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As per My earlier thought and acam and Macky's suggestions, Im starting a new post about parenthood - specifically where it comes to homosexual parenting, which is both very similar and slightly different to childrearing for a heterosexual couple.
First, My curiosity is killing me - just how would a gay man or lesbian woman for that matter, perform the natural process of coitus neccesary to produce offspring in mammals. I know the physical process required, of course. LOL - that sounded a bit like a biology textbook, but the question remains valid. I simply would not be able to get it up or get energetic enough about the subject to perform the acts neccesary. I doubt even artificial stimulants, alchohol or the many and varied legal and illegal mind-altering substances would be able to do the job. Perhaps I'm just at the very extreme of the homosexual-heterosexual scale, I know that research has proven most people are somewhere in the middle - but Ive never even kissed a girl, or had the stomach or urge to do it. Perhaps everyone encounters an exception - a single person or two to whom they are physically attracted despite that fact of that person being of the opposite gender to whom they are normally attracted to.
My second question is generally applicable to all couples, irrelevant of who or what labels they have gotten stuck on their foreheads, and that is, what are the pro's and the con's of childrearing - in the emotional and the plebian cold logical sense concerning money in your old age, etc... So, essentially, should you have children if you could?
Third, does anyone think it a good idea or practical to attempt to raise a child without at least two permanent parental figures in their lives (though with what I've seen, I would think a ratio of three parents per child would be better; perhaps that explains non-religously addopted godparents)
Fourth, is there a good set of curcumstances anyone can advise that would make it a better/worse time in their lives to decide to have children? Financially, emotionally, relationship-wise, education, jobs...etc. I would think the worst possible time to have a child is when you haven't planned for him/her.
Fith, and I know everyone doesn't have such liberal laws concerning gay marriage or adoption as South Africa, so is marriage/civil union/adoption/legal agreement of shared resources really necessary for a couple or group of people to raise a child? Pros/Cons. I know single parent adoption is difficult almost everywhere, and a contract provides a safety net for the child...then again divorce is kinda harsh on kids...I know.
My last immediate question is, how would anyone get kids, what methods in general are available, ignoring the specific legal, physical, emotional and financial hurdles homosexuals might face. Adoption, surogate parenting with sperm donation, normal birth, foster care, etc...and the pros, cons and anything else you can think of.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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As far as this topic goes, it could pretty much be a brave new world, I mean we really haven’t been within the realm of this possibility but for a very short time, certainly gay women have had the opportunity to parent children far longer than gay men.
I have only meat one gay male couple that is raising a child. For them adoption was the answer, they are both medical professionals which I think made it easier for them to adopt a boy born with HIV… There are so many children in this world in need.
I am personally one of those glad I never felt the need to parent a child.
And as simplistic as it may sound, do what ever you do with love.
Peace
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Dear Dewald, did you realise that I'm already feeling a bit guilty that I haven't started to write to you about J which I said I would do. Now it's my fault (I encouraged you) that I have to answer a whole lot of interesting questions.
The answer to your first questions is that I guess you are more nearly 100% gay than anyone I've actually met, but that I had no difficulty enjoying sex with women. None at all. I've had penetrative sex with three. But from the time I remember to have felt sexual attraction at about 18 until I got married at 28 I must have had sex with maybe two dozen men. I think and say I'm 90% gay.
And I always liked children and enjoyed playing with them and so I wanted some of my own. I don't think I've ever met anyone who has children who wished they hadn't but they are a huge strain.
Living together was one stage, buying a run-down house with a mortgage was another and we were both out at work all day so alterations and renewals were hard, and getting married and deciding to start a family was a third.
Those stages were all part of the smooth tenor of our lives and scarcely affected us. Then children arrived and the change was dramatic. The most life-changing experience I've ever had and it was bigger for Sylvia. She stopped work and looked after them - 'them' because after we had Emily with finding that we couldn't just get Sylvia pregnant by stopping contraception we decided not to start contraception again (believing the story that you can't conceive when you are breast feeding). So Alison was born 13 months and ten days after Emily and we had two.
And how right you are that it needs a support system. It was that need that led us to sell up in St Albans and move the 120 miles to be near our children in Bristol. You need two parents, four grandparents, neighbours, friends other relations and it is still hard. How single parents manage is beyond me. The first thing is that looking after a baby takes so much time. The second is that the intervals of peace are short and at first you rarely get an unbroken night's sleep. It is, as Alison said when she had her own, 'unremitting'. There is no escape until the last one starts school and then you can have a rest and my goodness you deserve it.
The big boundary in life is when you get children. I think that bringing up children is the most important thing most people ever do in their lives and it is also one of the hardest to do well. So having children is not something you should do automatically. It is a choice and a commitment that it is impossible to get out of and before you do it you should be sure that you really, really want it. Get acquainted with one or two young families. Try to get the experience of feeding a baby and even of changing a nappy. There is a lot to learn!
