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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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What is so important about genitals that they must be covered?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Any number of possible answers. But the current Western (especially US) obsession with covering male genitals may well have to do with the habit of widespread circumcision ... revealing the glans "imitates" sexual arousal preparatory to intercourse, which is not normally considered a spectator sport.
Other cultures have had different norms, of course, and I don't think there's anything inevitable about covering male genitals. Though I've always wondered a bit about those cultures where nudity was customary for athletic pursuits ... personally I valued a bit of support for my dangly bits in the days when I was a cross-country runner!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Clothing provides protection and support* and keeps them from getting too cold. It's also more hygienic to keep them covered.
There are other more puritanical reasons, but those are the main ones as far as I'm concerned.
David
*edit after reading NW's post
[Updated on: Thu, 08 January 2009 23:05] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Why is it more hygienic?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Because it's impossible to keep the area entirely clean all the time, for obvious reasons, and underwear acts as a buffer. Are you being facetious?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Not at all. But why are we in the context of underwear and hygiene?
Do family pets wear underwear?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No, and that's because they are animals.
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Deeej wrote:
> Because it's impossible to keep the area entirely clean all the time, for obvious reasons, and underwear acts as a buffer. Are you being facetious?
You really don't want "skid marks" on your Jaguar's leather seats, do you? ewwwwwwww
Cycling is the one sport where a guy can shave his legs, wear spandex and bright colors, and be accepted.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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well, wash!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I don't understand the prejudice against nudity, either. I'd rather swim or sunbathe naked.
NW misses the point when he says he wants support when running. That isn't to cover the nudity - in fact wandering about in a jockstrap is liable to be as much of a social gaffe as if you were nude.
I find the idea that a circumcised penis look a bit nearer to an aroused penis very strange. As far as I am concerned it's the angle of the dangle that is the indicator. Where did mankind get the idea of the fuel gauge?
And, in our family we act on that: we don't bother to shut the lavatory door unless there are visitors. If we are minding grandchildren and are still in bed when their mother brings them (she starts work rather early), they stay and talk in the bathroom/bedroom as we wash and get dressed. And I guess it's interesting for them as their father is one of the hairiest men I know - his shirt doesn't touch his skin except at the neck whereas, except for my head, I am almost hairless.
Love,
Anthony
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UNimportant, did you mean?
Has anyone here ever modelled for a life drawing class? I think I would rather like to do that.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Keeping still is rather hard work! But your local art college may welcome models. Ask them!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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acam wrote:
>
> NW misses the point when he says he wants support when running.
I was rather assuming that timmy wasn't restricting "importance" to matters of social concern in his original post.
>I find the idea that a circumcised penis look a bit nearer to an aroused penis very strange. As far as I am concerned it's the angle of the dangle that is the indicator. Where did mankind get the idea of the fuel gauge?
Seems a bit strange to me too, but in cultures where male nudity is habitual and circumcision isn't, there is (as far as I remember) nearly always a taboo on exposing the glans. But it's 30 years since I last studies sex/gender systems (as part of an Anthropology degree), and it's an area I'm a bit rusty in.
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Well, I don't wear underwear to catch 'skid marks'. I don't make 'skid marks' on my underwear because I wear a jockstrap and I don't get them on my tights because I wipe carefully and evacuate completely.
And I can't eat curry! It gives me migraine. (And I think skid marks arise sometimes from loose stools arising from such unsuitable foods.)
And no-one can get skid marks while they are nude, can they?
Isn't this a nice subject?
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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In Sri Lanka and India you use a bum hose instead of paper. Much more hygienic. Washing is far better than wiping.
But it amazes me that we are into hygiene as the only arbiter against nudity.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy said,
>But it amazes me that we are into hygiene as the only arbiter against nudity.
Perhaps it would be amazing if anyone had said that. But no-one did. You were the one who challenged the suggestion.
What about warmth, protection, support? Not to mention all the puritanical and prudish reasons (which I'm still not going to mention).
