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http://www.imdb.com/news/ni0851451/
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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While I wouldn't have wished him harm, I will not grieve. He was a sick and twisted individual. While the music industry has suffered a great loss, humanity has not.
I will grieve more for the other two celebrities who had recently passed, Ed McMahon and Farrah Fawcett. They are a pair of outstanding examples of how humanity can shine through despite celebrity and popularity.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I don't think you can say that he was sick and twisted unless you have personal experience. He was certainly unusual in his personal habits, and surrounding himself with kids was abnormal. But he was also cleared of sexual abuse charges.
I never cared for his music, but am sad for his life, some of which was self inflicted, but the basis for which was created by the father and his rigorous (reported) scheme of punishments for bad rehearsals, and his rigorous work ethic for even the littlest of his kids. In many ways that was true slavery.
What I've always seen is a kid who never had a real childhood, trying desperately to use money to buy back that childhood and failing totally. He was a physically abused kid, and he appears to have tried, totally inappropriately, to show love and kindness to other kids just because he never had any.
I'm sorry for him and the circumstances that created him. But I see him as disturbed through no real fault of his own, not as sick and twisted.
Of course the press will now become full of "Wacko Jacko touched my pee pee" stories because one cannot libel the dead, and we'll never know the total truth anyway. But I'm going with the court case that cleared him.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Timmy,
That was a beautiful post. It says all the things that I was about to say about Michael. I have nothing to add. I was just happy to see someone tell it like I felt it.
He was an odd man for sure. But if he had ever abused a child, the two trials
for abuse certainly would have found out about it. His name was dragged through
the mud for no other reason than that he was odd. I feel that the public torment was the cause of his losing his fortune and ultimately his life. He was not treated justly, and I feel bad for him.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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I'm normally pretty unmoved by the death of celebrities, but this was a bit of an exception for me: it came as a genuine shock, and I was shocked that I was shocked by it.
In my late teens and very early 20s, I had rather a crush on MJ. Unusual (perhaps unique) for me, in that he was about four years younger than me. That makes him very unlike the others I had crushes on ... and his death has come as a reminder of mortality in a way that the death of other, older, stars did not.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think all one can really say is that he was very probably sad, lonely, and unloved, at least in his own heart. The adulation of fans is no substitute for a single, warm. loving embrace, freely given and accepted.
I've met enough abused boys to start to have an insight into some of the things he may have been going through. His behaviour was normal for an abused person trying to regain what they were denied.
So my heart went out to him though I never enjoyed his talent.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Cameron
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 2008
Messages: 70
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I totally agree with your post e. He was not convicted because the 'jury' found him not guilty. It doesn't mean he did not commit the crimes he was accused of. He paid off several victims and witnesses. That tends to distort the outcomes.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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What you state as a fact is, in fact, your opinion. You have absolutely no knowledge of any facts to back your accusation up.
Baseless accusations and character assassinations are absolutely not what this board is about.
In the civilised world one is innocent until proven guilty. He was tried and found to be not guilty by a jury of his peers. If you have complaints about this then it is the legal system under which he was tried that you need to complain about.
If he were still alive your post would be libel.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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OJ Simpson and a slew of other celebrities and wealthy persons have bought not guilty verdicts via high priced attornies. But that doesn't mean they didn't commit the crimes. I'll agree his life was a sad one, though.
Opposite from you, I did and still do, enjoy much of his music. My favorite radio station here in LA has been playing his music more or less non-stop since yesterday and says it will continue through the weekend. I've really enjoyed hearing it as I haven't heard some of the songs in 30-40 years.
But I won't excuse, condone, or mourn him.
Think good thoughts,
e
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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Many of my students listen to his music and that's how I was introduced to him. I guess he being close to my age I sort of felt a chill upon hearing of his death. I will always have the impression of him just trying to be sort of a transperson.
Raymundo
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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That is what a lawyer is for. You hire the lawyer to represent you to seek to achieve the verdict that you want.
The court has the job of trying the case. The judge and jury determine guilt, not an opinion poll, and certainly not the lawyer that you hire.
Whatever your opinion says he was acquitted and hasn't a stain on his character over these charges.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Cameron
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 2008
Messages: 70
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I'm not going to get into a war over this. It's your forum, timmy, and obviously what you think does and should matter most. I will just agree to disagree. I believe that money does tip the scales of justice, it is not blind as it should be. Ask any black person if they think they get the same "justice" that a white person receives. The same is true with rich and poor. It's not an accident that the majority of the prison population is poor and black. A good expensive lawyer can usually get you off. An ugly fact of life in the USA.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Then change the system. It works the way it works. Make it a fairer system by working to change it. But he who has been acquitted is innocent of all charges. That is a guiding principle.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Cameron said
"It's your forum, timmy, and obviously what you think does and should matter most."
Timmy, how do you feel about this statement?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Ambivalent.
If my opinion is valid then it should carry full weight. If invalid then no weight at all. In between is in between.
I only impose my will when there is a serious breach of etiquette. Otherwise I have opinions, often strongly held. My will is not my opinion. My opinion is not my will.
I support changing the status quo by working within its rules in order to change it. I am not a revolutionary.
Clear as mud?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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It's just that sometimes, you express your opinion so forcefully that I think feelings are hurt. I know that has happened in a few of your exchanges with me. I understand your "high expectations" tenet as a way to draw people to what you believe is correct. It's like helping people accomplish something by believing in them. I'm convinced that can have a powerful effect.
I'm probably just the opposite. I care too much about hurting people's feelings....probably to the point to where I do not do them the service of high expectations.
