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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Hey, I didn't say it. It's all here in the newspaper's review of another book. BTW, my opinion of the younger members on this site tends to tell me that the lady who wrote the book needs to do some more research. Our boys here are geniuses!
Macky
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703740004574513890645608558.html
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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This could open a can of worms. Boys in th UK are not getting more stupid, but many are less well educated than their predecessors.
The exam system is tilted in favour of girls - lots of coursework, little final testing, which does not suit boys and plays down competitiveness which boys thrive on. Mixed classes do not help in this respect, either.
Did you notice in our days at college (uni) the girls wrote down every word the lecturers said and the boys would jot down an occasional note? Yet when it came to finals the results were pretty even.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"Boys in th UK are not getting more stupid, but many are less well educated than their predecessors."
In what ways is the modern UK boy less well educated?
I think that part of the problem with USA boys is their rebellion against their parents. They choose manual labor over desk jobs, because their parents had desk jobs. I'm sure that they could do well college, but see the life they want and know that the career can be learned in months rather than years, and often professional manual laborers make as much or more than their college educated peers.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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From the United States Department of Education:
Enrollment in degree-granting institutions increased by 14 percent between 1987 and 1997. Between 1997 and 2007, enrollment increased at a faster rate (26 percent), from 14.5 million to 18.2 million. Much of the growth between 1997 and 2007 was in full-time enrollment; the number of full-time students rose 34 percent, while the number of part-time students rose 15 percent.
During the same time period, the number of females rose 29 percent, compared to an increase of 22 percent in the number of males. Enrollment increases can be affected both by population growth and by rising rates of enrollment. Between 1997 and 2007, the number of 18- to 24-year-olds increased from 25.5 million to 29.5 million, an increase of 16 percent, and the percentage of 18- to 24-year-olds enrolled in college remained relatively stable (37 percent in 1997 and 39 percent in 2007). In addition to the enrollment in accredited 2-year colleges, 4-year colleges, and universities, about 447,000 students attended non-degree-granting, Title IV eligible1, postsecondary institutions in fall 2006.
The number of young students has been growing more rapidly than the number of older students, but this pattern is expected to shift. Between 1995 and 2006, the enrollment of students under age 25 increased by 33 percent. Enrollment of people 25 and over rose by 13 percent during the same period. From 2006 to 2017, NCES projects a rise of 10 percent in enrollments of people under 25, and a rise of 19 percent in enrollments of people 25 and over.
Enrollment trends have differed at the undergraduate, graduate, and first-professional levels. Undergraduate enrollment generally increased during the 1970s, but dipped from 10.8 million to 10.6 million between 1983 and 1985. From 1985 to 1992, undergraduate enrollment increased each year, rising 18 percent before declining 2 percent and stabilizing between 1993 and 1996. Undergraduate enrollment rose 25 percent between 1997 and 2007. Graduate enrollment had been steady at about 1.3 million in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but rose about 67 percent between 1985 and 2007. After rising 60 percent between 1970 and 1980, enrollment in first-professional programs stabilized in the 1980s. First-professional enrollment began rising again in the 1990s and showed an increase of 18 percent between 1997 and 2007.
Since 1984, the number of females in graduate schools has exceeded the number of males. Between 1997 and 2007, the number of male full-time graduate students increased by 32 percent, compared to a 63 percent increase for female graduate students. Among part-time graduate students, the number of males increased by 10 percent and the number of females increased by 23 percent.
The percentage of American college students who are minorities has been increasing. In 1976, 15 percent were minorities, compared with 32 percent in 2007. Much of the change from 1976 to 2007 can be attributed to rising numbers of Hispanic and Asian or Pacific Islander students. During that time period, the percentage of Asian or Pacific Islander students rose from 2 percent to 7 percent and the Hispanic percentage rose from 4 percent to 11 percent. The percentage of Black students was 9 percent at the beginning of the time period and it fluctuated during the early part of the period before rising to 13 percent in 2007. Nonresident aliens for whom race/ethnicity is not reported made up 3 percent of the total enrollment in 2007.
