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My boyfriend and I whill have been going three months on wednsday, and thinking about the "a moral question?" post made me realize how much I seem to be the child in the relationship. Don't get me wrong, I'm in like with him still, and we've not yet had any bumps in the road so far, it seems the relationship is going well, but he just has so much more experience in - basically everything - than I seem to have. Is it wrong that our relationship seems unbalanced?
He only finished school four years ago, and he's only two years my senior, but he has been (and is still legally) married with a woman, and has a son somewhere in the country, he's been engaged to a previous boyfriend and co-owns a house with him, has his grade-8 music degree, a Masters in genetics and is studying towards his Bachelors of Chemistry, with education certification, competes relatively competitively in dancing, owns a car and has a steady job as the night-shift manager of a restaurant simultaneously, with experience teaching high-school as well. And I? Well, I have had none of those things, I don't even have my licence yet, only a learners drivers licence. Add in that my list of boyfriends have been rather short, and my sexual experience rather little compared to his, and I sometimes get kindof depressed with myself that I have so little real life experience to offer my relationship.
Sure I dress well, and I practically have to choose his clothes for him if I don't want to despair about his fashion crimes, and I organise and run his flat, wash clothes and dishes some days, organise and file his notes and fix the disorganisation in the place and call his maid and cook supper some days when I sleep over, but my talents still seem in rather short supply - and to be honest, I dislike the seemingly stereotipical feminine role I'm falling into here - despite the stereotyped gay male immage, I like and revel in my masculinity and have never been the high-voiced limp-wrist kind of gay man that some of my friends are.
Well, anyone have advice about what I should do? Not do? Change, before it becomes habit? I want to assert my equal-partnership, without critisizing or blame or arguments, and it seems quite difficult.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Are you loved? Do you love him?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I wouldn't yet use the word 'love' - I really do reserve that for truly special occasions, However, I certainly do like him and all his quirks even when I realise they will become very irritating later on, and he hasn't minded that I seem to be less experienced and he definitely likes me, cares for me however he can and I do the same, perhaps even loves me, I cannot say with any certainty yet. We haven't had any fights or major disagreements or clashes of oppinion - perhaps some scheduled, planned and directed communication is in order, just to clear the air from the unsaid before it multiplies?
Still, is that enough? I know no-one else can really anelise my relationship as I can, but I can't help but ask, what should I do?
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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You've described a lot of differences between the people that the two of you are and they may be or become significant. Of importance in any relationship are the areas you have in common; likes, dislikes, hobbies, etc. What are the things that you have in common?
Though he is only two years older than you he has done many more things in life than you have, has many more life experiences. This, in your words, seems to make it an "adult-child" relationship and I'm not sure that I agree with that. You also suggest that it results in an "unbalanced" relationship and again I am hesitant to agree. What do each of you contribute to the relationship? What do you contribute to it? If nothing, then you are correct. However, it is not necessary, and the relationship probably would not work, for you both to contributed the same things to the relationship. An equal partnership does not mean contributing the same things but contributing things of equal value to the partnership.
You say that it sometimes depresses you that you don't have more life experiences to contribute to the relationship. I suggest that it isn't life experiences that either of you contribute but rather what you do today. Again I ask, what do each of you contribute to your relationship? Answering that question and the one above about what you have in common will lead you to a better understanding of your relationship and what its future may be.
What draws the two of you together? If it is just sex then you have a problem because it takes much more than just sex for a long-term relationship to succeed.
I hope this has been helpful.
JimB
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Well - he contributes most of those things which require money. That sounds kind of cold - but he's the provider, getting what we need, planning way ahead for things. And hes nice and warm on cold nights.
I try to provide stability and order, the little day-to-day things, like remembering when something has to be done, and do stuff around his flat, talk to him and mediate when our friends irritate him and makes sure he doesn't drink too much when we go out, remember where he puts his stuff. I just talk and listen and fix problems before they start, put him in bed when he gets home when I can. I try to tackle the emotional side of things and take things as I go along.
He's the spontaneous, chaotic one. I'm the perfectionist.
PS - I had this strange protective feeling everytime I type something, I erase it four times? Is that some sign?
PPS - The sex is good too, schedules permitting
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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Oh, my Zeus, Pseidon and Hades, I forgot to put in what we have in common. Hmmm...I shall leave out the sexual fetishes from this thread completely.
We study very similar things, our outlook on morality, religion, sport, politics, electronic devices, smoking, physical properties of people and the types of alchohol we like are pretty much identical. The last was very important, actually. We had alot of friend-ish people in common even before we met, coming from rival high-schools, both head-boys. We tend to disagree on poetry and Nitsche, but we like a few overlapping music genre's and movies. We both don't like each other's parents, and our parents dont like either of us- together, seperately or just generally - even though they don't know we are anything but 'friends', they might perhaps suspect something.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Please do not take my comment below the wrong way, it is not meant to offend.
