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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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This was a question that Neil asked me over lunch. I find it a very hard question to answer. I went down the "usual" road of "When you grew up you knew with all certainty that you were heterosexual, knew that you expected to have sex with girls and knew it would be what you wanted."
He surprised me a little by telling me that he never really ever knew what sex was going to be like, though he did, sort of, assume it was always going to happen and be somewhat better than his right hand. And he said that there is no way he, for example, would have been able to say that he were heterosexual unless he had tried it out and found it to be excellent.
Now I grew up confidently expecting to have sex with girls and to be heterosexual. I had sex with girls. It was not unpleasant. It was fairly fulfilling. I assumed that I was a "heterosexual person who liked my fellow teenage boys too." And that assumption continued until my late forties when I realised that I was a homosexual person who happened to be married to a lovely lady.
But it does come back to that question, one I find hard to answer: "How do you know that you are gay?"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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By noticing who it is when my eye is taken by someone, Timmy. By noticing what sort of pictures from the web I think worth saving. By the frisson I feel when talking to certain people. By remembering, with pleasure and affection, the men I had sex with and wishing it had been possible to do more/go further.
Simply because I am sexually attracted to male a lot more than female.
It's not a question of what you do; it's what else you would like to do. Otherwise a virgin would have no sexuality (and afaik I've never encountered anyone with no sexual desires).
At least, I think so.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy wrote:
> But it does come back to that question, one I find hard to answer: "How do you know that you are gay?"
I don't actually think that's a real question. It seems to me there are two issues getting confused here:
how do I know myself and what I am (attracted to) ?
do I want to / think it appropriate to apply the label "gay" to that ?
So, in my own case, it became clear during my teens and early 20s that I was finding something missing when I had sex with women. That I never masturbated thinking about women - it was always men. That the attraction that I felt towards women was only in my head/emotions, but the attraction I felt towards men was both head/emotion and groin/lusts.
Oh, I *can* (or could - it's been many years since I last did) have sex with a woman and enjoy it. By some definitions that makes me "bisexual" and, indeed, for some years that was a label I was happy to apply to myself. But I grew increasingly uncomfortable about that, and 30 years ago adopted the label "gay", which almost instantly turned into "out gay man".
In a society like ours, where between a quarter and a third of all post-pubescent males have had some same-sex experience leading to orgasm, I increasingly feel that simple labels like "gay", "straight" have little meaning, and so the question Timmy posed has little or no meaning.
I find it helpful to think in terms of scales first-and-foremost (for example, the Klein grid http://members.tde.com/ben/kleingrid.html ), and only then to think what label I might use about myself in what context or area of discussion.
Sorry - complex answer to a deceptively simply question.
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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How can you ever really know anything? I think my earliest realization that I was gay came to me in a wet dream. No....in many wet dreams. And the dreams were always dreams about other boys. Now would a heterosexual ever have dreams like that? Wouldn't a bi-sexual have had at least a single dream about females?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I responded to this question a little in your post on wet dreams. I apply both labels, gay and bi to myself.
I am attracted to some women. I have enjoyed sex with a couple of them. The late Farrah Fawcett was one of my favorite female fantasies while in my late teens. There was a girl in middle school that I wanted more as much or more than any guy, though I didn't have the courage to approach her. And I am married. That is the case for being bi.
On the other hand, I can't ever remember having a hetero wet dream. 90% of my masturbation fantasies that include females also include males that I am more attracted to. But more than half of my fantasies include only males. I rarely look at female porn. Though I have never had gay sex, I fantasize about it constantly. I am attracted to way more men and have become less and less attracted to women as I get older. That's the case for being gay.
How do I know? I just look at the evidence.
Think good thoughts,
e
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 430
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I'm a bit of a dummy. I am gay but hardly knew about it. I didn't wind up with my dear boyfriend. But I did marry and we both share our life with our daughter. I find the male form wonderful yet I can say that also with the female form. I think knowing I am gay has not been easy and it would seem that the question begs for an easy response. Answering that question lead me to this site. Maybe I got hit in the head too many times playing football. I am gay but what is gay? An erection? A bubble butt? A fluttery belly feeling? A knowing when I see a gay male?
Then, I know I'm gay.
Raymundo
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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"What is gay?"
I look at it as a fairly straight forward thing. It is a sexual preference or orientation. I think a person is gay if he prefers same-sex sex. But a preference does not mean that is what you will always do. It also does not mean that you will have that same preference all the time. I think this is how many of us ended up married. We either preferred women at the time we married and later our tastes changed, or we simply did something that contradicted our preferences.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Oh wow, e. You've never had sex with a guy? Before I got married, all my considerable sexual exploits were with guys. My wife is the only woman I've ever had sex with. How does your wife feel about your feelings towards men? Could she handle the thought of you being with a guy? Mine is OK with the way I feel, but her personal needs require me to live up to my marriage vows and not mess around with guys. Keeping those marriage vows is easy because it is a labor of love. But some wives don't seem to be bothered by the idea of the husband having a boyfriend though. I know a few people like that. I think that things like that are between the husband and wife.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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