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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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On this morning's BBC breakfast programme we had an item regarding the potential compulsory teaching of homosexuality to primary school children. That is age rising 5 to 11. This was set against the old "section 28" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28 prohibitions against promoting homosexuality, which have been repealed, but replaced in Kent, i think, with an equivalent local regulation.
The programme showed books for tinies where it was displayed as the norm to have two dads or two mums. The "floor debate" with guests was regarding the age at which it was appropriate to teach children that homosexuality is normal.
And that interested me.
As my son was growing up the insult "GAY!" was bandied about a lot. That is wrong, but it is also "kids!"
When I was growing up there was no thought of homosexuality except as some form of peculiarity that no-one ever talked about. That is wrong but it is excused by the era.
My wife has a professional view on this. She teaches 6 year olds. She says that children need to be taught to respect each other for their similarities and their differences, whatever those may be. If Elsie is left handed, Peter has two mummies, Leigh-Anne is wheelchair bound, Everton flounces like a fairy princess (and yes she taught one such at 6), all are to be respected for each of these things. No-one is to be ridiculed, vilified or specially praised. They are simply to be accepted and understood.
She was very firm. Children, probably to the age of 11, do not need to know, except with honest and age appropriate answers to questions, about any form of sexuality. They need to know about love, kindness, respect, and how not to discriminate. It is not, she believes, a subject to be taught. Instead it is to be handled when it arises in a competent and uncomplicated and unbiased manner.
This is not at variance with whatever sex education is given to young children because that allows competent handling of questions.
As a gay man and a father I agree with her. I think we should handle questions well, and not force extra and often unwanted knowledge onto kids. And I have a heterosexual example.
My very best friend at school, Michael Bailey, was horrified when, at 10, we were given the sex talk (1962). The entire concept revolted him. He went home and told his parents how disgusting they were to have done that. He was not ready to hear it, and the knowledge was too much for him. The poor boy was deeply traumatised by it. He was the exception in that he spoke about it. Other boys will also have been disgusted, others will have wanted to have a go at it. For most it was simply irrelevant.
What do you think about teaching rising fives about homosexuality? And, if you had to do it, how would you think it best be done? Or would you refuse?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Fingolfin
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Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
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I absolutely agree with you, Timmy, and the opinion of your wife. I would like to live to see the picture you painted in real everyday life. Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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She paints it every day in her work.
The lad, Everton, not his real name, loves pink unicorns, chandeliers, princesses and dresses. He even comes to school wearing lacy girls' socks (which, since they are non uniform, and this school has a uniform is discouraged for that reason alone). Everton is regarded by the other kids as Everton, not as a possible transgender lad, or a flaming queen.
And that is the way it should be.
Education about orientation is not the same as sex education. Sex education is the technical discipline of the act of (potential) procreation. It is a scientific subject divorced from emotions. It is intellectual. It has nothing to do with desire nor with orientation, unless and until the questions (at ages up to at least 11) are asked.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Timmy, I think 11 is far too late.
Children ask questions about where they came from very much earlier, not long after they have enough language to be able to ask the questions. Parents that don't answer honestly start building up their problems there.
That gooseberry bush has a lot to answer for.
My grandchildren, of course have known I was gay so long they can't remember when they were told and I can't remember either - but they still used the word 'gay' as a term of abuse in the playground.
And I agree with Mel that children do not need to be sat down and told about any sort of sex as a lesson at any particular age. I'm amazed by Michael Bailey's reaction though. Surely it must have been a rather bad sex talk or maybe he was specially unready for it.
Many children live close enough to animals for their curiosity to be aroused by copulation and male dogs' attempts to shag feet or legs or other (male) dogs will give rise to questions. If they don't it may be because the parents have given off too much embarrassment or disapproval on previous occasions. I guess we are all of us liable to do that, particularly if we were not dealt with honestly by our own parents.
Mine could never talk about it and, although my mother wasn't shy about her body, the only time I ever saw my father's penis was when a blanket slipped as he lay on his death bed.
And, I think the possibility of two people of the same sex loving each other should be accepted by parents and children from the youngest age and it will seem natural to them while their friendships are not sexual and when they learn more about reproduction they may ask about people of the same sex and, of course they have to be told, honestly.
