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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I feel neither masculine nor feminine. I feel 100% me. I hate shopping, am lousy at housework, am physically stronger than most ladies, and cry at weepy movies, something that happened as soon as my son was born, never before.
I'm gay. Should I be "displaying a feminine side"? No-one knows I'm gay unless I tell them. Does that mean I'm masculine?
I'm a natural bottom. Does that display my feminine side? Would being a top make me masculine? Or is that just what I wish to do sexually?
I know how to mend a car. I can strip an engine down and it runs when I put it back together. Does that make me masculine? in WW2 many excellent mechanics were pretty young ladies. Are they now masculine, or does this mean I am feminine?
Is "our feminine side" something imposed on we queers by society back in the 1950s when we were all exhibits in a freak show, or is it real?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Yikes I'm with you on the 100% me part of that, otherwise I have no desire to conform to any preconceived box! 
[Updated on: Sat, 20 June 2009 13:18]
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Yes. Everyone has masculine and feminine characteristics. Its a matter of average intensity of particular emotions in male and female. Males tend to feel some things more intensely, females others. The more we can even out the intensity of our masculine and feminine emotions, the more we grow personally.
There certainly is a tendency for straight guys to disparage gays by imitating affective speech, limp wrists and such, but I am not talking about that. I am saying that 1) society perceives some emotions as fem and some as masculine. 2) This perception is based on average differing intensity of a given emotion for the 2 sexes, which is in turn based on brain chemistry. 3) Emotions should not be emphasized so much based on our sex as to affirm what we really feel, and who we really are.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Again I would disagree that there are masculine and feminine emotions. Both sexes experience the entire spectrum. I do agree that there are differences in the way these emotions are experienced, but I am still loathe to classify them as gender specific. Doing so results in negative and unproductive stereotypes.
For example, it is generally considered that men are more aggressive and more violent than women. However, recent studies of domestic and dating violence are beginning to show that women actually initiate as much if not more domestic violence than men. The stereotype that has resulted from decades of false perceptions has hindered research into the causes and treatments of domestic violence and has led to perceptions that all domestic violence is male to female and that female to male violence only occurs in self defence. It is a perception that is only beginning to be exposed as wrong. I believe this is because aggression has been identified as a masculine trait, but clearly, in domestic partnerships women possess this trait in at least equal amounts.
This is not to say that there aren't differences in the way domestic violence is committed and experienced by men and women. There most certainly are and they are profound. By far, more women are injured than men. Women are much more likely to use weapons and sneak attacks (such as when the man is asleep). Women are also more likely to commit violence in the presence of others, especially if they know the others will protect them from counter attacks. Men are more likely to feel shame, embarrassment, and humiliation especially if they don't fight back. Women are far more likely to report the violence to authorities. And men frequently don't even consider the violence committed against them to be abusive.
I simply mean to illustrate that identifying certain "traits" as masculine or feminine can lead to very negative consequences. Having a masculine side or a feminine side based on stereotypes and public perception can be a very bad thing.
Think good thoughts,
e
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I don't think I have, Timmy, but I'm not sure what a feminine side would be. I don't think it is 'real' in the sense that everyone has one.
Presumably if the theory is correct all women should have a masculine side. [Would that be the side without the tits?]
The question of 'top' and 'bottom' seems to me invidious. I've never been a 'bottom' but the only reason is happenstance. I'm almost sure I could be.
Perhaps there is a place on the web which has a go at distinguishing masculine and feminine sides. If there is I bet it is pure stereotype.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Society is unimportant to me in this, though. And, interestibgly, "society" cannot perceive anything. It is not a sentient being capable of perception.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Sorry. Since we are looking at the hypothetical situation where we exist outside of society, I would have to agree that personally I am capable of out-feeling or under-feeling anyone on any given emotion. It would be wonderful if everyone in the world considered everyone equal insofar as their capability of feeling any emotion to any degree.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Here are some sites that I've looked at while researching Autism...the differences in the male and female brain are mentioned in quite a few of them. I've included the pertinent info.
Male vs female brain
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4404682.stm
They point to evidence that males generally have greater early growth of certain brain regions, and less hemispheric connectivity than females….
There are also specific differences seen in certain areas of the brain.
The amygdala, which plays a key role in emotional responses, is abnormally large in toddlers with autism; again an exaggeration of the typical development of the male brain….