Dewald van den Berg wrote:
> Well - he contributes most of those things which require money. That sounds kind of cold - but he's the provider, getting what we need, planning way ahead for things. And hes nice and warm on cold nights.
>
> I try to provide stability and order, the little day-to-day things, like remembering when something has to be done, and do stuff around his flat, talk to him and mediate when our friends irritate him and makes sure he doesn't drink too much when we go out, remember where he puts his stuff. I just talk and listen and fix problems before they start, put him in bed when he gets home when I can. I try to tackle the emotional side of things and take things as I go along.
>
> He's the spontaneous, chaotic one. I'm the perfectionist.
You have done a very good job of describing my parents' relationship; and it lasted for nearly 65 years, only my mother's death ended it.
Isn't what you contribute just as important as what he contributes? In the future, when your education is completed, you too will likely be providing financially but that likely will not be your most important contribution. Even today you can participate in the planning of things by suggesting what you would like to do.
Each of you are contributing different things but your relationship doesn't seem as unbalanced as your initial post suggested.
Keep thinking about what you have in common and what draws you together as these are important areas to understand.
JimB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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Dewalt, the balance is there. I feel you are offering a grounded relationship which he may not have had. Money doesn't buy balance.
However, I do tend to be more optomistic in a relationship. In past gay relationships, I have asked lots of questions about us. It's kept my sense of optimism and balance knowing I can ask my boyfriends anything.
Raymundo
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The answer (after looking at the rest of your replies to date) depends on the reason you are asking the question. I think you know that.
Are you asking in order to have your relationship affirmed positively by the people here, or are you asking so that you may have an excuse to part?
From the information you have given you will receive both answers or will interpret them as such. So look into your heart and say what you see.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dewald, I think the reason that Sylvia and I have stuck together so well is because of our agreement on fundamentals and on how important the fundamentals are to us. I guess for some people it wouldn't be important to agree with your partner on religion; for us it is. (So I am encouraged by the agreement between you on what is important.)
The fact that Sylvia and I are both would-be philosophers. The fact that we have many intellectual pursuits in common. The fact that when I discovered APL Sylvia took to it faster than I did. I think I rather agree with Ford Maddox Ford when he wrote (in 'Parades End' putting the words into Christopher Tietjens' head):
. . . . he could be sitting talking to her for whole afternoons. That was what a young woman was for. You seduced a young woman in order to to be able to finish your talks with her. You could not do that without living with her. You could not live with her without seducing her; but that was the by-product. The point is that you can't otherwise talk. You can't finish talks at street corners; in museums; even in drawing rooms. You mayn't be in the mood when she is in the mood - for the intimate conversation that means the final communion of your souls. You have to wait together - for a week, for a year, for a lifetime, before the final intimate conversation may be attained . . . and exhausted.
[I apologise for 'souls' but I didn't feel authorised to misquote.]
I hope you agree that the fact that it is expressed in heterosexual terms and in 1920s language doesn't invalidate it.
I think that when you don't want to talk to your partner any more that it's over.
Apropos of nothing:
The look of love alarms,
Because it's filled with fire;
But the look of soft deceit
Shall win the lovers hire
* * *
Soft deceit and idleness
These are Beauty's sweetest dress.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Dee, Before I start, let me say what a thrill it is for me to impart my aged wisdom to a young wipper-snapper like yourself. Thanks for providing the opportunity. Next, I should say that I have no wisdom, but thank you for indulging a busted down old man by reading what I say. I only know that I am happy and content and what I say here is the way I have lived.
You decry your inexperience. So it sounds like you feel a need for some. What in heaven's name do I mean by that? Am I against committed relationships? Of course not. But everything in its time. You and your boyfriend are both very young. Your friendship is a beautiful thing. But I doubt that either of you have tasted all of the variety that you want to experience in life. I think that you should treat your friendship as just that; a loving friendship and permanent support. Having said that, I think both of you should give each other explicit permission to mess around with the guys of your choice. Obviously, protection and safety are of tantamount importance in this type of open relationship. If you are meant to be a couple, you will always return to each other, assured that what you have is better than your erstwhile fantasy. Love each other with open hands. Love is a butterfly, if you clench it tightly, you crush it. If you give it freedom to fly away and explore, it will come back to you. Don't let your relationship become a shackle to restrict your freedom before you have even begun to explore that freedom. Don't crush it with jealousy and exclusivity. Just give it time and freedom to grow. It worked for my 9 year open relationship with a guy 26 years my senior. Perhaps it can work for you.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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But, Macky, you didn't have an open relationship like that with your wife, did you?
Sylvia and I discussed it and agreed that we would be faithful to each other unless we were forced by circumstances to live apart for 'a significant period'.
I was amazed when I found out that Sylvia's idea of 'a significant period' was a fortnight!!!
And as it happens I don't think we have ever slept apart for a whole week.
