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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13802
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"If you were approached by the boy of your dreams, below the age of consent, naked, sexy, appearing certain of his own mind and sure of the consequences of his actions, and asked by him to show him with great gentleness, kindness, and true love what sex with another male was about, would you do it?"
I'm not asking for answers of the "yes I would" or the "no I would not" kind. They would either be potentially self incriminating, or probably 'holier than thou', but I'm asking us to think.
I can say clearly that I would find it very hard indeed to know how to reject the boy's advances without hurting his feelings, and that is the least of the tough calls to make here.
Though it is very much a "law" thing it's also about personal morality, societal morality, "knowing what is best for him" and so much else.
And it is also a wonderful fantasy, and one which heterosexual men have about naked girls. This is not a gay thing I'm asking.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Timmy,
In my dreams I would be very glad to show him what it is about but you wrote "This is not a gay thing I'm asking" and I don't understand what you mean. How can it not be gay, unless some of the people you are asking are women?
And in real life I would know a lot about anyone to get as close to me as to be able to make such a request and the social position too. And I'm so out of touch I'd have to think before I knew what the age of consent was (is it 16? as I think).
But I made a promise when I got married and (unlike many of my straight friends) I have kept it and intend to keep it. It would be a shame to break it after 46 years, wouldn't it? Almost as bad as taking up smoking again!
But promises and all such constraints aside I don't have a pat answer. I am quite prepared to break the law, which is often an ass, but I'd have the devil's own job convincing myself that I wasn't liable to do other people harm.
When I was sixteen I still had three years to go before my first sexual experience with another person. I can't imagine the state of mind of a pre sixteen year old who was knowledgeable and mature enough to be able to make such a request "maturely". I'd have to think that I could feel as I felt at 19 but somehow only be 16 years old or less. I suspect if I could think that it would be self-deceit!
And I think your premise is out of kilter. If he were mature enough to ask for that he would have had to know enough not to need to be shown.
Love,
Anthony
[Updated on: Wed, 21 January 2009 16:25] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13802
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acam wrote:
> Dear Timmy,
>
> In my dreams I would be very glad to show him what it is about but you wrote "This is not a gay thing I'm asking" and I don't understand what you mean. How can it not be gay, unless some of the people you are asking are women?
I wrote "And it is also a wonderful fantasy, and one which heterosexual men have about naked girls. This is not a gay thing I'm asking."
The whole paragraph needs to be read in order to derive full meaning from it
> And I think your premise is out of kilter. If he were mature enough to ask for that he would have had to know enough not to need to be shown.
I knew with absolute certainty. And yet I still needed to be shown. Knowledge is so very different from a practical experience. I know what is required to travel to the moon. The experience would be very different from my imagination's picture of it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JimB
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Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Initially I thought of the critical questions that require answers to enable one to actually come to a decision on this question. Such as the actual age of the boy, there is a big difference between a ten year-old and one of 14; and I believe there is a big difference between a stranger and someone you know. Then I thought about man's obsession with sex and wondered why is it so. Why would a man risk his life for a few minutes, maybe only a few seconds, of feeling good?
I certainly don't subscribe to the concept that sex should be only for procreation; as a single man with no children virtually all of my sexual experiences have been recreational. But sex with an underage boy is like playing Russian Roulette, and why would one do such a thing? Whatever the length of time, a few seconds, a few minutes, a few hours, it is followed by days, months, years of uncertainty about the law showing up at your door.
You say, “I would find it very hard indeed to know how to reject the boy's advances without hurting his feelings”, but what about your life? What about your family's life? I for one do not find sex so irresistible that I would be willing to risk my life for it. The fact that you made this post is indicative that many do not share that resolve (I do not mean to imply that you are one of those) and I wonder why?
JimB
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OK, Timmy, you wrote "I knew with absolute certainty. And yet I still needed to be shown. Knowledge is so very different from a practical experience." so you really knew for sure. So I accept that there are such people (though I can't put myself in their shoes).
I don't live on a desert island. What on earth could such a person be thinking of to choose *me* to ask such a question? You are certainly right that it is a fantasy!
