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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I saw the subject caption on a comedy site, on a picture of Frodo and Sam Gangi hugging. Watching the 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy, I was captivated by the way in which male hobbits treated each other, with all of the hugging and verbal expressions of affection. It would be nice if males in western culture could treat each other like that. I think that the feeling is there sometimes, but the homophobic culture makes straight guys hide their affection for each other. I don't think women have to hide their affection for each other so much, because western society is only male homophobic. Face it, straight guys love to watch Lesbians in porno films. Maybe its just countries under the English Victorian influence though. Russian guys seem to hug and kiss. Greek guys dance with each other. French generals present medals to their heroes with a moist kiss on each cheek. So why don't guys express affection for each other normally, in the English speaking world?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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Macky, a question to answer your question.
Do you feel that a gay man exhibits his feminine side readily than a non gay man? I am currently trying to find an answer to the feminine aspect of being gay and why it is so evident to a multitude of society. I really didn't feel feminine but more masculine. But recently, I wondered why this was so for me. My nephew seems to be struggling with his gender identity at this time too, and I would like to discuss this with him but I don't really have a perspective of being feminine, of if he's feeling comfortable with his gender. I hug and kiss many gay people but don't do much hugging or kissing even with close relatives (wife and child are exceptions). I do envy all people capable of showing affection openly.
Raymundo
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Dear Raymundo,
I know you asked Macky but I'm intruiged. How do I find my feminine side?
I'm far from sure I have one and think it is wrong to suggest that being soft-hearted or loving is at all feminine. I can cook and clean without being feminine. I can look after children and be kind to people without being feminine. And, I suppose I can be a prick without being masculine too!
I wonder how much all this is to do with role models and the way gay men are portrayed on the television. Since I don't watch television it doesn't affect me and I can't say whether my surmise has any validity. What do you think?
The campest person I've ever known was straight. Most of the gay people I've known seem not in the least feminine to me.
Love,
Anthony
[Updated on: Sat, 13 June 2009 07:52] |
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I am all masculine and I love all things masculine. Although I enjoy and laugh at camp comedy (Julian and Sandy for instance) I don't feel comfortable with camp in real life. I don't really think I have a feminine side (apart from my nipples).
Hugs
Nigel
[Updated on: Sat, 27 June 2009 15:42]
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Wow Mundo,
That's quite a question. What is the feminine? Lemme see.
1. More concerned with personal appearance.
2. Not as concerned with the appearance of others as with things like humor, intelligence, and compassion.
3. More outward displays of affection.
4. More in search of permanence with one partner than with scratching an itch.
I'm sure books have been written on the subject, but these 4 jump out at me. Strangely, I think a young gay man displays some of these characteristics more readily, llike nr 1. And older gays display nrs 2 and 4 to a greater extent. I think that only the very most accomplished gays perfect nr 3. Of course guys very comfortable with their sexuality might do as well as a woman on all 4 points. Maybe being gay has little to do with displaying our feminine side. It has to do with being a well rounded person I guess. I would love to be able to say that I meet all 4 criteria above. But I am still striving for greater perfection in all 4 areas. Great thing to consider,that. Thanks!
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I don't think the sexes are that polorized Anthony. Women have testosterone and men have estrogen. If that chemistry does not point to us having elements of both sexes, I don't know what does. I think your ability to freely show love and compassion can be considered the feminine side of you. I think that it is very desirable for a guy to embrace his femine side. I don't think that I could like a guy much, if he were abysmmilly weak in his feminine side.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Nigel, I think that you are letting your apreciation of the male physical form cloud your appreciation for characteristics that are commonly viewed as predominantly feminine. Feminine is good and msaculine is good, but I feel the more we excel in the characteristics of both sexes, the more human and humane we are.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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Thank you for your response, acam. I have always been intrigued by the feminine aspect of being gay. Of course, it's not what defines being gay but femininity to me does have a role in being gay.
This too could be seen as a stereotypic view of gay. I try not to be such, but I guess, I could be seen as such.