Of course most parents don't know enough and so can't answer all the questions and should honestly admit it. Maybe I should ask my grandchildren what they have been taught about sex. Maybe I will!
But I keep pointing people to the excellent web sites that answer questions about homosexuality such as the mailcrew. It helps because what most people ask as the first question is what homosexuals do in bed and most people who think they know actually don't know.
But, Timmy I think it's a bit like this site, which is a counterbalance to the many sites which see homosexuality as something pornographic and mechanical. What is needed is an explanation in emotional terms about loving other people. And to point out that you can't help who you love and that as people are people any of them may discover at any time that they love someone of the same sex.
And among our acquaintance are also at least three trans sexuals and I admit I am inhibited by embarrassment from asking them freely all the questions I would like to.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I thunk you are mistaking sex education for the teaching of homosexuality.
Sex education is a factual description of putative procreation. It includes good, honest answer to questions, always bearing age appropriateness in mind.
We really don't need to know about orientation at all in order to discuss similarities, differences and discrimination. We should discuss that at all ages.
There is a major difference between knowing that something is one of the many shades of normal, though the woman on TV this morning said we were abnormal, and teaching that it's a good thing to go and have a go at. We need to let our kids develop naturally, not educated into someone else's idea of normality.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I did ask them, Timmy, and neither children nor grandchildren can remember when they learned about sex or homosexuality. None of the grandchildren is interested and they really wanted to talk about something more interesting.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I find that extremely interesting. That none was actually interested.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy's wife has given a wise and measured response to the question posed by social engineers and the advantage is that she works with children on 'the shop floor', as it were.
If anything, this concept of teaching homosexuality at a young age justifies section 28. There was a lot of muddled thinking about it. The section prevented the promotion of homosexuality in state maintained schools. This was interpreted, with the usual gold-plating of regulations, as a complete ban on answering questions and discussing the matter when it came up.
The sentence that concerns me is:
»The programme showed books for tinies where it was displayed as the norm to have two dads or two mums.«
As much as I am sympathetic towards the cause of male and female homosexuality, it is not the norm and we must be content with being a minority and with being different, for which we deserve tolerance. This proves the social engineers' have their own agenda.
I remember preventing a girl of 10 getting raped by a boy of 10 at school bcause I naïvely said you won't get such a big thing as that into such a tiny hole. How wrong I was, but the outcome was good.
Children are more enlightened now than they were when we were that age and so their questions need dealing with frankly when they arise, but there is no need to anticipate them. Knowledge is good, but much of it should be a a need to know basis.
Hugs
N
PS - I was interested to hear on the wireless today that top civil servants and senior police were amazed to discover that there is still 'institutional racism' among the rank and file police. Haven't they just missed the point? That these people in ivory towers are remote from what's going on while the rank and file have their finger on the pulse. (I expect to get into hot water for saying that!)
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Fiveis definitely too young. 11 is just about right. I had sex education in the spring of my sixth grade year. I was 12 but a few of my classmates were still 11. That was also the same year we began changing in the locker room for gym class and I was exposed to the naked bodies of my classmates for the first time. Most of us boys were still about a year away from puberty, but the girls were already starting. We were all capable of understanding the subject matter. I'm not sure that would have been the case a year earlier. I think the basics of homosexuality can be taught right along with the basics of sexuality at that age.
Prior to that I think it should be up to the parent to teach their children all they need to know or all the parent wants them to know. If the subject comes up in school it should be handle the same as discussing the differences in race, sex, religion, etc. The children can be informed that some people are different and we should accept the differences, some men like to be with other men, women with women, etc. The 'sex' part doesn't really need to enter the discussion.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Yes, Timmy, I find it odd. Gemma was 13 two days ago and Tom will be in August (when the other two will be eleven!).
But I think it is healthy too. They don't believe anything would be said that they don't already know about!
That's good, I think.
Love,
Anthony
[Updated on: Thu, 26 February 2009 12:14] |
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I noticed that, Nigel, but I think Timmy meant 'normal' - not 'the norm'.
And I think our language is wrong, too. What you prevented is, legally speaking, rape but ought not to be thought of like that at all.