1 Title IV programs, which are administered by the U.S. Department of Education, provide financial aid to postsecondary students.
SOURCE: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2009). Digest of Education Statistics, 2008 (NCES 2009-020), Chapter 3.
"professional manual laborers make as much or more than their college educated peers." In light of the current recession and the unemployment figures released by the U. S. Department of Labor, with unemployment at nearly 10 % with and adjusted figure of 17%, that statement is not true.
Research is showing that nearly 45% of the unemployed persons are enrolling in Community or Business Colleges for the express purpose of retraining in a professional filed such as Nursing, IT work, and other careers that require college training & degrees.
The Department of Education also released a report that shows that overall there are increases in enrollment in Community Colleges, State Universities, and Private institutions of higher education in the United States not less. The Community College system having the largest increases in enrollment.
Then, the IT & the Internet must be taken into consideration as an overwhelming majority of U. S. adolescents have skill sets in technology based professions at much earlier ages than their parents or in some cases, older siblings. [In particular with males.]
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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You picked the wrong word for your post Macky. Stupid=lacking normal intelligence or understanding, slow-witted, dull. Nigel picked the correct expression in “less well educated”. Stupid is a negative and offensive term when applied to people; and one you should refrain from using unless you intend to offend someone.
Most of the public school systems in the US are doing a miserable job of educating our young people, especially the boys. Some of the fault lies in the homes of these kids where their parents do not install in them a good set of values. Also, too many parents are more concerned about their careers than properly raising their children so the job gets shifted to the schools and replaces valuable time needed to provide a good education.
JimB
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I echo JimB's distinction between stupidity and education. And I agree with Nigel that the problem lies in education.
It seems to me that in most developed countries the modern education system encounters several acute problems:
* In my country the salary that a high school teacher can expect is insulting. Maybe that is why the profession does not attract those most qualified to offer a good education to their students.
* The multifarious rules and regulations that govern what a teacher and/or administration may or may not do make the maintenance of suitable discipline something that is near to impossible. Add to that the general air of "the excitement of violence" and "do your thing" that pervades the media and the problem is increased many fold.
* Comprehensive education offers many social blessings. In my opinion they are more or less cancelled out by the loss in the standard of education that all students - whatever their learning potential - actually receive.
Just my twopennyworth.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Macky asked:
>In what ways is the modern UK boy less well educated?<
The examinations are less demanding and so the successful ones pass at a lower standard. Under our socialist government it is a caucas race - everyone must have a prize - but even that doesn't work.
An increasing number of boys are leaving school at 16 illiterate and innumerate.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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I'd certainly support JFR's points 1 & 2, and with reservations support 3.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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So it looks like university enrollment is a many faceted variable. One can whip up a batch of statistics to support anything, it would seem, depending on which stats one selects..I wonder if this economy has somehbow affected the number of males in hihger ed.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Why are more boys dropping out of school at 16? What is the incentive to do this?
And I have dubious feelings about examinations. In my mind examinations that proove that the student knows how to apply concepts is the highest quality. These examinations often require essay questions. They are more difficult to grade and more time consuming. Perhaps they are no longer used as much, because of the time/expense factor. Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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"One can whip up a batch of statistics to support anything..." This is not about whipping up a bunch of stats. Merely an addition of more data that supports the suppositions made in the Wall Street Journal piece.
Nigel, JimB, JFR, are correct in terms of an overall view of educational short-comings. Data bears this out in the United States as in numerous instances the College Boards, aka SAT test results, have had a marked decrease in scoring over the past decade in a sampling by administrators specifically looking at data collected re: males.
The failure is within the systems themselves, [schools] across the country as adherence to basic programs and methods that encourage boys to increase their skills in the maths & sciences has sharply fallen off. Additionally, there have been concerns expressed that there has been too much emphasis placed on sports vs. classroom achievements.
