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RichardG
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Getting started |
Location: UK
Registered: December 2007
Messages: 12
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I've been lurking quietly for a while as is my wont.I thought I would share a recent experience which gave a new insight into the question in the title.
Last week I attended the funeral of a recently-made friend who had died suddenly and relatively young. My friend, after youthful heterosexual experimentation, was enthusiastically gay and made no secret of it. However he had an identical twin brother who was host and celebrant of the secular ceremony.He is not homosexual and married with a gaggle of daughters. He referred to his brothers gayness quite naturally and without the slightest suggestion that he might be even remotely bi-sexual.
It just made me think again about that age old question of are we born gay. No doubt someone somewhere has done a study of the sexuality of twins but this was my first experience of identical twins with totally different sexuality.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I used to chat to one of a pair of identical twins in Iceland. One is as gay as an Easter parade, the other is not. Both played around when kids. Both are secure in their orientation, though I only know this from the gay one.
I suspect we'd have heard about studies on twins.
I've been wondering how to decide about my own homosexuality. I know it came as a horrible shock. I know I was raised heterosexual. I know I expected to fantasise about girls and was horrified that I wasn't.
Equally I was raised and surrounded by women the size of hippos and rhinos. I had love with no affection. Did that put me off women by instinct?
I feel I am gay by nature. But I would. Was it nurture instead? If so what?
It reminds me of the old joke: "My mother made me a homosexual."
"Really? Wow. If I give her the wool will she make one for me as well?"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Perhaps if the identical twins are viewed as one entity - 1 egg, 1 spermatozoon, 1 placenta - their sexulaity can be considered opposite polarities of one object? Ying and yang?
i don't know. I am just musing out aloud.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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I am pretty sure that it isn't a choice, but some of the USA investigations into genetics (they thought at one time that they had found a gay gene) convinced me that it couldn't be purely genetic either.
Maybe we're all bi.
Maybe I'm mistaken in thinking I'm 90% gay. How could I find out?
I don't know.
Love,
Anthony
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The fact that monozygotic ("identical")twins can have different sexualities suggests that sexual orientation is unlikely to be a simple single gene. However, a significantly higher proportion of monozygotic twins have the same sexual orientation (both straight, or both gay) than non-identical same-sex twins do ... so upbringing probably doesn't altogether account for it, either. And the environment within the womb may be subtly different ... things as subtle as which side the mother lies on to sleep in early pregnancy, perhaps?
as I've posted previously, the whole issue of genetic determination and expression is a complex one, anyway. Some of the factors are:
polygenetic characters : several different genes may contribute to the development of a character. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygenetic ). Skin colour is the classic excellent example of a polygenetic character.
penetrance : a highly-penetrant character will show up almost regardless of environmental conditions, whereas a characteristic of low penetrance may or may not show up (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/penetrance ). If you have a collection of genes all tending to make you tall, poor childhood nutrition may nevertheless mean that as an adult you are not particularly tall. The same is NOT true of eg blood type, which is completely unaffected by any external factor.
expressivity : a measure of how much a particular gene deterimines a particular expressed characteristic. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressivity ).
There are lots of other factors as well - mitochondial DNA (inherited only from the mother) may affect the expression of other genes, for example.
But, you know what? I don't actually care what makes me gay - I'm just happy that I am. And that's what counts.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I'm not convinced that it's genetics. I'm also not convinced that it's environment. Most likely it's some combination of the two. I am convinced that it is not a 'choice.'
I can honestly say I never wanted to be gay. I did everything in my power to deny it. I still do. But I can't.
What I can say is that I've been attracted to a handful of girls/women over my lifetime. I've been attracted to a lot of boys/men. I have 'chosen' to act on my attraction to women. I have 'chosen' not to act on my attraction to men. I have never been comfortable with my 'choice.'
Think good thoughts,
e
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acam wrote:
(snip)
> Maybe I'm mistaken in thinking I'm 90% gay. How could I find out?
>
> I don't know.
>
> Love,
> Anthony
My own thinking on what exactly sexual orientation is has been very much influenced by the scales developed by Klein, which breaks it down into what a person actually does, what they'd like to do, what they may do in the future, who they are attracted to, and so forth. There's a copy of the worksheet at http://members.tde.com/ben/kleingrid.html if you're interested.
Although some people have combined the various scores to give an overall figure, for me this isn't really the point of it: I just see it as a useful way of thinking about being gay, and helping to realise the diversity of those who may describe themselves as such.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The grid is interesting, but so many of us self identify as gay yet are exclusively heterosexual in the sex we perform. For me, though this is not actually true, it felt as if I was compelled only to engage in heterosexual sex whatever I wanted to do.
I live a heterosexual lifestyle because of personal choices that I felt were forced upon me. My fantasies are 100% gay, my social contact is with men and women alike. I detest types of men and types of women, and love others as company.
In my world my ideal sexual attraction is heterosexual, but that is also not what I prefer currently. I can go into much more detail, but will be restrained.
Just the grid is not helpful. The grid and thought is interesting
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi, NW, I went to the site you gave a link to and copied the form and filled it in and am now baffled about what it means.
Most of the answers are obvious but some are strange. I mean my sexual behaviour is entirely heterosexual (as you might expect from an honest married man) but my fantasies are entirely gay.
Emily (no 1 daughter) said to me last year "If Sylvia died you would be looking for a man, wouldn't you?" and I had no hesitation in saying "Yes."
I think you may be right that there isn't much point in analysing the scores on the chart. If one thinks about what would be the honest answers the thinking is where the value is.
But if you are interested I'll be glad to send you my scores.