Like everything else, I suppose that a person needs to be cognizant of both 1) the duty to believe in folks and expect better from them and 2) the obligation to empathize and be gentle with other people's feelings.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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"But he who has been acquitted is innocent of all charges. That is a guiding principle."
Not true. I can't speak for the system in England, but here in the States a verdict can be "guilty" or "not guilty" and "not guilty" does not mean "innocent." An "acquittal" simply means there is no criminal conviction and that there is "reasonable doubt" that a crime had been committed.
Criminal trials in the US are not as much about the facts as they are about they way those facts are presented and which facts will be allowed to be presented. High powered attornies can spend the money to distort and mis-represent facts until those facts become meaningless. They hire "expert witnesses" to say what they want them to say and investigators to gather false evidence and create suspcisions or to discredit or intimidate witnesses. The "Criminal Justice System" is a misnomer. It has nothing to do with "justice."
Michael Jackson has no criminal convictions. This does not mean that he did not commit the acts.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I can always have my mind changed with enough facts to counter my opinions.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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But the jury of peers, who spent a lot of serious time considering, aquitted him. Out of respect for the jury, I do not think that we can prefer our judgment to theirs, when they were privy to all the facts.
Yes, Michael may have molested children. But the jury was obviously more concerned with punishing an innocent man, than punishing a guilty one. I think Michael showed poor judgment, as a public figure, in his actions with children. I think he was childlike himself, maybe even naive. But I just can't believe that he ever hurt a child. I guess I'll be reading the biography that's coming out. I would suppose that there is a movie here too, that has producers salivating.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The verdict "not guilty" means just that. NOT guilty. It does not mean "not proven" available in Scottish law, it means not guilty
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I once had a business associate who, along with her 2nd husband, murdered her mother. Several years earlier, she had taken a handgun and shot and killed her first husband as he slept. The jury found her "not guilty" of the crime of murder for killing her first husband. This did not mean that she did not kill him, only that a jury did not condsider it to be a crime. Fortunately, the second jury did find her guilty of committing first degree murder in the case of killing her mother and she is now doing 25 to life.
I did not know of the first crime when I knew her. I only knew that her husband had died and that she had remarried. I followed her 2nd trial quite closely as I was very good friends with her 2nd husband. I was amazed at what I found out about the first trial. A considerable amount of evidence was excluded in that trial including a confession the judge said was illegally obtained. The jury never got to hear about her confession or see other pieces of evidence that were excluded. What they did get to hear were her allegations that her husband had molested their daughters. This despite the fact that she was the only witness to the molestation. There had been no police reports, no reports to children's services, no medical evidence that the molestation ever took place. Even the 2 girls who were both toddlers could not testify to it. But the jury believed it and allowed her to go free.
BTW the confession included no statement claiming that her husband had molested her daughters. The subject did not come up until trial. Other excluded evidence supported a possible motive other than what she claimed - money. Her husband had a hefty life insurance policy and they were very much in debt.
Also the prosecution was not allowed to mention the first trial in the second trial because she had been acquitted. Though the first case was used during sentencing to argue for a longer jail term.
I mention this to illustrate how a jury can be mislead when they are only presented with some of the evidence, not all of it.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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What you are talking about is a badly run prosecution, not your criminal justice system.
The system of being innocent until proven guilty is to protect innocent people from being locked up, especially to protect them from execution. Some people will fool the courts. Not many. The higher the profile the less likely this is.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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... with his death, Michael Jackson's family would have chosen to close ranks, and quietly bury their son, and brother, with as much dignity, compassion as they could muster, and with absolutely no fanfare, pomp, nor circumstance; but, alas that was not to be.
I didn't like the "public-face" of the boy, nor the man that he became. I didn't like the controversy that followed him, nor the example of excesses that have become the norm within the entertainment industry, that he set, and fostered, for far too many generations yet to come.
I truly did and DO LIKE his music, and WILL CONTINUE to do so. I will mourn for the loss of THAT TALENT, but, never, ever, for the man; nor should anyone else.
Timmy is right in asserting the courts have ruled on Michael's behaviour, and that should be good enough; and I agree ... to a point; and that being a point I'll not likely ever share with anyone.
Timmy is also right in asserting that every "Wacho Jacko" story worth its' salt is now going to surface; and like all of their predecessors, I'll continue to ignore them as each, and every, new tantalizing little tid-bit is flailed for all its' worth in the media. I have done so all this past week. I'm likely the only person on the planet who didn't have, and hasn't had, nor will likely ever have, the television on for neither his funeral, nor on for each new "Michael" story on e-Now, e-Weekly, Entertainment Tonight, or a plethora of similar, and oftentimes mud-raking, media services.
What I do know, is that with Michael's death, the "None-disclosure Clauses" and Statue of Limitations on all of the many out-of-court settlements will have now lapsed, and God help us, there will now be a flood-gate opening of everything that really went on, in each and every one of those court cases Timmy mentioned, and that is really the saddest legacy he could have left his children, and his family.
Michael's family were wrong to make a martyr of Michael; to have elevated him in the eyes of the media world, as something akin to a Saint, or even dare I say it, a God; and likely will now have to pay the price of that error, through widespread scrutiny of those court documents and the revelations they may provide. Perhaps, but only just perhaps, had they done what was right, and let him (and the stories about him) quietly fade away, maybe, just maybe, so too would have the media feeding frenzy that is now going to ensue.
What were they thinking of, his family. Why could they not simply let he, the tortured and tormented man, die, and let only the legacy of his music prevail.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
[Updated on: Thu, 09 July 2009 05:35]
"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
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Re: Michael Jackson.....dead at 50 