I realise I'm probably spoiling your fun by taking it too seriously and making it out to be impossible. I'd better shut up and let someone deal with it in a suitably light-hearted manner.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13802
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"Seriously" is precisely how I hope it should be taken. The whole question was suggested by the "wicked uncle" that Paul Schroder was trying to counsel against suicide.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13802
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JimB wrote:
> You say, “I would find it very hard indeed to know how to reject the boy's advances without hurting his feelings”, but what about your life? What about your family's life? I for one do not find sex so irresistible that I would be willing to risk my life for it. The fact that you made this post is indicative that many do not share that resolve (I do not mean to imply that you are one of those) and I wonder why?
I believe that rejecting such an advance is almost as difficult as yielding to it, ranging from gentleness out of genuine concern for the minor (and I have carefully not specified age or desired act), to a fear of "if you don't then I'll tell everyone that you did" kind of blackmail.
Complex isn't it?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well, for me it is of course out of the question, not only would it just be impractical but exponentially more dangerous on so many levels.
I also have to go back to what Anthony asked, why would an underage “teen,” not to mention an age of consent teen approach me for such a thing…. And I’m in pretty good shape! I’ve even had some in that age ranges checking me out….LOL but that’s with my clothes on, I just can't stop laughing at the thought, hey I’m firm for a 55 yr old but I have to say that gravity has had its way with me!
It is indeed fodder for fantasy, but beyond that I can not believe a teen in that range would desire such a thing of their on volition!
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13802
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And yet, allegedly, the wicked uncle that Paul was counselling put himself in or allowed himself to get in that situation.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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I disagree. It is only necessary to explain to the boy that all that is needed to land me in jail is someone else having knowledge of the act, that he need not file a complaint but anyone with knowledge of the act could do so. And that the “evidence” against me can be very circumstantial (the boy was at my home or we were alone together somewhere) without him even saying a word in court about it.
The boy may want to learn about man-to-man sex but it is also important that he learn that in sexual encounters “no” means no. Praise for his good looks, good character, or other qualities should be sufficient to let him know that “he” is not being rejected but it is the situation that is being rejected.
When he resorts to extortion via the blackmail threat gentleness and concern for him would be overridden by my own instinct for self-preservation. At that point the only course of action left to me would be to immediately go to the authorities, with or without the boy, and explain what has taken place and make sure my statement is recorded, even if it means filing a complaint. In a situation where there is no adequate defense one must take the offensive; allowing the boy to remain in control would only bring harm to both of us.
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JimB
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Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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I agree with you, however go back 20 years (more like 30 for me). Or go back to when you were 25. At that age would it be so unreasonable for a 15 year-old to approach you in his desire to learn about sex from a man rather than another boy?
Whether you are 55 or 25 the law would look at it the same.
JimB
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Well, assuming that I did indeed feel that the lad was "appearing certain of his own mind and sure of the consequences of his actions", for me it would then be about "love". I can no longer do casual sex, nor "friendships with benefits" (though I could in my teens and early 20s) - it just does not feel right for me. And I think it highly improbable that I could fall seriously in love with someone under half my age (effectively, anyone younger than late 20s).
I wouldn't feel any qualms about discussing the topics of sexual / family / friendship love, having sex within an exclusive relationship / as a "buddy" / casually with anyone of any age (I've certainly done so with my nephew and nieces, from age about 12 or 132 onwards), so I don't think it would be too difficult to explain my position to the hypothetical boy of my dreams. I would hope that the lad - although he might feel a little disappointed - would not be badly hurt, and would understand and respect my position.
I suppose that it is just possible I might fall genuinely in love with a boy. But in that case I'd be even less likely to go along with any advances - it seems to me that I'd be setting myself up to get badly hurt.
Having said all of which, I would of course be very happy to make sure that anyone, of any age, knew the theory, the risks, the little wrinkles one has picked up with experience ... and an adequate supply of condoms if required. And that enabling role is, I think, often underestimated ... I could certainly have done with someone like that back when I was starting out!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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This is why I say of their own volition, I may be off the mark but seems to me there had to be some kind of coercion on the part of the uncle. It, I think would be a rare thing for a teen to be attracted to the body of a 50 + yr old in my case. I mean as you state, older people tend to be attracted to the more youthful bodies, I know I am, but I also know that, that is what I was attracted to when I was that age. I guess there in lies the problem with me, the imagery of my old body intertwined with a young one just does not seem right some how. Not to mention the lack of common ground.