The researchers say evidence points to exposure to male hormones, such as testosterone, before birth affecting these brain development patterns.
http://www.thirdage.com/love-romance/the-male-vs-the-female-brain
Men's brains tend to perform tasks predominantly with the left-side, which is the logical/rational side of the brain. Women, on the other hand, use both sides of their brains because a woman's brain has a larger corpus callosum, which means women can transfer data between the right and left hemispheres faster than men. While this does not mean that women are more likely to be in their "right mind," it does illuminate why MEN tend to approach communication more often with a task-oriented "let's fix the problem" state of mind, while WOMEN tend to be more creative and aware of feelings in their communication style.
The other structural difference in men and women's brains is the limbic size, which controls bonding and nesting instincts. Females, on average, have larger deep limbic systems than males. This is why WOMEN tend to be more in touch with their feelings and are better able to express them than men. The larger deep limbic system also increases a WOMAN’S ability to connect and bond with others.
The downside of this is that women are more susceptible to depression, not only because of the larger limbic system, but also because they produce less serotonin than men. Although this could be a factor in the statistic that women attempt suicide three times more often than men, men are three times more likely to be successful at such an attempt. One reason is that men tend to choose more violent and lethal methods, but another reason is that their smaller, deep limbic system contributes to the fact that men are generally less connected to others compared to women.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200803/male-brain-vs-female-brain-i-why-do-men-try-figure-out-th-0
Research in evolutionary psychology and related fields has uncovered the distinct ways that men’s minds and women’s minds operate. Few have made greater contribution to the discovery of the “male brain” and the “female brain” than Simon Baron-Cohen of the University of Cambridge, Bernard Crespi of Simon Fraser University, and my esteemed LSE colleague Christopher Badcock. So what is the male brain? What is the female brain?
Related Articles
* Male brain vs. female brain II: What is an “extreme male brain”? What is an “extreme female brain”?
* I move...therefore I am
* Locked In
* Visions of victory
* Autism: What's Sex Got to do With It?
The male brain is characterized by systemizing tendencies (to use Baron-Cohen’s term) and mechanistic thinking (to use Crespi and Badcock’s term). “Systemizing” is the drive to analyze, explore, and construct a system. The systemizer intuitively figures out how things work, or extracts the underlying rules that govern the behavior of a system. The purpose of this is to understand and predict the system, or to invent a new one.
In contrast, the female brain is characterized by empathizing tendencies (to use Baron-Cohen’s term) or mentalistic thinking (to use Crespi and Badcock’s term). “Empathizing” is the drive to identify another person’s emotions and thoughts, and to respond to them with an appropriate emotion. Empathizing occurs when we feel an appropriate emotional reaction in response to the other person’s emotions. The purpose of this is to understand another person, to predict his or her behavior, and to connect or resonate with him or her emotionally.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Dear Macky, you worry me. I'm still full of doubts about the mental differences between the sexes because I suspect that the range of male characteristics overlaps the range of female characteristics and that there are a lot of people whose minds could be in a body of either sex.
Understand I'm not doubting what the people you quoted say. What I am doubting is whether the differences are reliable as a guide to the sex of the person.
If the differences were a reliable guide then it would be possible to devise a questionnaire which, if answered honestly, could reliably distinguish the sex of a person answering it. I don't think such a questionnaire has been devised and proved to work by blind testing. Please prove me wrong.
I am very suspicious about sentences like 'men's brains tend to perform tasks with the left-side' because I don't see how anyone can know what bit of my brain is performing (unless they have stuck electrodes in it to measure activity in different areas).
So I'm still a sceptic about people having masculine and feminine sides.
Sorry.
Love,
Anthony
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Hi Anthony,
Macky makes some valid points. I haven't read the research of the people he quotes, but I have read others and there is a good deal of support for his statements. BTW - they have done the electrode thing in the past, today they use MRI and other imaging techniques.
That aside, man and women are more similar than different and there is considerable overlap in their experience. When discussing the differences, it is important to remember that "on average" and not across the board. It is also important to know that while men and women process information differently, they frequently arrive at the same place and give the same response.
It is important to know and understand both the differences and similaritites between the sexes. But it is equally important to know and understand that classifying certain things as masculine or feminine based on these differences is what creates stereotypes and inequality.
My (planned) dissertation is based on these differences and how to equitalbly address them in a coed classroom to achieve equality in learning so that neither sex is given an advantage due to teaching styles or preferential treatment.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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One has to be careful to distinguish between characteristics of men and women and the supposed "masculine" and "feminine" sides.
That things are physically different is not disputed. But I dispute that I have a masculine side or a feminine side.
Interesting that Bhorat's brother is one of the paper authors.
[Updated on: Sun, 21 June 2009 21:13]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Anthony, I doubt that any such questionnaire could be devised. Each feeling can likely be considered to lie on a spectrum with male at one end and female at the other end. You'd likely have a normal bell curve with most people being in the hump near the mean. Most things seem to be distributed like that for some reason.