And don't you go thinking that they will support you in old age. There is no particular reason they will feel either grateful enough or have a developed sense of duty, never mind hold down sufficiently good jobs. Sylvia and I are 75 and 74 and at present are paying for private education for four grandchildren because the parents can't manage it (and the available state secondary education in Bristol is pretty sub-standard).
I am strongly of the opinion that ever child born should be a wanted child and if possible a child that has been prepared for. And I'm not sure what is the best age of parent to have children. Younger is probably healthier but older is more psychologically and financially stable. Emily was born in 1965 when I was 30 and Sylvia 31. In those days she was what the maternity unit called 'an elderly primate' because in those days most people had had their children by then. They were unwilling to let her have it at home and that was a good thing because the birth was difficult and eventually was resolved by an emergency cesarean.
I don't think any legal arrangements are essential. Alison isn't married to Graeme! But the partners really must be sure that they both really mean to fulfill the implied commitment. Both daughters' first marriages ended in divorce and luckily there were no children. Their second choices are much better but it's lucky that they have stuck. But we make a good support group because we all live within three miles of each other.
In the UK homosexual partnerships are, I think, tolerated much better than they used to be and in particular they are allowed to adopt and I think that would be the best way for such a couple to get a child. And especially if the adoption agencies are finding it hard to place the child. But my life is so cloistered that I have no gay couples among my close friends. And when I read stories that contain gay adoption (like Brew Maxwell's; I sometimes think the rose tint in the spectacles through which you look at the Foley-Mashburn saga is a bit too strong.)
I'm not as set on promoting my own genes as some people would be. It took long enough to get Sylvia pregnant the first time for us to discuss it. There is always the risk that your child could inherit all the worst genes from both partners. I think it would make very hard work of the process to use a surrogate mother - all sorts of legal processes and places where things can go wrong.
Now that was the longest post I've ever written. Ask more questions. Anything you like, nothing is off limits and I promise to tell you the truth.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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“First, My curiosity is killing me - just how would a gay man or lesbian woman for that matter, perform the natural process of coitus neccesary to produce offspring in mammals.”
For me, love made it possible. My wife is the only woman I ever had sex with or ever wanted to have sex with, and I will never have sex with another. I consider myself exclusively gay in my heart of hearts, yet I have to submit to those who would prefer to call me bi…mainly my wife. Let me try to explain myself.
I always had female friends. They are easier for me to talk to. When I talked to guys, there was a sexual overtone. It was hard for me to befriend a guy, because I had an interest in his body. A guy was a possible lover, a woman wasn’t, so it was easier to have close female friends.
Then one female friend got to be special. I could tell her things that I could not tell other friends. She was wonderfully accepting of me. She told me that these secret things about myself were wonderful. I really enjoyed spending time with her.
Also, I was despondent about feelings that I had for a young man, that I really did not want to have (too young). When I was with her, the depression lifted. I could have fun with her. I could be absorbed into the relationship and forget about everything else.
Then she fell in love with me. So I had a dear friend, who also had a physical interest in me. It made me think of the way I loved Albert, my first love. That made me want to reciprocate her affection for me. Its hard not to love someone who really loves you. And how could you not reciprocate, when it is your dear friend who has fallen in love with you? Add to this my “impossible” dream of having a son, and you have a pretty good basis for a sexual relationship. So when she invited me to her bed , the die was cast. She was extremely generous sexual partner. By that, I mean that her number one desire in the encounter was to give me pleasure. It was so obvious and so attractive, that it just melted my heart. I would have had to have had a heart of stone not to reciprocate. As to getting it up…she saw to that. It wasn’t a mind thing that got it up but physical things that she did. Then I tried the new thing for me. And, I have to admit it, it was pretty nice in there for my penis. Different from being inside a guy. It kinda moves in there and massages you…makes you want to thrust. So it was easy really. Nowadays my penis will not get hard, so I use my fingers to give her pleasure. And there is a super, giving sort of pleasure in that for me. I enjoy sex with my wife now, because I have the power to make her feel physically good and to be happy. She is my dear friend, and that makes it doubly satisfying to give her pleasure. So I get a full measure of pleasure out of sex with my wife now. I feel good not only because I give her pleasure, but also from the pleasure that she gives me, because she is still a very generous and giving sex partner.
This is getting long. I think I’ll answer your other questions in a second post. If anything here brings up more questions, please ask, even if it seems very personal. Also, if you would like to hear my wife’s side of it, I can get her to write it down and post.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Despite Idaho being a very conservative state (anti gay), it seems that it is possible for a gay man to adopt otherwise unwanted children.
