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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Ok, it isn't quite as dramatic as that. She isn't dead. But the Dean of the Schechter Institute of Jewish Studies in Israel has 'resigned' after falling student rolls have been attributed by many to be a direct result of her implacable opposition to education of homosexual students for the Rabbinate.
You may remember a recent decision by Conservative Judaism to endorse and ordain gay rabbis. Part of the ordination process is education, and gay students were unable to complete their studies in Israel under the stewardship of Einat Ramon.
It seems that she was, instead, unable to complete her employment under the new rules.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 March 2009 10:42]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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That **sounds** as if it is good news, Timmy. Do we know what other consequences/side effects/fallout are/will be?
I'm extremely suspicious of religions that turn 'liberal'. I'd be glad to know I'm wrong, for once!
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The effect is already that rabbinical students are to attend in the next academic year. Conservative Judaism has not turned liberal overnight, you know. It has been a long and hard fought battle with academics on both sides making strong arguments for and against ordination of openly gay rabbis.
In the global scheme of things this is a small victory. Obviously the woman was fired for the results of discriminatory entry rules causing serious financial loss. That is plain mismanagement and was against policy from all the reports I've heard. Oddly she was the first woman Conservative rabbi, so she really ought to understand minorities!
Liberal? No, I think not. Pragmatic and forward looking is, I think, the right way of looking at things. I never met a liberal religion yet!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Anthony wrote:
I'm extremely suspicious of religions that turn 'liberal'.
Anthony, in order to facilitate our discussion perhaps you could define the term 'liberal' as you use it in this context. I know it would help me to relate to what you have written.
Hugs,
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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OK, JFR, I will try although I expect it will be rather difficult because I guess I was using a combination of shorthand and tokens.
Of course the subject is the attitude of the religions of the book to homosexuality. Having declared in 1607 that it is an abomination in a book that is the word of god it is rather difficult for the CofE to change its mind. But I think it is very unkind to many of their priests who are gay and I do think that the Archbishop of Canterbury behaved abominably to Jeffrey John who was to have been Bishop of Reading.
Similarly the Roman Catholics have mealy-mouthed their way to saying (as I understand their current position) that being homosexual is OK just so long as you don't do anything about it. I sometimes wonder whether their idea is to make as many homosexuals as they can into bitter, twisted and unfulfilled individuals. I bet many Catholics would regard their current position as 'liberal'.
So those two churches do seem to have had a substandard sight of the light - not many gay people would call it an epiphany.
Now the difficult thing would be to define 'liberal'!
Do I have to?
You notice that I haven't mentioned judaism. I really don't know enough about the different sects - from those in London who put string round the area so that they can visit each other on the sabbath to those like many of my schoolfellows who could not easily be distinguished from people like me or the half-hearted adherents of the CofE who I guess were in the majority at my school (founded for the sons of non-conformists) which had no chapel nor acts of worship.
And I used to accompany Peter to his RC church and wait while he confessed me as a sin. And my fundamentalist friend Graham will, if pushed, tell me that yes, he believes I will go to hell! And I have had other relationships with priests and their friends none of which have endeared any church to me. Do you blame me?
Have I obscured things or did that help?
Love,
Anthony
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Hi Anthony,
Thanks for taking the trouble to respond.
I'm not sure that we can have a fruitful discussion on this matter because it sounds as if you know less about Judaism than I know about Christianity. I asked for your definition of 'liberal' in the context of religions because your original query was about 'religions' and not specifically limited to Christianity (which seems more likely from your response to me).
Most religions are by nature 'conservative' and depend heavily on tradition. It would be invidious of me to claim intimate knowledge of the extent of religious conservatism within the various Christian sects. It would be foolish of me to suggest that all sects in Judaism are 'liberal': that is far from the truth.
But I don't approve your generalization about 'religions', because there are some sects in Judaism that try very hard to temper their traditionalism with a modern liberal approach. As Timmy has suggested, Conservative Judaism (which is the stream within Judaism that is the subject of this thread) despite its name is very liberal. Over the past quarter-century this stream within Judaism has instituted egalitarianism (between men and women) in most of its congregations, has ordained women as rabbis, has ordained gays and lesbians, and has instituted religious commitment ceremonies. That is not a bad record for a traditionalist stream. Of course there are die-hard traditionalists who make waves, like the woman that prompted this thread. But they are a decisive minority and they are losing the battle.
I will not clutter up this already long message with details. Perhaps the best thing I can say is that we should not tar all religions and all sects within religions with the same brush - because that is usually not helpful.
With apologies for an over-long post.
Hugs,
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Dear JFR,
I agree we shouldn't tar all religions with the illiberal brush, and I suppose that is where I should stop in this place of safety..
There is a lot more that is wrong about (some) religion than mistreatment of homosexuals. You might even agree on that but I'm sure here isn't the place to discuss the details and find out where we part company.
As I think you might agree, at our fairly advanced ages neither of us is likely to change our opinions far, however cogently the other argues so maybe we should stop - or if either wishes to go on we should do it in emails.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Slightly odd the way this route has gone. I am rejoicing about one more obstacle to my feeling normal being removed somewhere in the world. I'm not really sure how we ended in in a discussion about liberalism.
Since we are, I would just like to say that I detest all the religions that I have an understanding of because they are controlling bodies. I don't happen to have an imaginary friend, but I accept other people's right to believe in one.
But I am celebrating one extra small freedom and the removal of one self declared intolerant woman from a place of trust and power.
Ding dong the witch is dead!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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