Even dispensing with those, it would just be plain distracting if everyone kept their genitalia on display. And unattractive in most cases. It's more discreet to cover up.
I have no objection to people sunbathing or swimming nude, even in public places. But I would seriously object if my co-workers turned up regularly without a stitch of clothing. It's not polite.
David
[Updated on: Sun, 11 January 2009 19:51] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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But, and I mean this in seriousness, why is nudity impolite? And why is it distracting?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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When buildings get old and become eyesores, we dress them up with new siding. They become a little more presentable to the public. I suppose you could say the same thing for the bodies that tend to bloat, sag, wrinkle and, basically, become every bit of an eyesore. They have more public appeal when they are dressed in new siding. I, for one, am glad that the majority of the folks I see day to day are covered head to toe.
It could be better for the public health if we all went nude. It might force us to stop eating fast food and become a little more conscious of our weight and sagging muscles. I know that the sight of the majority of the people I would see in the restaurants would kill my appetite - and that might be a good thing for me. ::-)
Feeling better by the way.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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Paul's absolutely right. It's impolite because there are just too many ugly bodies around. Personally, I don't want to see ugly overweight men and women in the nude. And, if you're ugly, it's rude to force everyone else to look at your body. Common politeness is based on -- well, the lowest common denominator.
The problem is the opposite for beautiful people. Their nudity would be distracting to me because I would find it difficult to think of anything else. At least, I anticipate that being the case, which is really all that matters in establishing social norms. If the context is right (it's a private setting and everyone knows what they are getting into, for instance) that's great. But if you're trying to get something else done, it's a distraction, and a potentially embarrassing one. That's why I would regard it as impolite, and I think that's the reason other people do too. Not just the prudes. In fact, I'll specifically exclude the prudes, who are probably just jealous.
If everyone were naked all day nudity would lose its mystique (it never really bothered me at school, for instance). But I doubt the loss of mystique would suppress sexual attraction altogether. In any case, our climate is such that it's normal to wear clothes almost all over almost all the time. Most people change into swim-wear (or less) to swim and sunbathe in public so rarely that there is no chance it will risk losing doing so for the general population.
David
[Updated on: Sun, 11 January 2009 21:57] |
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But nobody was proposing that, Deeej, Timmy's original question was about the unnatural prurience about the crotch, not a manifesto in favour of nudity at work or on the tube.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have quite a large nose. I am fat. But it is not impolite of me to show you my nose or that fact that I am fat. It is simply something about me that you may find unappealing.
If we all go about unclothed the sight of fatties will be so commonplace that it does not attract attention.
If I dressed in women's clothes and came to work like that, would I be impolite also? You see I have a cousin who believes that his brother is awful for doing so. He despises and hates "him" for it. He views it as impolite.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy said,
>I have quite a large nose. I am fat. But it is not impolite of me to show you my nose or that fact that I am fat. It is simply something about me that you may find unappealing.
It is conventional to show one's nose. It is conventional to 'be' fat. It is not conventional to go out of your way to show me that you have a large nose if I have no interest in it. Nor is it conventional to strip off and show me your body without my having requested it.
>If we all go about unclothed the sight of fatties will be so commonplace that it does not attract attention.
Most probably. I do not think this invalidates any of my points.
>If I dressed in women's clothes and came to work like that, would I be impolite also? You see I have a cousin who believes that his brother is awful for doing so. He despises and hates "him" for it. He views it as impolite.
Intention and context are, of course, vital. If your cousin wears women's clothing specifically for the purpose of upsetting those at work, and his brother, then yes, I would regard that as 'impolite'. But, while I don't know your cousin at all, I doubt that is the case.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Well, he is a pre-op transsexual
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Anthony,
I didn't suggest that anyone had done so. I was simply giving an example to elaborate on a statement. Now that I read my post again, I can see that it could be read to imply that I'm rebutting something, but it's not meant to.
On this board, the 'original question' often gets lost, though that's often what makes it so interesting. 