There is a couple in my church who fostered a boy of mixed heritage a few years back. They were later allowed to adopt him. (Only one of the couple was allowed to be the adopting parent because gay unions aren't officially recognized.) The boy is now a very normal seeming, outgoing fourteen year old. And this couple have provided a very safe, nurturing and loving environment for him. The boy is openly affectionate towards his adopted 'Dads' and is now at an age that he is showing interest in girls. It would seem that his role models and parents haven't 'turned' him gay - a constant diatribe of the religious right against gay people adopting or fostering.
They did such a remarkable job raising him and are such nurturing people that they took in two foster girls a couple years back. A year later the girls' younger sister was also placed into their home. Two weeks ago the couple announced that the state had formally agreed to their adopting these three girls. It would seem that occasionally 'who' you are is more important than 'what' you are. Perhaps there is hope for this state yet.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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Ah - that does put things into perspective. This is how I understand your post. Correct me if I'm wrong. I know you are both commited, in love (which is really sweet after such a long time) and monogomous. Your wife was the obviously the exception to your normal attraction, more so because of her good personality, love for you, comfort, understanding and friendship you two shared than any physical attraction you may have had initially had when you had just met. So the emotional side of attraction initially played a bigger role than the physical, which came later merely as a consequence of loving each other. I can immagine that the physical stimulation plays a bigger role than the mind during the act - but forgive me if I do not immagine too deeply.
Basically - love overcomes even the most unlikely barriers. And I don't think I've ever heard a better definition or of a truer type of love than that.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Dee, Your interpretation of my answer to your first question was right on target. Now on to the second;
"pro's and the con's of childrearing"
Pro;
1. To know a different kind of love. For me, as for many parents, it is unconditional. Being able to love unconditionally makes me feel very good about myself.
2. TO become one with the one you love most. Did you ever feel like you wanted to press your body right into your lover's body and melt right into him? Love makes you feel that way. Well, having a kid with someone you love is a way to become one with the one you love. And, for me anyhow, that is very special. My body and my wife's body are inseparably joined together in another living human being. Our son is our love, visible in the flesh.
3. Chance to be one of the most important people in a child's life. It worked for me. There is something wonderful about a little kid thinking that you are the greatest. Most parents are cast out of their ivory tower for an interval during the kid's adolescence (personally haven't experienced this), but that is a con and doesn't belong here. And often, with time, people look back and understand and again grow fond of their parents.
4. Everyone has a need to be needed. Having a kid satisfies this need for the rest of your life.
Cons;
1. Financial responsibility
2. Restricts your freedom. For most parents this restriction starts to ease up a bit when as the kid becomes more independent and it eases up a lot when the kid moves out. But it's never gone. Those blessed with unconditional love are on the hook till death, if their child ever needs help. Our personal freedom has been restricted more than most. Our son is legally blind, has Asperger's, his kidneys failed when he was 7, and there are a host of lesser maladies. For years of peritoneal dialysis he took virtually all our time, including many lost work days. This dialysis is done in the home through a catheter installed in the abdomen. We had to scrub and mask and hook him up to the dialysis machine each night and repeat the process taking him off in the morning. I went under the knife and gave him one of my kidneys, but it was lost through the hospital's incompetence in not prescribing testing for a relatively newly discovered clotting abnormality. Let me just plug organ donation at this point. The difference it made in my son's life is absolutely huge. Our gratitude to the anonymous donor's family will last our lifetimes. Now, our son is the product of not only my and my wife's body joining, but also of an unknown deceased third party, whose kidney lives on in my son.
3. But in all honesty, there are no cons to having a child for me. Everything I sacrifice for my child is a labor of love and thus, a joy. I had a very good idea of what having a kid would mean to me before we had one. I wanted one very badly...probably more than I've ever wanted anything else in my life. And it has been my greatest joy in life by far. Study yourself closely and don't ever have a kid if you can think of something that you would enjoy more.
Again, this post is getting too long. I'll address your other questions in a third post.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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My Lord, there's so much to address. First, I think there's much common sensabilities about having a child and raising a child which was stated well by Macky and acam. On a personal note, we had our baby very late. I was almost 50 and my wife 44. So that made me take the child responsibility to more of an extreme (the hyper worried dad). But most friends and family felt this was not to be a problem for us because they knew us. That simple acknowledgment was more than enough for us and for me in particular to raise our daughter confidentily.