Yet on the other hand as I said they are for some reason attracted to my face or maybe it just the long hair…. Hehehe I don’t care the attention is nice!
[Updated on: Thu, 22 January 2009 14:12]
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Teaching need not include physical contact. I think I could explain this with out causing emotional damage to the youth.
But then at 25 I don’t think I would have had the maturity to resist such an opportunity! I like to think I would have been a caring lover, but even then I think fear would have colored in a little too dark a shade.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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I should have know to read your post before I made my last couple of post. You really are a wonderful writer ya know, and I like the way you think! Chears!
[Updated on: Fri, 23 January 2009 15:57]
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Dear JimB,
You do seem to me to have an exaggerated respect for the law. I don't mean to attack you but my attitude is quite different. Perhaps it was because it was all illegal when I was young but I really don't rate it.
If I and a 14 year old had sex I would have to be quite sure that he wouldn't tell and I certainly wouldn't. I was 32 when it became legal for two men to have sex together if both over 21 and consenting and behind locked doors.
Well I had been doing it without locking the doors for ages so do you think I suddenly started to lock them in order to become legal. No! Of course I didn't.
When deciding what to do I just never consider what's legal and what isn't. The only consideration when I'm going to do something illegal is whether I might get caught! And, of course whether I want to do it enough!
I think that it is another symptom of the amazing conformity of society in the USA. People there don't seem to like to be different, or as in this case to break the law, whereas here it doesn't seem to matter - maybe I deceive myself!
And, if I knew of a couple of young men who were having sex together and one or both were below the age of consent I would regard it as an extremely immoral act to tell anyone concerned with the law about them.
The law has no place in my bedroom nor in anyone elses!
And when the law is wrong (and that's quite often!) it ought not to be obeyed and those who think it is wrong ought to encourage people to break it (when they can do so without risk of punishment).
And I do.
Love,
Anthony
PS Maybe that was a little bit OTT!
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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My above use of the authorities (the law as you say) was a means of protecting myself from the false accusations of the blackmail that Timmy mentioned. In the US when a child accuses an adult of molesting them the adult's life is seriously damaged whether the accusations are true or not and regardless of the legal outcome. I'm not saying it is right just that it most frequently ends up that way.
I find your statement "You do seem to me to have an exaggerated respect for the law" interesting. I guess there are degrees of respect but at some point it comes down to you do or don't respect something. As a law abiding citizen I do respect the law though I do sometimes knowingly violate the law and, as in my earlier example, I would use the law to protect myself.
In part my respect for the law comes from a relative who spent a career in law enforcement. Also from a firm conviction that without respect for the law you have anarchy; the situation in Mexico with the drug lords and gangs is a good example of what happens.
What I do have that I would agree is exaggerated is a fear of loosing my freedom.
JimB
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acam wrote:
> When deciding what to do I just never consider what's legal and what isn't. The only consideration when I'm going to do something illegal is whether I might get caught! And, of course whether I want to do it enough!
(snip)
> PS Maybe that was a little bit OTT!
I don't think there was anything in your post in the least OTT ! But then, my own attitude to the law has always been entirely pragmatic ... and yes, I do suspect that's partly because the law about same-sex sex was so clearly wrong (even after 1967), and I was very happy to break it for the seven years before I became old enough to be "legal".
Some may think this sits awkwardly with my activism in attempts to change the law - Civil Partnerships and suchlike. But think of it this way ... the law expresses society's approval or disapproval of an act, not its inherent morality, and that's an important signal to send.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Dear NW I really want to hug you for that.
Love,
Anthony
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Can I possibly put a twist on it..
What if both of you were below the age of concent and still wanted to. Would you do it then?
