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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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All my life I have had no difficulty with people of the same sex being in love. I see it as wholly equivalent to people of the opposite sex being in love. I understand love. I see how a man and a man, a man and a woman and a woman and a woman may love each other deeply, deeply enough to die for the other.
I understand sex between men and women, or I do as a man. I understand sex between men and men. But I don't understand what a woman gets out of sex. I can help a woman have an orgasm, but that does not seem to be the be all and end all goal of a woman with sex (and I don't mean procreation, I mean sex).
That means that I do not understand the physical aspects of lesbian sex.
Well, I wouldn't really. After all, though I'm a natural bottom, that is not the same, surely, as a woman being penetrated by a man. And sex need not be penetrative to be fun. But I still don't understand lesbian sex. Love? yes, that is a given. That I understand. But not the physical sex.
Anyone care to help me out?
[Updated on: Wed, 28 January 2009 18:08]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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You may be right, Timmy. I don't know of any Lesbian lurkers here that could come out of the shadows and tell you - and maybe if they tried the terms they used might not be clear to you or me.
I've long thought that many men don't know how to satisfy a woman and many women don't know how to satisfy a man. The thing is, of course, that the orgasm is so overpowering a signal that it would be a real shock afterwards to say "How was it for you?" and to get the reply "Awful".
There is no logical inconsistency in the suggestion that the mental sensation you call 'red' I might call 'green'! Nobody knows what goes on in other people's minds. But I have little doubt that a man is more likely to know how to please another man without tuition than a woman is and mutatis mutandis.
And, are we good at it? How to tell? While we pair up in exclusive pairs nobody is likely to have enough experience to find out, but during the periods and places when promiscuous sex was common maybe there was some evidence collected. Of course, when promiscuous sex is common that may, itself, change what the typical person wants from it. I think it did in the bath-house cultures I've read about. Have you read Robert Rechy? I think Lolita is evidence of a man knowing how to please a girl, whereas Henry Miller's Tropics seem to me too self-centred. Did Henry know how to please a woman who didn't get an orgasm from penetration? It is too long since I read them so I'm not sure.
And, while we are about it I guess we should admit that tastes vary too and what I look for and hope to give may not be what the next person does. And there is no doubt that what I look for and hope to give are basically the same things. That has certainly not been right for some of the people who I've had sex with. It is actually quite dispiriting to try to give a partner a mind-blowing orgasm and discover that what he really wants is to be tied up and tortured.
But the principle of Lesbian sex is surely the same as for gay sex. The aim is to please a loving partner, isn't it?
Love,
Anthony
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Anthony wrote:
>The aim is to please a loving partner, isn't it?
>
I'm not sure why he left it as a question because, with the exception of procreation, there is little doubt about the purpose of sex. Regardless of the gender of the two parties involved (and even more than two) it is all about providing pleasure to your partner(s). The end result may be an orgasm or maybe not or maybe multiple orgasms; but throughout the process there should be pleasure for all parties involved. That, the pleasure, is the objective.
Foreplay is misnamed, in my opinion, because that is where the bulk of the pleasure is derived. The moans, gasps and cries of pleasure from my partner while I kiss, lick, suck and caress him/her is what sex is all about and it can last hours. Bringing pleasure to my partner provides me with pleasure in return. And two women can do it as well as any other combination.
JimB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Are we really so altruistic by instinct? Surely providing pleasure to a partner is a learned response, and to an extent a submissive response even if submission is not demanded?
Surely sex, at least for a man, is the pell mell race to achieve the best orgasm possible?
Even if I am not correct, what is the goal of sex for a woman?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I know I am capable of helping a woman have an orgasm, and of teaching others how to do the same. But that is because techniques for masturbation of women and cunnilingus are simple to teach. And yet that does not explain what a woman truly needs form the physical act of sex.
Men can, in a limited way, be taught how to be good, even great lovers for women. Limited? yes, because no-one, even the women, ever explains what a woman wants or needs in a way men can understand.
Men instinctively know how a male body works so ought to be able to give a man pleasure and assist him to reach an orgasm untutored. I imagine this is the same for women.
But women seem more complex in their attitudes to sex. The full gamut of the emotions "must be" engaged for it to me meaningful, worthwhile. "A quick fuck" does little for them, and is merely a donation to the male (to be held over him later when he forgets an anniversary!).
The whole sex thing seems so filled with inequalities with mixed sex pairings.
Damn. I'm rambling!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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"Surely sex, at least for a man, is the pell mell race to achieve the best orgasm possible?... Even if I am not correct, what is the goal of sex for a woman?"
I don't necessarily agree that the goal of sex for a man is to achieve the ultimate orgasm. While I have spent a good deal of time pursuing such, some of the best sex I ever had did not result in orgasm. Not even one. Yet I still enjoyed the act.
I've had girlfriends (in my younger years) who seemed solelly focus on achieving orgasm. If I finished without giving them one they were quite disappointed and as I result I was disappointed. I've been with others who seemed quite pleased whether they had an orgasm or not.
Collectively, I think that most men do equate good sex with good orgasms. While most women seem to think that good sex leads to good relationships. I think this can explain why men want to roll over and go to sleep while women want to cuddle and maintain intimacy once the act is through. Individually, I think that we are each after something a little bit different and that is regardless of being a man or a woman. I also think that what it is that we are after varies according to the situation.
In short, I don't have a clue.
Think good thoughts,
e
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Providing pleasure to our sexual partners is not an instinct and is indeed a learned response. That is why your second statement, "Surely sex, at least for a man, is the pell mell race to achieve the best orgasm possible", is true for some and the way they operate. But that also is a learned response. We learn how to treat others, including our sexual partners, from our parents, other family members, friends, and environment (meaning the society that surrounds us). How you treat your sexual partners is very much a part of the person you are. As both E and myself have said, a great sexual experience does not have to end in orgasm.
You seem to insist that the goal of sex for a woman must be different than for a man and I could not disagree more. As E said, there are women who feel cheated if the sexual encounter does not result in orgasm for them; even some where it is a "pell mell race" to achieve the best or most orgasms possible. For others it is to bring a much pleasure as possible to their partner over as long a period as possible. These descriptions are identical to those used for men; there is no difference.
As far as bringing pleasure to your partner being a submissive response again I disagree with you. That is no more submissive than is acting kindly towards others. If anything it is selfish, since the more pleasure I provide my partner the more rewarding the act is to me.
JimB
[Updated on: Thu, 29 January 2009 04:30] |
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Yes, Jim, I've given a lot of thought over the years to the question "How do you bring up children so that they will get pleasure from being nice to other people?"
I think if we could solve that problem we could found a society stronger than the spartans. And I, for one, would really want to be part of it.
And I don't know how it happened but I subscribe wholeheartedly to your sentence 'the more pleasure I provide my partner the more rewarding the act is to me.'
Do you suppose my parents can have done something right?
Love,
Anthony
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The only thing I can think of as I read is that it is hard to speak in generalities when it comes to human sexuality!
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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