Finally, at least within the United States in study after study, there has been alarming numbers of minority boys that fail to even achieve basic standards in maths, sciences, and languages. The so-called "No Child Left Behind" federal program and mandate has proven to be ineffective at best.
[Updated on: Sun, 08 November 2009 13:12] |
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Stupider was an incorrect word. Its 'more stupid' anyway I think. Anyway, to me the article seemed to be saying boys are stupid, and just I carried that sentiment over to my post to be clear in my description of the article.
But many learned pepole educated themselves with no parental help. If fewer boys are in higher ed it must be due to a lack of incentive, not due to lack of parental support. Here's a bothersome question. Do you think that modern societies social support network removes incentive for people to get ahead, and thus contributes to a diminished interest in education?
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Educators make good money where I live, but it doesn't seem to help.
Maybe it has to do with the way educators are taught.
There are teachers who love their subject and get thrilled by making kids understand why they are excited. Maybe teachers need to be tested on their love and excitement re their subject. Its a joy to watch a teacher like that in action. The person is so interesting that learning happens as a byproduct of enjoyable social interaction.
All the extra rules and regs in education seem to be reqiured to afford equal opportunities to the handucapped, the socially disadvantaged and other minorities. For instance, if gay children are to have an equal opportunity, they must be accepted and respected just like everyone else. Sometimes you just have to make a rule to assure this happens. Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I guess the question then is what is making educational systems worldwide, do a poorer job? JFR said rules among other resaons. I suggested that our broader modern social nets remove negative incentives to get ahead. What do you think is the one most pernicious factor in our society that is causing our educational system to fail? To me it seems that somehow an incentive has been lost that used to make students eager to pursue learning. Could it be computers. Much has been said of their benefits, but could they be bad in summation?
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky wrote:
JFR said rules among other resaons.
Macky, it's not the rules in themselves; it's the fact that the multifarious rules - together with other factors - make the imposition of a learning discipline very problematic.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I did not think I was going to post here, but here I am.
In the United States as far as Education goes, what is harped on us is the standardized test, all the testing forms and pressure and BS all the school's care about is getting good marks on the tests so they get more funding which goes to their salaries anyway.
The American Education system exists not to serve the administration and crappy teachers, who frankly do not give a damn about the kids anyway and please do not attack my post as just paranoid ramblings. I currently live through the system and experience it. Most of you posting here have not been in that type of school setting I would estimate in about 30 years or so.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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I think that learning discipline is more of a symptom of the problem than a cause. I'm still, admittedly, sort of nebulous on it, but it seems to me that modern educational problems have to do with misapplied incentive.
I don't know about Israel, but here in USA, being bright and hard working in school seems to be something that these students have to hide. Somehow, there's an incentive to deprecate these people among the rank and file. Instead of receiving these hard working bright students as models to be looked up to, they are normally derided because of their efforts.
If peers would be attracted to a person's work effort like they were attracted to personality or looks, the incentive picture in schools would be turned on its head. Social status could be achieved through effort, and more students would put forth more of an effort.
"Students look down on "brains", because they have a poor academic image of themselves, I suppose. Why do they have that self image? Why can't they become enamored of a studious student's efforts and feel encouraged to be like them? It seems as though courageous student leaders need to be esteemed and emulated in schools. Perhaps there are no leaders among the studious?
All that I know is that the incentives have to be totally messed up. Get the incentives there, and I think you solve the entire problem of declining educational standards.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"all the school's care about is getting good marks on the tests so they get more funding which goes to their salaries anyway."
So you are saying that the teacher's incentive is to make as much money as possible. In the old days, the teachers used to get a non-monetary reward of sharing knowledge with the kids. It could be that in trying to incentivize teachers to do better, we have moved the incentive away from the student towards monetary reward.