We all love to fantasize. I personally do it quite often, which makes me get an erection and so on and so fourth. If I were approached by such a person, I'd have to say wait till you're older. I'd feel bad even contemplating thoughts of having sex with someone underage. It might be great, but I'd still have a slight guilt trip about it.
This may bring up the question about pedophilia. If you were above the age of consent, a young adult or what not, and you went ahead with it, even though you knew the object of your affection (not meaning to sound demeaning in any way) was underage, then so and so's parent may consider calling the police.
Anyway, it's all up to personal choice I feel. For every action, there's a reaction and possibly a consequence. Boys are not toys to play with. I remember in school, one of my classmates had a pin on her purse that said "Boys are Toys." Now that I think about it, that's a very hurtful statement.
Anyway, as I said, I think it's up to personal choice.
~End~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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Josh *Full of sin...You decide... I'll never tell..* wrote:
> Can I possibly put a twist on it..
>
> What if both of you were below the age of concent and still wanted to. Would you do it then?
I did. And have no regrets whatsoever. Curiously, the only under-age (which was then 21 rather than the 16 we currently have in the UK) sex that has left an ongoing nasty feeling with me was with my first, older, more experienced (I think) boyfriend ... who was still technically under the age of consent, though an adult for voting, driving, drinking alcohol, etc.
The fact that I wouldn't do it now does not invalidate what I did back then.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Dear NW, you wrote:
"I could certainly have done with someone like that back when I was starting out!"
And how! I really needed someone too. If I had had someone I would probably have fallen into fewer bear traps and had an easier time living with myself.
And I think that would really be the problem that this thread poses: how to live with oneself afterwards if one were tempted to do anything.
Love,
Anthony
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Yes, Josh, but it isn't just boys that are not toys; it is people. And whether what you and another person do together counts as treating one or other as a toy is not always an easy thing to decide.
It doesn't always depend on age. Sometimes it is the younger of a couple that is more mature and worldly wise. It may not even depend on experience either. Strength of character is probably the best indicator but I wouldn't trust it alone.
I think I would value informed consent (from someone who was their own person enough to make mature decisions) more than legal age.
But when I was young I doubt whether I could have been trusted to distinguish between love and infatuation. And when one is in love I think one's judgement goes to pot (and commonly one's behaviour too!)
But I wouldn't class an affair between a fifteen year old and a seventeen year old as paedophilia. I think paedophilia is when the child is much younger - below 13 at least and usually the other is at least ten years older and often 20 or 30 years older.
I think society is too ready to label behaviour as paedophilia which may be nothing of the kind. For example Lewis Carroll's relationships with little girls or Edward Lear's relationship with his patron's children.
I do think the test is whether harm is done to either party and that only the parties themselves are qualified to say whether harm was done to them.
Love,
Anthony
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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I never worried about having sex with someone my own age. I was never big for my age nor strong and athletic so there was no question that we were both willing. As typical with youth, we never worried about getting in trouble for it; but the truth is hell would have been paid if someone's parents had found out and called the police.
The problem is when there is a significant age difference or the age of consent has been crossed by only one of those involved.
An interesting side note is what has happened in the US recently regarding nude pictures exchanged on cell phones. Even though all parties are minors they are still being charged with child pornography.
JimB
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That doesn't make sense to me. Why are minors being charged?
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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The law is written in such a way that it doesn't matter what age the person is if they possess a picture of a nude minor. One person that I read expressed the opinion the he doesn't believe that the kids will actually be prosecuted but that the authorities are just trying to scare kids everywhere and impress upon them that they shouldn't be exchanging nude pictures. That may be true but as it stands now they face charges of possession of child porn.
It has become a popular practice, at least in the US, for teens to share nude pictures with their boyfriend/girlfriend via cell phones. Their (the authorities) point is that such pictures can easily end up on the internet. But many share your feelings.
JimB
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Dear JimB,
I did know there was a lot of fuss about child pornography in USA and here but I had no idea that children were being prosecuted for it. I think that if the law supports that the law is wrong.
I think if police take action against underage children they are being immoral.
If a child takes a naked picture of themself no harm is done. If they show it to another child no harm is done. When I was at school we all showered together and that wasn't child pornography.
