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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I was doing some reading when I ran across this:
When I grow up, I want to be a little boy. — Joseph Heller, novelist.
So I think, 'If I had it to do over again, would I live that differently?'
I think I'm hopeless. I'm still the same little boy with the same hang-ups that I've always had. It seems as though decades of living have taught me nothing. Maybe I would jump on a couple guys that I let get away. Other than that, and making a few financial moves based on knowledge of the future, I think I would just live my life over again and end up being the same person I am. So why bother? Could any of you do better?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I would tell the boy I adored that I adored him and take the knocks that come.
My life would have had different disappointments, different highs different lows. I might or might not have been able to spend my life with him as I wanted then, but I would have known the answer with certainty.
I would reinvent myself as brave. It would come to be true because I would play the part.
The whole scenario would have to be present. I do not want to be 14 today. I want to be 14 then. And there are so many things that would be slightly different. The whole time period was weird, and only certain things could change, but I would know how to change them because I would, I hope, be wiser.
Let me be clear, though. The man as he is today does not attract me in any way except out of a curiosity. I would like to have had clear eyes to see the boy as he was then, and to see if he, then, was attractive, too. Having written the autobiography of my life then and using the clear light of today I truly doubt that he was.
But, if he was, then I woudl tell him, and to hell with the consequences.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Yes, you never told him you adored him. But in my opinion, for what it's worth, you did ask for permission to tell him that when you; 1) Asked him how often he wanked and he replied that he didn't. 2) Asked him to go on the bike trip and he asked who else was going. Whats more, when his brother tried to get you interested in his sister by saying "She looks just like John", it seems that not only he, but his siblings knew of your attraction to John. I think that his responses in these situations were telling you that your advances were not welcome. I think you said everything that was socially appropriate for you to say. But what do I know.
BTW, will you be publishing your autobiography?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I don't know if I could do better, but I would sure like to try. Like timmy I would prefer to be 14 again, then. But I would accept being 14 again now. The difference I would like to make would be to actually have the confidence that I somehow convinced everyone I had.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"The difference I would like to make would be to actually have the confidence that I somehow convinced everyone I had."
Do you actually have that confidence now? Have you had a sort of metamorphosis over the years, or are you, like me, basically the same person at the core?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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If I was 14 again:
1. I would enjoy the sights of the gym showers in middle school more and take notes of who looked cutest
2. I would listen to more jazz and the heck with rock and roll
3. I would have made or found more time or just hung out more often with my troubled friend
4. I would have taken the advice of my English teacher and study poetry in more depth
Raymundo
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I'm pretty much the same person. My self confidence runs about a mile wide and an inch deep. The slightest little setbacks have me plunging headfirst into self doubt.
Think good thoughts,
e
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Ahhh, the showers in middle school. I did enjoy those. My only regret there is that I wish I had gotten contacts in middle school instead of high school. Then I might have actually seen what I was looking at.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I will be sending it to mainstream publishers for consideration, yes.
With regard to other things, I think the answer is that we lived in a weird environment in odd and austere times. We were naive in the extreme. Homosexuality itself was unacceptable, and that also meant to me!
I "knew" and half knew many things, but there is nothing that beats certainty, is there?
The autobiography shows that there were many confusing signals. I think he simply loved being the centre of attention, but not the centre of passionate adoration.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Isn't it ironic,e?
Being 14 again sounds so good, yet it is impossible.
Becomming the person we want to be sounds so good, and it is totally possible.
If we were 14 again, but we have not become the people we want to be, then we would just do the same crap all over again.
If we remain our own ages, and make ourselves into the people we want to be, I suppose we would be quite happy indeed.
That means we have both the motivation and the power to be everything that we want to be, yet instead of making the changes that we desire in ourselves, we choose fantasy. I wonder why that is.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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aaaawwww..... instead of reply i clicked new post. I wonder if timmy can move it to this thread as a reply????
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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technically impossible. So repost it and get me to delete the old one
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Macky wrote:
> If we were 14 again, but we have not become the people we want to be, then we would just do the same crap all over again.
Why?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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You would have to be 14 again with the benefit of hindsight, otherwise it would be pointless and you would do the same things unless… you were shifted to a different time zone, but then you wouldn't be 14 a g a i n, would you?
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I am really not sure of the technical details of becoming 14 again Nigel. I just figure that if enough Americans want it enough to pay for it, the Chinese will figure out how to do it and will sell it to us so that they can buy more of our worthless U S bonds. I don't understand high finance real good neither.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"Homosexuality itself was unacceptable, and that also meant to me!"
What an inhumane society that made little boys feel that way about themselves.