Raymundo
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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My brother has called me the "metrosexual" family member. I didn't know what the word meant until I researched it. The qualities of the word seem to lead one to view a metrosexual as a male with some qualities which would be reserved for a feminine role. He doesn't actually consider me a metro, or gay, but understands that I have more or less a few aspect of a feminine side: household maintenance, cooking, a sensative nature, etc. So he can see those qualities in me, thus others can too. I do pride myself on keeping the house clean and taking care of our daughter. And I am quite masculine to boot.
Raymundo
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It is starting. But men are embarrassed to show affection because it is "not manly" to show emotion. This has nothing to do with gay or straight, it is the culture.
I can't argue that it is religion founded because it is different in different countries sharing the same basic religion.
In what was traditionally thought of as Europe it feels as if the further south you go the more male tenderness happens. But that is not quite right either. In Sicily, and only from my own observation, men cheek kiss one cheek and cheek kiss the other in a usual greeting, but cheek kiss the first and lip kiss the second in some form of deference to a higher "family" member. I think the right cheek is cheek kissed and the left is lip kissed, but only upwards.
In the USA and England the Man-hug exists where the participants must slap each other's back while hugging in order to show that this is not gay!
When Megaman and I met at Stansted and when we parted the hug was not a man-hug. It was full, emotional and no slapping happened. We received no strange glances. I think we both wondered what would have happened if we had kissed hello and goodbye.
Hugs and kisses are an etiquette minefield., though. England: family may cheek kiss, non relative close friends also often saying "mwwahh!" to emphasise it! One cheek only, right to right weird. Aged aunts with moustaches attempt lip to lip kisses. Yuck. England, of course, only sanctions a kiss between the sexes! France, Italy etc, two cheek kisses, no sound made, right cheek first. The Netherlands, three, starting with the right. No sound made.
Imagine the confusion at a Sicilian/Dutch wedding! I'm English. How many kisses do I give?
[Updated on: Sun, 14 June 2009 18:07]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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No back slapping happened! You and Mega are real hobbits! Interesting point that back slapping. Before I told my wife I was gay, she always complained about my back-slap hugs. I guess something did not seem right about them. After I told her, I no longer back slap hugged. None of this was conscious. It just happened. I wonder if back-slapping was my way of telling her that I was not really straight. Then after I made that clear to her, the need for back slaps disappeared. Hmmm. Anyway, its good to see you back posting, Timmy. The place was just not the same without you. Hope you had a wonderful time.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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What makes you think that your nephew might be gay, Mundo? I think that if a guy acts sorta effeminate that it is just because of his role models. I think that guys raised in an all female home have no other choice but to act a bit more effeminate because they lack a male role model. I have a nephew who I think is gay too. Because he once lived with a male "housemate"; because his only European vacation was to the city of Amsterdam; because he has never had a girlfriend and he is 30 something. But hey...it might just be a bunch of co-incidences.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Who suggested that to you, and why do you appear to espouse the view?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Hi Macky,
Like some of the others I don't see us as having a "masculine" or "feminine" side. Instead I believe we all have a "Human" side and that all traits are natural to both men and women. I believe that to portray certain traits as one or the other is to lock us into stereotypes which can carry some very negative connotations and create divisions where none should exist. Certainly I believe there are differences between men and women, but to define certain tendencies as representative of one or the other is not a useful way of looking at things. For example, I believe there is no reason a man cannot be perfectly "masculine" while at the same time being loving, caring, kind, emotional, etc. IMHO, a man who can exhibit what we typically think of as "feminine" traits, is far more "masculine" than one who can't.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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e,
But given what we know about the effects of body chemistry upon emotions, isn't it more reasonable to assume that a preponderance of say, estrogen, would elicit some feelings more strongly than others? For the most part I agree with you, as men and woman are perhaps 99% the same. But I think that modern science shows us that just as hormones affect secondary sexual characteristics, they affect emotions as well. There are always anomalies in every situation, but in general, I think that there are emotional differences between men and women.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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Macky, I can't say for certain but it's almost a hunch or a sense like you wrote that he is gay, along with bits of factual information from his mother and my wife. I haven't had a face to face talk with him. I just hope he's making good choices.
As far as the feminine/masculine dicotomy goes, I love to layer the aspects of who we as gay men are or can be: we are males, we are gay males, we are gay married males, we are gay single males, we are gay feminine males, etc etc. Pick and choose.