A hundred and fifty years ago if one went swimming (except on a fashionable beach) the thought of going in with clothes on was just ridiculous. Nowadays one sees people showering with swimming trunks or underwear on! It's a species of madness.
I just don't see what is wrong with nudity. It's like the curfew when I was at university - all female visitors had to be out by 9 pm! (As if there was something that you could do after 9 pm which you couldn't do before.)
I have pictures of me and my brother running about in the garden naked at the age of 3, 4 or 5 and in those days every picture we took was developed and printed by the photography shop. Nowadays if you take such pictures to Boots some upstart in their printing dept reports you to the police.
Long live digital cameras I say. Thank goodness it is now impractical to stop the circulation of naked pictures.
Love,
Anthony
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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acam wrote:
> I think if police take action against underage children they are being immoral.
>
That is a pretty general statement that I disagree with. I know that you said that specifically in regards to the child pornography issue but I still disagree even with that limitation.
The following scenario has actually taken place and the authorities are trying to prevent future occurrences:
A 14 year-old girl has a friend take nude pictures of her using her cell phone which she sends to her boyfriend in exchange for nude photos of him. Two weeks later they break up. He is offended and to get revenge he puts her nude pictures on the internet.
How would you stop this from happening? As I said before, none of the teens have yet to be actually prosecuted though they have been threatened with such.
JimB
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Dear JimB,
How would I stop this happening you ask, I wouldn't even try. I'd just laugh.
I don't think it matters if a 14 year old girl is seen naked - after all what harm is done by that? Naked people are just ordinary people without clothes on and if someone wants to see such things then they can. There are thousands of pictures of naked people on the web (even excluding those put there for titillation) and anyone that wants to make a collection can easily do so. There are nudist beaches all over the world. Every day uncles and aunts are seeing their nephews and nieces in the bath or shower. Given the chance many children will go skinny-dipping.
On the other hand the boy that put them there, especially if he gave name and address details, should be told off as he might be putting the girl into danger from people with regrettable abnormal desires. BTW my desires are normal, I'll have you know!
But 14 year old girls should be well aware of the dangers they might face from the people around them (and family are far more likely to be the danger than strangers are) and these dangers should be explained by their parents or carers and they should be taught how to avoid them or overcome them. In just the same way they should be taught about contraception when they are so young it isn't titillating to them so that, if they do have sex before their parents realise it, they can avoid becoming an unwilling parent.
And telling them "Just say no!" is a total cop-out. THAT won't help them to recognise when danger approaches or equip them emotionally to deal with the stressful situations where they might be in danger!
Knowledge is POWER! Young people need power to use against people that might misuse them (and those people include other young people).
Seeing other people naked isn't the danger! That does no harm. It's what happens when someone forces a child to do things unwillingly that does harm.
And treating people of sixteen or less when they play silly games as if they were paedophiles with criminal intent is just immoral.
Such people are the victims of the organisations like the Roman Catholic Church that think ignorance is bliss and that it's better to have people infected with AIDS than protected by condoms. Such children are ignorant - not criminal.
And since the law on this subject is so profoundly wrong I think that the police ought to be told not to spend any time on such cases.
If I had to make an exception I think it would have to be where a priest and an altar-boy were the people involved. Did you know I used to have sex with a priest!
Love,
Anthony
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pipo
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2008
Messages: 35
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I have to agree with Anthony and disagree with you here. In the case you mention, it is not the picture that is immoral, but the fact that it is shared on the internet without the permission of the subject. And also, age isn't important in the example. I remember a case where the ex-girlfriend of a soccer player shared a movie of their sex play on youtube. The guy was in his 20s at the time, but it still was a huge embarrassment to him and probably damaging to his career as well.
Kids should have the right to experiment without adults damaging them - and prosecution is certainly a very damaging activity in this respect. If that American law is implemented to prosecute children, it is damaging them and not helping society one bit.
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You know, preachers use the gay issue to promote themselves and bring in more money. In the same way prosecutors use the child porno issue to promote their own interest, such as promotions, re-election, etc.. Its a shame but its the way things are. They dont care about the welfare of the child, only what its going to do for them.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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