Do you think that you will be tempted to send John an autographed hardback copy when the autobiography is published?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Mundo,
More jazz than rock? Why is that?
The shower room used to terrify me. I don't think that would change much if I went back with my present mind but was the same size I was back then,with the same classmates.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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My hypothesis is that if you have not radically changed as a person since you were 14, and you were put back in the same situation as a 14 year old, then your second go round will not produce anything radically different.
I think that this type of logic is helpful. You know, going back is impossible. You also know that wanting to go back is NOT impossible. So if you are in the position of wanting to go back, but can't, then how can you solve this conflict?
Obviously, since you can't satisfy the want, you should stop wanting it. This is done by considering why the want is undesirable or useless. Happily, in this situation, I can feel that going back would be pointless for me as it would be more pain than pleasure. End result, I'm happy being a busted down old man! Is that too Zen fer ya?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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And another thing about all of us who would like being 14 again, especially us older guys. If you get your testosterone tested, you will see that it is significantly decreased from what it was at 14. Now if you went back, would you be any more capable of handling the seething potion of hormones that caused your body to burn with desire? Gays are a small minority. Very few of the guys you were attracted to would be attracted to you. That would give you conflict. Are you any better at handling this kind of conflict now than when you were 14? Wouldn't adoring but not being able to touch be painful?
[Updated on: Tue, 16 June 2009 23:40]
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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He will receive an autographed first edition! I am sure he will throw it away.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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But I have changed substantially.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Betcha he reads it. People like reading about themselves. But you'll probably never know he read it. People don't like to admit they're vain.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I won't ask how you have changed, but I assume that you have become more the person that you always wanted to be. You are to be congratulated on that.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Very ironic, Macky. I once wrote a poem containing the line "And reality proves better than any dream" but I never quite believed it. Somehow, I think that if I did go back and start over from 14, that I would get to 50 and still wish I could go back and be 14 again. No matter what. For me, it's not so much the idea that my life would turn out to be better, but that it would turn out different.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"I was very shy then, and to a certain extend i still am, the difference now is i'm not afraid to show my own sense of style, and i'm not anti-social."
What was the basis of your shyness and anti-social attitude? For me it was always that I felt inadequate. And it probably had something to do with being gay and ashamed of it. What could I talk to other middle school boys about...sports?...sex? Obviously I couldn't discuss or joke about sex, because I didn't know anything about girls and wasn't interested and I didn't know how to approach any boy that I liked and I was afraid, ashamed and embarrassed to do so anyway. Sports was a washout...I had never played any sports with other boys. They knew the games. I never learned them, and that was embarrassing too. And I really never had any interest. As I grew older, the feelings of inadequacy spread to my opinion of my own intelligence, to my view of my personality, to the worth of my opinions, to everything. It made me constantly conscious of myself. I am a horrible public speaker because I can not connect with my audience...the only thing that I can think about is how they perceive me. I can't have a close friend for the same reason. I can not connect with people, because I can not get into their lives because I just dwell on how they perceive me. It's a pervasive self-consciousness now. I have made no headway since I was 14...or maybe I have made a little. When I came out to my wife, it changed our relationship. Its a real friendship now; we connect. Who knows, I have a couple of decades or so left...maybe I'll make more headway. So how did you do it? How did you change yourself?
So how did you overcome the shyness and anti-sociability?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Macky wrote:
> based on knowledge of the future
That's the key Macky. It would all work out the same unless you had some or all of the knowledge you have now. Otherwise you would be the same boy, with the same knowledge, in the same family and the same society. There would be no reason for things to work out differently.
Timmy says he'd let the boy he loved know, but he wouldn't unless he had the knowledge he has today.
And if you had the knowledge you have today, does everyone else also? Are you saying that you and your friends would be 14 in today's society? If I had the knowledge I do today when I was 14 I might do a lot of things differently but I'd still be impacted and limited by the society of then.
JimB
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I suppose, Macky, it is a question of learning who one really is and then a question of admitting it and maybe on the way one actually establishes for oneself who one really is.
I hope I'm not confusing myself.But I have lived about 45 years as a 'str8' man (although I've always been open with my wife and children) and for most of my life have been too ashamed of what I did in my twenties to admit it. But I've never been shy or antisocial.
In the last five or ten years I've ceased to feel the need to hide and, particularly on here have been able to be open enough to exorcise the demons - or at least I think so.
And I've come to realise that quite a lot of the people that know me are actually quite fond of me. It's actually a bit overwhelming.
Love,
Anthony
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No, JimB, as it's a fantasy it would only be you that knew how your life turned out last time and it would be up to you to modify your behaviour to change it.