But I'd like to know what the good outcome was.
And the 'need to know' slogan is, in some ways, as bad as the US forces 'don't ask; don't tell'. Some children don't ask and then accidentally become parents at 13. And even some of those that do ask.
If the children you are bringing up never show any curiosity or ask the embarrassing questions then I'd guess something is wrong and they've picked up the signals that the topic is out of bounds.
So I don't agree that you shouldn't anticipate. Anticipation of disasters sometimes helps to prevent bad consequences.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Had I chosen the word I would have said "one of the many shades of normality"
It was being promoted as, if not "the" norm, certainly "a" norm. And it is not. This presentation prompted the Campaign for Real Education spokesman to say that homosexuality is abnormal.
If Kinsey is correct, 10%, while a significant minority, is not abnormal.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I don’t know if this has been suggested yet, but how about when they start asking about stuff like that?
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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In schools like the one my wife teaches at, some of the 5 year olds have a different uncle every night of the week, and others have a stable home environment. Some are abused, others not. So how wodul you do that. Peter asks why Uncle Robert keeps putting his willy in peter;s bottom in class. Does that trigger the discussion?
In fact the teachers are very limited about social topics. They may NOT discuss death, for example, no, not even of a rabbit, at this age. The subject MUST be changed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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With reference to Anthony's and Timmy's replies:
The good outcome was that a girl was not raped.
In using the term 'need to know' I was thinking of the questioner's need to know because his curiosity had reached that point. I'm not sure of the significance of 'don't ask: don't tell'. Curiosity makes the person ask. Perhaps I am overrating the intelligence/curiosity of the average person. As a schoolmaster I always encouraged being questioned.
The concept of 'a norm' is a contradiction and a nonsense. I still cannot accept that a family with parents of the same sex is normal. That is at best wishful thinking, at worst social engineering. I accept, however, that it may be a fact.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Timmy wrote:
»In fact the teachers are very limited about social topics. They may NOT discuss death, for example, no, not even of a rabbit, at this age. The subject MUST be changed.«
This is totally wrong. There is more likelihood of trauma caused by avoiding the subject. Children are very pragmatic at this age. The skilled teacher can do this sensitively. Perhaps Uncle Robert should be subjected to social services and Peter should be in a safe place.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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She thinks that is bizarre, too. But "some parents do not wish death to be handled as a topic" is the mantra.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It appears that many alleged families are not "normal", and, while homosexuality is by no means abnormal, it is assuredly not usual for a family unit of a pair of same sex adults with one or more children. It is unusual enough to say "not normal"
I do quarrel with the more pejorative usage of "abnormal" in this context, however, especially since it appeared to be directed against homosexuals rather than a putative family.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Nigel wrote:
> Perhaps Uncle Robert should be subjected to social services and Peter should be in a safe place.
Under that circumstance the child did declare it in a round-about manner(his behaviour was extremely odd), and the parents were called in discuss it. They discovered that Uncle (I think the mother's brother) had been assaulting their son and daughter, and he is now enjoying a secure home as a result.
The boy's behaviour has returned to more normal things and it is assumed that he is now ok. That depends, of course, on the level of "you are a VICTIM" that was created in his head, and the actual physical hurt that was inflicted.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Thank the Great Spirit that wasn’t about homosexuality, and the subject did come up and was dealt with.
As to when kids start asking about sex not just observing the differences between the sexes, that’s an unknown to me I have no kids and have spent very little time around the little curtain climbers and rug rats hehe (No offence meant to those of you have children).
How can I even discern something like that my own experience seeming to have come from another dimension altogether as most of us old are aware sex was an underground issue much less homosexuality. Actually most of my knowledge of what that was grew with my experience, though I did have exposure to a vague concept of what homosexuality was as early as 8 or 9 and practicing it by 11, 12.
So in a world that is at best skewed most of the time, I still think when the child starts asking is the best time and maybe leave dealing with molestation to the education of the adult population rather than slapping the child up side the head with that bit of nastiness at a tender age?
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Teaching should not be parent led. The teachers have a university qualification. The only qualification in teaching that most parents have is that they went to school.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I'm afraid the world has changed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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