships are about as long as a trip to the men's room.
So for the few.... and I mean very few.... that want something more.... get what you can right now at this minute or sure as hell it will pass you by.
Now, as far as many of the rights of marriage, most of the rights can be secured with a trip to a lawyer and several documents drawn up to insure the couples interests are spelled out chapter and verse.
[Updated on: Wed, 15 October 2008 11:35]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Obviously I can't answer for the younger members, but, since I was the one that raised the contentious element in the first place let me say clearly why I did it.
I believe that we remain in the period of tactics that should form a part of a longer term strategy. And I think the tactics deployed have been overambitious and thus wrong. In order to get and keep full partner benefits (etc) on the statute book I am personally willing to concede, for the moment, the use of the term "marriage". I think the pressure groups were too early in saying "We want marriage" despite the fact that, had I been unafraid in my teens I wanted to marry another boy.
I believe that the move to "marriage" from "formalised partnership" is not a slow transition, and is inescapable. I just seem to be a lone voice with my different view of the tactics needed to reach the end goal of legitimising the fact and the word of marriage between same gender partnerships.
[Updated on: Wed, 15 October 2008 14:41]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I have to say that my partner and I took full advantage of the Civil Parnership laws and on examining the detail discovered we were in all but name married with the benefits and advantages as such.
It really did not bother us that it wasn't called marriage simply because to us it was... i'm not bothered with what others wish to call it I know what it means for us. And the Crown document we recieved from the registrar is very much appreciated. Hospitals, hotels, and other businesses now HAVE to recognise and treat us fairly.
Paul Jamison.
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Dear NW,
How do I tell? What would be the signs that I should look out for?
And if I have internalised homophobia do I also have internalised deep faith, now I say I'm an atheist?
As Alex Sanchez wrote it's "So hard to say".
What I think is that I've got less and less like that as I've aged and just as my father spent most of his life concealing the fact that he was illegitimate and in his seventies could write "now I don't give a damn who knows" I rather feel the same. Maybe I deceive myself. It could be so.
Love,
Anthony
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acam wrote:
> Dear NW,
>
> How do I tell? What would be the signs that I should look out for?
's a bit difficult to say, really - I think it strikes everyone differently. But for a couple of examples
I realised a couple of months ago that I was less comfortable with gay guys having sex in public parks (cruising grounds) than I was with the idea of straight couples/groups doing so (at "dogging" sites).
I realise that I *do* sometimes think to myself about other people "that's the kind of behaviour that gives gay men a bad name", where I can't remember ever having thought "that's the kind of behaviour that gives straights a bad name"
When I was thinking about commenting on the draft sexual orientation regulations, I had to think long and hard about the issue of bed-and-breakfast accommodation: initially I thought it reasonable that a B&B owner should be able to exclude gay people ... but it was then pointed out to me that this was in fact very little different from the formerly-common "no Blacks or Paki's", and that service should not be denied on grounds of sexual orientation.
It doesn't happen often. But it *does* happen, every now and then, that I realise that I have not completely rooted out the baggage of mildly homophobic thought with which I grew up ... and I don't suppose that I ever will completely outgrow it.
So, in all honesty, do other people never have such realisations?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Now that you give examples I can join you in saying that I am also "guilty" of such things.
I think it is "being used to things". I am not used to seeing two men kissing passionately in public, so, while I am accepting of it in a heterosexual pair I wonder if a homosexual pair kissing "does us any favours".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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unsui
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Likes it here |
Registered: September 2007
Messages: 338
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2008 17:06] |
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Michael, thanks for that very clear explanation.
I feel uncomfortable with intimate, as opposed to greeting, kissing in public, no matter how the pair is made up. But then I'm old-fashioned.
I remember the first time I saw two men holding hands in public. I was with my father in Amsterdam, praying that my he would not make a comment out loud. Although quite capable of doing so, he did in fact keep quiet.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Dear NW,
I wasn't happy about people having gay sex in public at Parson's Pleasure, but, at that time heterosexual behaviour was much more restrained so I don't think that was me being homophobic. I once watched a guy giving a hand job on Hampstead Heath. Disapproval wasn't the thought uppermost in my mind! He had red and white striped boxers!
During this years invitation croquet matches (the eights) one guy brought his girlfriend with him and snogged fairly outrageously in the clubhouse while waiting for his game. I thought it made it uncomfortable for some other members to sit in there. It's just bad behaviour (I think) and maybe I've been unlucky but I've never seen a gay couple do that.
I never doubted that B&B owners should be refused the power to discriminate. I knew they would, sometimes, when they realised, but they would have to say something like "Oh, sorry! The room is taken and I forgot to take down the 'Vacancy' sign."
Perhaps I will be able to think of somewhere that I do let the side down (that's how I think of it) - but at the moment I can't.
Love,
Anthony
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Dear Michael,
I think a lot depends on the people you are used to. One son in law has a school friend who is trans-sexual and is now Caroline. I guess I see her two or three times a year and she usually has with her another whose name is Chris. I also know a Jane Sullivan who used to be John! My emotional response to them is really had to analyse. I don't understand is all. But I'm certainly not made uncomfortable when they hold hands.
But the things I do understand hold no worries. I am happy with sexual kissing - what bothers me is the sort of social kissing at some dinner parties where every male guest is expected to kiss the hostess on both cheeks.
And I suppose I'm about as untraditional as you get. I do think my wife and I are equals. And it is common enough seeing two male dogs fucking.
So I think that homophobic reactions to the sights we have mentioned are really an unthinking response and if I have that response I'm not aware of it. On the other hand when I encounter the macho man expecting his wife to have his tea on the table when he gets home from work I really disapprove and I don't let a man get away with boasting that he can't even boil an egg!
Love,
Anthony
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