Otherwise everything would be different. I really didn't wake up to the possibilities of sexual attraction until very late. I think it was after I left school. The chances are that in a repeated life where everyone knew how things turned out last time someone else would make a change before I would and I'd be out of control again.
Since I was so late, for most of my life it has been other people who propositioned me. I think until I got married I can't remember turning down an offer!
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Yes, It's such a pleasure to be able to let down your guard and just be yourself. I only just experienced that for the first time this March, when I came out to my wife. I think that it was this place that got me thinking about coming out to her. I always used to wonder why gays felt the need to come out. Now I can understand. The wife is the main one, but how much more good feelings did you get when you stopped caring who knew that you were gay? What kinds of problems did it cause? I think that if one commands the respect of age, people find it easier to accept. I still care much too much about what people think of me, I guess.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Yes, JimB, to go back with you current knowledge would be key. And yes, things would have to be different with that knowledge. Yet, I still don't think that I would be that much different if I had it to do over again. Just one of the things that I considered in determining that was my reaction to an invitation to my 40 year class reunion. I was bullied a lot in school. The thought of seeing those people again is repulsive to me, even to this day. I had a good cry and threw the invitation in the garbage. The hurt has never gone away and I would actually still be afraid to face those people because they would still bully me around, and I still wouldn't know how to deal with it. Logically, I can think that they might really be different people now, but I am not different, so it seems more likely to me that things would just pick up where they left off after graduation some 40 years ago.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Anthony is right. Is more about being comfortable with who you are and not being ashamed about it.
When i was 16, i also felt inadequate. I never fit in with a specific group of people, not even with my gay friends. Like you, finding that connection with people was a little hard, but it got better as i learned what qualities i was looking for in a person.
I didn't change much per se, i'm still shy. When i go out to the bars, i don't randomly start conversation with a stranger like some of my friends do. However, it doesn't mean when the opportunity comes i will shy away from talking to people. I do try to be sociable and it keeps getting easier as the years go by.
I'm work for a grocery store. I talk to strangers all day long. You can say this interaction with people has helped me not be afraid to talk to people. Last week, this guy came to the store and asked for help on how to cook fish. He told me he was in the city for a summer program (the guy is college) and he wanted to know about places to go party. We exchanged phone numbers and ever since then i've been his unofficial tour guide. Turns out we attended rival high schools in California and he is here with other people from California. Believe when i say, something like this would never had happened a few years ago.
At work, my coworkers know i'm gay. It is no big deal. I don't hide it, but at the same time i don't go around telling people i'm gay. if they want to know, they can ask me and it is no big deal to me
;-D
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Your modus operandi in the bars reminds me of myself a couple of decades ago.
Perception seems to be the most important influence on our lives, with self-perception being tantamount. I think I tend to look to others and how they perceive me, rather than project the image that is really me. It could be that self-perception should be an active projection of what one perceives himself to be, rather than a passive reaction to the way others seem to perceive you. I seem to have spent most of my life waiting for other people's reactions to give me an indication of who I am, rather than telling them who I am. I am such a wuss. But I never give up trying.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Just gained real self confidence and a sense of self worth. You should always ask.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I quite like hormones.
Never had any real problems with them back then, either.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I wonder. The book describes how I adored him. I suspect he'll trash it 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"Just gained real self confidence and a sense of self worth"
Any tips on how to gain the self-confidence?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Some dreams are visionary. Some dreams are escapism. Identifying the person I want to be and thinking up ways to achieve the change is a visionary dream. Wishing I was 14 again is escapism. Sometimes you need a vision. Sometimes you need to escape. But, yes, reality is the material of Carpe Diem. Too much escapism is just as bad as too much vision. The grunt work of reality is the main job. Its where we change ourselves and make a difference.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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I fell in love with jazz. My folks had lots of Duke Ellington and Gerry Mulligan and other jazz artists. Jazz was the first music I heard and felt easier on the ear. I didn't want to feel left out from all of my friends who liked the rock and roll stuff so I began to listen to it more. I never really fell in love with rock until later. But I'll always love jazz.
As far as the showers go, I wasn't really trying to see other guys naked for the thrill but it was totally natural that we did get naked to shower. But there was one guy who I absolutely gazed at. He was a skinny dark haired boy and he was an Anglo guy. I grew up in a Mexican-American town in Southern California and he was the first Anglo boy I saw naked. I wasn't thinking I'm gay or whatever but him being different in body just had me looking at him more often.
Raymundo
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Cameron
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 2008
Messages: 70
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I am glad to hear you are publishing your book. I know that your family has been very supportive of you. Are they also supportive about your book?
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Where the hormones, there moan I. (Anon)
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Re: If you could be 14 again... 