If we had had an open relationship I think much could have gone wrong that didn't because we were not open to it. We had one pair of friends who tried partner-swapping with their neighbours. The husband preferred the neighbour's wife and they went off together leaving two broken homes. Not good. I sometimes wonder whether the extra enjoyment they got from the change of partner could possibly have made up for the pain that the other six people suffered. I don't think it could have done.
And there is no doubt that from time to time I found myself strongly attracted to other men. I could easily have yielded if we hadn't agreed to be 'faithful'.
All I am saying is that open relationships can be dangerous because the grass on the other side of the fence looks greener while you are on this side of it.
And I don't think that the homosexual situation is much different - agreed that there are usually no children to consider.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Yes acam, I have been totally faithful to my wife for 23 years, and I plan to be totally faithful for the rest of my life. But our relationship began when we were 37 years old, not 18 or 20. Per my experience that makes all the difference in the world. I would hope that Dee has a permanent exclusive relationship as his goal. I just find it hard to believe that such a lifetime committment can be made at such a tender age. Or, maybe I'm just bad. BTW, my 9 year relationship with John ended when I asked to make it exclusive and he could not go along with that.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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We have talked about a potential open relationship - and I have told him that I wouldn't mind if he had someone else that I knew about, or even if I didn't, and however deep that relationship became I would like to think that I wouldn't be jealous.
However, he wasn't thrilled with the idea and perhaps a little jealous, I think, that I could then go out and have a short sexual relationship with anyone else - even though I don't think I would use the opportunity.
Perhaps my motivation was insecurity, or even lust, I cannot now recall which, but we talked the thing out. Unless things change, I don't think I'll bring it up again
So we have agreed to stay monogmous (is that the right term?)
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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Truth be told, I'm rather comfortable in my relationship, and I wouldn't do anything to sabotage it. However, it hasn't seemed to go beyond the stage of 'like'. I want it to turn into love. Perhaps because we skipped the akward dating or friend stage completely and flew right into a full blown sexual and monogomous relationship at the first meeting already. Its slow going, and learning as we go along. I'm at that stage where I learn the small important things everyday, and it might have left me depressed or strangely happy on and off when I think about it. For the time being, what I think I need is time and patience and slog through the things ahead. A pat on the back would be appreciated, and positive thoughts too - I don't want to get an excuse to leave, if I do leave it will be because of a good reason I can see for myself - and thats not happened yet.
PS. Thanx Timmy, you're like a little man on my shoulder helping me help myself.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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See what you are saying here, Dee. You wanted an open relationship. He didn't, so you won't. That sounds like a lopsided agreement. That kind of stuff does not bode well for a relationship. You both have to be free to be yourselves or it won't work. That's what I think anyhow.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Seems to me that you and he need a quiet chat. He may not know you need to feel appreciated. Do you show him you appreciate him?
Love is an odd critter. It can happen "out of the box" or it can grow. In either case one has to work to make sure it doesn't fade. And it is the little things that do that 
I never dated either. It makes for a substantial relationship, though not always an exciting one.
You know you love him when you could not bear someone else to have him in your place.
Many great relationships work on the basis of mutual liking.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Five years ago I helped celebrate the 50th anniversary of a gay couple. Their's was an open partnership and both have slept around. I guess there were other things that cemented their relationship to keep them together for so long. But what works for some won't necessarily work for others. If your boyfriend has grudgingly given you permission to have sex with others, but he himself wants to remain faithful, there could be trouble brewing around the corner. He may always be afraid to have the two of you associate with other gay men or couples for fear of losing you in a side relationship. It sounds as though you have a 'one man' guy. So I think your decision to make it a monogamous relationship was a good one. And I send best wishes to you both.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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Since I married, I have been with her exclusively in our relationship. But it's been a works in progress in my mind. I hope we never get too comfortable or complaicant with one another. We've a good family and are caring for a lovely daughter.
And I can still have contact with gay guys if I chose but try not to. I am allowing contact with gay men via places like this, with some chat rooms (without romance or such involved), emails with one of my former boyfriends who has been a giant of support in my evolving gay life. I can say that I will always be in a good relationship (however, as I said earlier, my wife is not as tolerant about my gayness as before). It will always be a life in works.
Raymundo
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Hi Dewald,
Talk to him. But before you do, take stock of what you want from the relationship. You say he's married. Unless he's leaving his marriage, the relationship will have its limitations. You say it's unequal. Is it really? I bet you bring a lot to the relationship that you don't even realize. You don't like the feminine role. Is it really feminine? Or is it your contribution to the relationship that makes it less one sided? You have life experience otherwise you wouldn't be alive. You may not be as worldly, but don't sell yourself short.
After you've decided what you want, ask him what he wants. Can you both get what you want? You say you like each other. Is that enough? Or are you looking for love? You need to discuss it with him. But do it in a non threatening way. Don't accuse, but do have a serious conversation. It doesn't need to be an argument, just an assessment.
Think good thoughts,
e
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