As for determining how they find out which part of the brain is being used, they are using fMRI a lot in researching Autism. Of course it is not super precise. That's why Teddy Kennedy had to stay awake during his brain surgery so they could readily tell tumor from brain tissue.
new technique called functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). This technique is still largely a research tool, but shows promise in helping to localize vital areas of the brain before surgery and is sometimes performed on patients at UW Medical Center. Although MRI scanners are usually used to look at anatomic structures such as tumors, fMRI measures brain activity, and "lights up" areas of the brain being used at a given time.
http://www.uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=2728
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Yes, Macky, I went to a demonstration during an APL conference (I think in Berlin in 2000) where they projected onto a large screen a picture of a rotating and nodding patient's head and then 'removed' the skin to reveal the muscles and one layer at a time removed other flesh until the skull was bare. Then they removed the skull and revealed the brain and worked their way down to the tumour. Finally they removed the brain completely and surveyed the skull from the inside. It was impressive.
I guess the new technique you described is even more impressive if it is able to show the parts of the brain that are responding to a particular stimulus or doing a particular task.
Are you able to tell me that they can tell from that whether their subject is male or female?
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I don't think they could on any given person, Anthony. My knowledge tends to be a mile wide and and inch deep. But I suppose that given the right set of questions they could make an educated guess. Then if they did a control test without fMRI against an fMRI test, on average the fMRI would be more accurate. But again, that is more my logic than fact. But it sounds so much better than "I don't know."
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It's well known that the brains are physically different. It;s well known that we can see areas of the brain "in use" by deploying special equipment.
What I am talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with the shape of various nodes and lobes.
I am incensed by the idea that, as a gay man, I must "display my feminine side" or "be in touch with my feminine side". This is a thing that there is no scientific proof for.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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But what's the harm if a group of people decide to dub a set of feelings masculine or feminine? I think that it's more of a semantic thing to facilitate discussion rather than a condemnation of any sort. Like Nigel said here in another post, it is largely a generalization. It's like the label "gay". It communicates a general idea. It's imprecise. Masculine/feminine sides are generally understood in common parlance. When someone tells me I have to get in touch with my feminine side, I understand that they feel that I am acting in an overly logical,impersonal, unempathetic manner. If that is not the way I wish to be perceived by them, I'll adjust my communication so as not to be so formal. Can you explain why a request like that would "incense" you? Perhaps someone has really pissed you off in the past by overusing this as more than a communication expedient.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The harm is not apparent to you. It is to me. That is the point. I am a man. I am me. I am not masculine or feminine. I am me. It incenses me. hard to explain better than that.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Macky wrote:
> But what's the harm if a group of people decide to dub a set of feelings [...] I think that it's more of a semantic thing to facilitate discussion rather than a condemnation of any sort.
So are terms like queer, homo, pouf, nancy boy, faggot.
I see harm in those. I grew up hating those. I grew up hating the idea that people might think I was less of a man because I happen to be homosexual.
I spent years being ashamed of wanting to be penetrated in case I was thought to be less of a man. The first time I ever admitted it to a friend online I cried tears of embarrassed shame until I learnt it was Ok.
So I object. I object very strongly indeed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"So are terms like queer, homo, pouf, nancy boy, faggot."
I disagree. These terms are different in that they are always derogatory and hurtful. They serve no other purpose. Speaking of one's feminine side sort of aggregates a group of feelings that would otherwise have to be spelled out to the detriment of the point one was trying to make.
Do you think that your objection to the use of the masculine/feminine emotion dichotomy is a personal idiosyncrasy, or something that most people feel? Perhaps I'm the idiosyncratic one here. I do not mind people referring to my feminine side. Even if a guy wants to camp it up and act like a lady, I think that's fine and it doesn't add or detract to his attractiveness for me. I think people should be allowed to be themselves.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I can not comment for most people.
I feel that this "feminine side" stuff is derogatory. The group of feelings that it aggregates is negative in my mind. I also find "masculine side" derogatory.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Some words to a Bob Marley song are applicable in a broader sense,” There should come a day when the color of a mans skin should be of no more consequence than the color of his eyes.”
This can be said for any number of things involving natural human character where it harms no one.
We are human first and foremost. These classifications by others do no more than to fragment and separate us, sadly out of fear mostly. On the other hand if someone wants to self identify, why not, more power to them!
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I agree with him/you.
Self identify all you wish, but never, not ever, dare to include me in your category unless I have self identified into it.
[For the benefit of those who do not always cope well with use of the second person, it is used, in this case, as a generic pronoun, and is thus impersonal.]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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