Love,
Anthony
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Oh, dear, e.
you wrote: What I can say is that I've been attracted to a handful of girls/women over my lifetime. I've been attracted to a lot of boys/men. I have 'chosen' to act on my attraction to women. I have 'chosen' not to act on my attraction to men. I have never been comfortable with my 'choice.'
That makes me weep for you. I'm so sorry. And I think I could subscribe to the same sentences but such a lot depends on order.
I was attracted to boys and men - and I acted on that attraction and, I think the last time I had sex with Peter was 1961 or very early 62.
I teamed up with Sylvia in 1962 and got married in 1963 and we are together still and we are faithful to one another (in the sense of 'foresaking all others'). And Peter is dead!
But I didn't deny I was gay. I told her I was and that I didn't want to be and we tried sex together and as that experiment went fine we committed to each other.
And I didn't want to be gay either, but I knew I was and was honest about it. And I still am both gay (90%, I think) and honest - even to my grandchildren.
All my fantasies are gay and nearly all the porn I look at and Sylvia knows - and if she doesn't approve she tolerates!
And we both know I wouldn't be unfaithful if I could avoid it and I am privately sure that she would forgive me if I were and if it happened I'd confess at once.
But, e, you make me feel you haven't reached a comfortable position between your desires and your family.
Do tell me I'm wrong!
Love,
Anthony
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timmy said:
> Just the grid is not helpful. The grid and thought is interesting
and accam said:
> I think you may be right that there isn't much point in analysing the scores on the chart. If one thinks about what would be the honest answers the thinking is where the value is.
Yup, that's very much the point of it for me. We all kinda think we understand what "gay" is in some way, but it's helpful to have some different ways of thinking about it.
I don't think the grid is perfect ... but that's also good; it means I'm thinking! For me, the "Lifestyle" question feels both irrelevant and dated, in that I have a couple of (mainly internet) places where I have friends and do things and are "gay", but that nearly everything else is neither straight nor gay, but completely mixed. In many cases, I neither know nor care whether most of the other people are gay or straight, but know that there are both gay and straight people involved ... this goes for work, for the theatre group I'm involved in, and so forth.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It did make me think. But it made me a little cross that the author thought in such a simplistic manner.
Now I know I could design a better grid, but I know it could never be perfect. Sexuality is not a line.
For example my sexuality is inextricably tied to one boy, and the period when I knew him well. My desires and fantasies are wholly socially unacceptable, and are fortunately less and less possible as time passes. I am oriented to the boy I was and the boy he was, and to the glorious boys that surrounded me as a teenager. Only by great strength of will have I managed to find twenty-somethings attractive, along with the very occasional older man, though that took far less will than finding girls attractive, a thing I can not manage to do!
So this grid concept is doomed to failure in all except the task of provoking thought.
But how many folk will see a grid and say "Yes, that classifies me so I must be somewhere on it" and fail to see that they are outside its borders?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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"But, e, you make me feel you haven't reached a comfortable position between your desires and your family."
I have and I haven't. There's no real simple answer (there seldom is). I've always known I'm gay, but I could never admit it, not even to myself. When I did finally admit it to myself, I allowed myself to begin discussing it, at least on the internet. That's when I found this site. By then it was too late. I was already married and I am very much in love with my wife. I have no desire to be unfaithful to her. I also love having a family.
But the gay/straight issue is something I've struggled with my entire life. It was awful trying to be straight but knowing deep down I was not. I did manage to take a chance on a handful of occasions in my younger days and made some covert and even a couple overt advances towards some young men (all friends) who I thought might be interested. They either ignored it and pretended it never happened and we remained friends or they unceremoniously ended our relationship. Each time I went back to being 'straight.' Oddly enough it was marriage that forced me to admit I am gay. I had found that brief sexual relationships with women were satifying, but a long term commitment to one was not. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the sex. But the commitment made me realize that I will never be able to express myself sexually as the person who I am. So the conflict continues.
I won't consider divorce. I won't consider cheating. I will be happy with what I've got, but unhappy with what I gave up.
I'm not sure that makes any sense.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You could be using my words
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
(snip)
> But how many folk will see a grid and say "Yes, that classifies me so I must be somewhere on it" and fail to see that they are outside its borders?
I'm sure that's true. but I think it's a big advance on the simple-minded gay-bi-straight model, or the Kinsey scale of 1 to 6.
Ultimately we're all different individuals, and should celebrate that ... but it's also useful to consider the things we have in common!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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"Ultimately we're all different individuals, and should celebrate that ... but it's also useful to consider the things we have in common!"
I've often thought that it's the things we have in common that bind us together, it's our differences that make us interesting.
Think good thoughts,
e
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This thread made me think of this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCyC1dZiN8&feature=channel_page
Happy and Im smiling,
Walk a mile to drink your water.
You know Id love to love you,
And above you theres no other.
Well go walking out
While others shout of wars disaster.
Oh, we wont give in,
Lets go living in the past.
Once I used to join in
Every boy and girl was my friend.
Now theres revolution, but they dont know
What theyre fighting.
Let us close our eyes;
Outside their lives go on much faster.
Oh, we wont give in,
Well keep living in the past.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Dear E, you wrote:
I won't consider divorce. I won't consider cheating. I will be happy with what I've got, but unhappy with what I gave up.
I could easily have written that (except I've been unwilling to admit being unhappy with what I gave up). I've lived it too and as I'm now 74 and stayed faithful so far, it would be a pity to break the promise.
And what you say certainly made sense.
I feel for you - and I hope that's not just me being selfish and feeling for myself!
Love,
Anthony
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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"I feel for you - and I hope that's not just me being selfish and feeling for myself!"
Nothing wrong with feeling for yourself. In fact, I believe that you can't feel for someone else, unless you can feel for yourself.
Think good thoughts,
e
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