Raymundo
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Macky,
I'm not really saying there is no difference between men and women. There are plenty of differences. My point is that when we begin to assign gender to actions and emotions we begin to make it ok for one gender and not ok for the other. We begin to place limits on what we believe ourselves or other should think, feel, and do in order to project or protect our image. It results in negative stereotyping.
For example, a couple hours ago on my way home from work a radio station was accepting "requests for songs as dedications" to the father of the listeners for Father's Day (this Sunday in the States). A man requested the Abba song "Dancing Queen" and dedicated it to his father. Immediately, my wife and I began laughing and wondering whether the man's father was gay.
I'm not sure that is a great example of what I'm talking about. A man should be able to openly like such a song, but it does evoke feminine images and most men would not want to have the song dedicated to them.
While I do believe there are differences in the way men and women experience life, both sexes are equally capable of experiencing the same range of emotion and activity and shouldn't feel limited simply because they think something is masculine or feminine. While women may live towards one end of the spectrum of human experience more than men and men may tend towards the opposite end more than women, overlap should be encouraged, not discouraged.
Think good thoughts,
e
Think good thoughts,
e
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Yep, e, Viva la overlap. Guys that spurn their feminine sides are yucky. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I gear ya and I agree.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Oh dear. I'm obviously yucky.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Dear Nigel. You are sweet, not yucky. We obviously have different definitions of "feminine side". All people have all emotions. One particular emotion is not exclusive to either sex. Certain emotions, however, are generally more pronounced in women and others in men. You would agree that, generally speaking, women's and men's emotions do not work exactly the same, wouldn't you?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Hi Macky! I've never been called sweet before, sickly maybe. LOL I think I did achieve cool with one of my pupils before I retired. I think all I was saying in my previous post was: Be careful with generalisations. All generalisations are wrong - even this generalisation may be wrong.
Of course I'll agree that women's and men's emotions work in a different way, but I won't go any further as I am still trying to work the feminine gender out.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Agreed. Generalizations=labels. One size doesn't fit all. Ok. Now that we have that settled, tell me more about this pupil who put you in his "cool" category...I hope I'm not being obtuse.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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I don't know what to say. He was a one-off, an original and imaginative thinker. Intelligence goes without saying. I was very fond of him. No sexual attraction whatsoever there, but his elder brother was a qt to die for. Products of superb parents. One thing about him - you could have taught the most diabolical lesson ever, but as he left he would always say thank you, and it was genuine. I don't know whether he did that with other masters or not. Obviously a peer group leader, and for good. (Not sure that I like the term alpha male)
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Nigel, Your description of the boy sounds very fatherly. It's Father's Day here in the US, so it's most apropos. Since its so obvious that the boy admired you, it's safe to assume that even today there is a bit of you living in his personality. Kids pick up what they see as admirable traits in their elders. I think that's what we celebrate on father's day...the delight of having made a difference in the world.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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What's a 'qt Nigel. Sorry to be so ignorant.
Love,
Anthony
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Anthony, qt = cutie
Macky, recently someone said to me something which I think deep down I already knew, but had never verbalised or thought about. Unfortunately I think I am going to word this badly. Teachers have little success themselves; their success is the success they have helped their pupils to achieve. I'm content with that notion.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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But that is their major success. Be more than content with every instance you find of it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Same goes for children, Timmy.
Love,
Anthony
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Wednesday one of my ex-pupils is going to Buckingham Palace to collect an MBE from the Queen. I make absolutely no claims of earning it for him, but I did do a bit towards putting him in a position where he could earn it - and this is one MBE that has been earnt.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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The relationship between teacher and pupil can be a delightful one, Nigel, and it is very good to hear that you keep in touch so well that you know such things. My aunt Elvira, who taught French and Spanish at Dudley High School, told me that she couldn't go shopping on Saturday afternoon because she would be stopped for conversation by a dozen ex-pupils and would never get her shopping done. I was envious that she had such a good relationship with so many people. It was good to hear how much they liked her and how much she liked them. It's as I say in my signature, isn't it?
Love,
Anthony
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