I have more interest in DeWalt's first subject. I do admit and will in my heart admit that I find gay love very sweet. I stil have strong emotional feelings for my first boyfriend/lover and we have stayed in contact with one another for over 30 years. Why we broke off the relationship is due to youthful mistakes. He and I realise that we were a wonderful match and made a mistake to break up. And that we didn't try hard enough to get back together. So, if we didn't break up, we'd be living together and I'd be at 100% gay. Which brings the rub that I wouldn't have my daughter or wife in my life. Now, my daughter and wife are my relationships of heart. So too is my boyfriend. I tend to feel that this is having the best of both worlds: to have a great daughter and wife and still feel a strong affection for my boyfriend (I do call him my boyfriend but carry that title in my heart). I do feel this is right for me. One day, I may tell my daughter about him and my love for him. Right or wrong?
Raymundo
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Oh! Right, Raymundo, at least in my mind there is no question. And I was heartened to hear about you boyfriend too. I never had a lover as a boyfriend but even some of the others would still do for me.
But my children and grandchildren all know I'm gay and something about my past and now the grandchildren are approaching puberty I feel I can tell them more.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Dewald van den Berg wrote:
> My second question is generally applicable to all couples, irrelevant of who or what labels they have gotten stuck on their foreheads, and that is, what are the pro's and the con's of childrearing - in the emotional and the plebian cold logical sense concerning money in your old age, etc... So, essentially, should you have children if you could?
Having a child is totally selfish assuming one has that child as a newborn. It satisfies the parent's desires.
That does not make it right or wrong, that just sets it into a perspective.
Pros and cons? No idea. I have a 24 year old son whom I love dearly, and whose existence has cost me a fortune. The pros and cons depend only on your ability to build a relationship with the child. Build a bad one and it is all con. Build a good one and nothing else matters.
That is no different whether it is adopted, surrogate or "natural".
One vs two parents? That depends on you as the parent(s). Two bad parents are infinitely worse than one good one.
God parents? Generally a waste of space. Mine has a full set, none of which he has seen for about 14 years.
Have the child as a well formed older child? That is less selfish. But the same pros and cons apply.
[Updated on: Sun, 17 May 2009 10:11]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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There is always hope. It just might take a while.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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There is one thing that shines through in all the posts on this subject, and my other posts on other subjects as well - real love makes it all worth it in the end.
It seems that everyone agrees that as long as you really want a child and love it unconditionally through thick and thin, it seems to be worth it, despite all the little troubles it may cause. It also seems to bind together and help the growth of other relationships.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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OK, here are the rest of my answers. Whew, that was quite an assignment. But it was fun and it led me to think about some things.
“Third, does anyone think it a good idea or practical to attempt to raise a child without at least two permanent parental figures.”
I would not do this by choice. It has to be very difficult to go it alone.
“Fourth, is there a good set of curcumstances anyone can advise that would make it a better/worse time in their lives to decide to have children?”
It worked out well for me to have the child later in life. I had done a lot of stuff in the gay world, so I was ready to settle down. I had married and become close with my wife. I had become established n my job and financially secure. This made having a child less stressful and I had more time to enjoy it.
“is marriage/civil union/adoption/legal agreement of shared resources really necessary for a couple or group of people to raise a child?”
I don’t think so. What is needed is a personal commitment by the parent/parents. This commitment is based on the desire for the child and an honest appraisal of oneself to handle the awesome responsibility of raising a child. You have to understand the commitment you are making, and you have to want the child bad enough to take on the lifelong responsibility the commitment entails.
“how would anyone get kids”
Many of the usual ways have already been mentioned. But if I were living the gay life with a partner, I think I’d try to make a deal with a lesbian couple that I could easily get along with. I think it would be great for the two guys to donate the sperm and one of the ladies to an egg. The sperm would be mixed and used to fertilize the egg in vitro. The fertilized egg would be implanted into the lady who did not donate the egg. That way there would be 4 stakeholders in the child, like 4 parents. The fathers could figure out who was the biological father by a simple test if they ever desired to do so. One lady would be the biological mother and the other lady would have carried and gave birth, giving her a stake in the child’s creation. It might seem weird to some, but to me it sounds great. The kid would essentially have 2 fathers and 2 mothers. Hopefully selections were well made and the couples could be on friendly terms. The child could spend some time with the mothers and some time with the fathers.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Yes, I would see the logical thing to do would be to have a very stable environment before I ever decide to have children, less stressfull and more enjoyable.
Everyone seems to think that no legally recognised relationships are neccesary to raise a child in - only a very firm commitment. I teeter on this point. Certainly a firm commitment is always necessary with or without any piece of paper. Certainly a legal document wouldn't be absolutely neccessary, but I still think it would make things easier if some type of explicit agreement existed, just in case of troubles along the way, and provide a more stable environment for the child if problems popped up.
Your last paragraph about how to create and care for a child with three or four caregivers was an absolutely brilliant idea. It seems ideal. I wonder whether anyone has ever attempted to do it like that?
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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