David
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I don't know about any of the rest of you, but if I were to go around naked, I'd likely end up playing with myself all day and never accomplish a damned thing.
Think good thoughts,
e
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What an extraordinary idea, e!
I really think you should try and see what really happens.
When people are put in a situation where they are all naked together they seem to me to behave the same way as they did when clothed.
At my school we were required to swim naked or not at all. The excuse was that fibres from swimming costumes clogged the filter. When the head arranged for the wall around the pool to be demolished the joke was that there was a good sale of binoculars to the surrounding houses.
I think it was good for me (and probably others) to get used to being naked so I got to be at ease with it.
There are lots of nudist beaches in So Cal aren't there? Tell me how you get on! 
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I am a naked bather when I have the chance. The interesting thing is that, apart from an imperative dash to the water the first time I was unclothed in public, there is nothing sexual about it. Now everyone says that and no-one who has not tried it believes us!
Nakedness is initially erotic. The first time I showered in school it was an erotic experience; not because I was attracted to the two rather hideous examples of humanity I was showering with, but because I was naked! It was the personal experience, not the other people present that caused a frisson, and fortunately not an erection.
Oddly, people display better manners naked in many ways than clothed. I'm not sure that it is vulnerability so much as mutual respect.
The only downside about nude beaches is the inhibitions that today's society gives us, necessary inhibitions, about taking what would be, on a clothed beach, harmless holiday snaps. Whereas in the 1960s a picture of little Billy holding his willy would have been seen as charming, today it is seen as pornography, child abuse and so much more.
Odd, is it not, that clothed bodies are more erotic to view than naked ones! It is not what is on show that excites, but what might be under the garment!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Quite so, Timmy.
I'm much more apprehensive If I have to parade in my jockstrap than naked. Ineed I've even been known to replace the Jockstrap with briefs on a visit to the doctor.
Not any more though!
Love,
Anthony
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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There usd to be one or two nude beaches, but I don't know if they still exist. I've never been to one.
In middle school, high school, and college I never had any problems getting naked to shower with my peers. I enjoyed the showers both from the standpoint of my own nudity and from looking at the other boys. I always wished I'd had the opportunity to romp naked with other boys (and even girls) at a swimming pool or ball field, but the opportunity never arose (pardon the pun).
But as I grew into adulthood, I became fat and ugly and don't much care for subjecting myself to my ownn nudity, much less anyone else.
I do have to admit, though, it was fun actually getting to strip for the doctor last week. Throughout the exam (which included the physical and visual inspection of the testicles) I was worried I might get an erection. It was so exciting. I even enjoyed the finger in the rectum for the prostate exam. It was the first time I'd actually enjoyed a physical exam since the last time I had a male doctor, despite the fact that neither docter was sexually attractive. Instead it was because of the care and consideration I was shown by these men. My previous three physicals had been conducted by women who seemed to treat my nudity and genitalia with contempt. One of these women handled me so roughly that I experienced a bit of discomfort for the next few days. Not surprisingly, this same "doctor" didn't even lift my gown to give me a visual inspection, she simply reached underneath to cop the obligatory feel while I turned my head to cough.
Think think I've strayed a bit off topic, though.
Think good thoughts,
e
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If I understand your question correctly, you are really asking, aside from the practical reasons for covering up -- protection, warmth, etc., why do we insist on covering up ?
That really probably has more to do with the role that religion plays on our society than on any other reason. Although uncovered private parts (even the words we use to describe them reinforce their being covered) do not go against any popular religion, the religious culture today, here in the US and I assume the UK at least, views the viewing of genitals as causing lewd and lascivious thoughts. It has much to do with temptation and fear.
Does this mean it is healthy ? no. Does this mean that it is really justified ? no. Does this mean that the prevailing viewpoint is damaging ? no. More that it is just the way things are because that is the way things have been.
I think our viewpoint on nudity mirrors our openness about sexual matters.
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
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