That is why you end up with so many teachers that don't give a damn about the kids. I experienced some of that 40 years ago, but I also experienced excited, animated teachers too. Teachers that loved being with the kids. Teachers who actually enjoyed their time in the classroom. Now why did they enjoy it? Teachers were paid shit back in my high school days. I guess the money-grubbers went elsewhere and the folks who loved the work stayed on.
I also sometimes think that part of the burden of teaching should fall on the students. Back in the days of the one room schoolhouse (before my time, but my older brother attended one) the 5th graders would teach the first graders how to add. Who learned the most in such a set up, the first graders or the fifth graders? Why don't schools incentivize student mentors, with both honors, credit towards graduation, and money. Wouldn't everyone look up to the mentors, the mentored the teachers and administrators and even peers? Wouldn't everyone want to be one and to excel at it? Wouldn't the mentoring process teach valuable lessons in responsibility, understanding differences, proper social interaction, etc?
Or would the money-grubbing switch from the teachers to the students under such a system of incentives?
Whatever the problem I think that;
1. It is an incentives problem.
2. It is the most important problem for any country to solve, because India is already pulling ahead academically and taKING JOBS VIA INTERNET, and the many people in Africa and Asia see that as a way of being a first world country too. Smarts flows equally over the world when you have an internet marketplace. And if your country don't have smarts, you get left out. The smart Africans will be driving the Corvettes of the future, unles we keep up.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Why do we have to make excuses for those that fail? It's not because you are lazy, demotivated, smashed out of your head on alcohol or drugs, but because you are gay, poor (weren't most of us?), handicapped or because the rocking-horse kicked you in the nursery. The first thing we need is to instil taking responsibility for oneself and the second is to stop providing excuses, particularly for others.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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(With the caveat 'in the UK') whatever one's reasons are for going into teaching, becoming wealthy is not one of them.
If there are any highly paid jobs in the teaching profession they are in administration, not for people who labour at the chalkface. Those of us who taught did it for the love of our subject(s) and for the love of the pupils whom we served. We wouldn't have survived otherwise.
I spent 19 years being educated and 30 years on the other side of the teacher's desk. I feel that grants me a little authority in what I say, albeit 12 years out of date.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Jordan? There are a couple of things you need to consider. As you are still in the system as a secondary student, your perspective is given from the viewpoint of where you are, right now, at this moment.
I am the parent of a college student only a a couple of years older than you. I also am blessed to live in the Washington Area which has two of the finest school systems in the nation. The Montgomery County, Maryland Public Schools where my son attended and directly across the river, the Fairfax County, Virginia Public Schools. Where, there is one of the foremost advanced placement collegiate level preparatory High Schools in the nation, The Thomas Jefferson School for Science & Technology, is located.
Now, unfortunately, the District itself is not so blessed and has one of the worst performing school systems in the country.
Your statement about the money is misleading, greatly. The problem is money for schools overall. By the way, if one expects to hire the very best, one should pay well, yes? I have news for you Jordan, that's not how it works. A vast majority of the schools that are not performing well have bloated admin costs, not money for good teachers. Other systems are burdened by crumbling infrastructures, physical facilities that are quite frankly unsafe, and lack of proper tools such as up to date texts to even accomplish the stated mission, to teach.
The emphasis on the standardization of tests to measure student's achievement levels and levels of academic performance are also a contributing part of the problem Jordan. There are educators who will argue that you are right, but also will argue that standards must be consistent. The question becomes how?
My brother is an educator within the Chicago Public School system and will tell you that the tests are a poor measure of aptitude and ability. But, in the same breath he will also tell you that the problems that the school systems confront daily all have one common factor, bad parenting or at the least, indifferent parenting. As a part time University instructor myself, dealing with kids that are coming out of these troubled systems, I can verify that as fact as well.
Jordan? There are NO simple solutions just as you cannot take a broad brush to paint the picture that the schools are ALL at fault due to the reasons you stated.
Also, your comment; "Most of you posting here have not been in that type of school setting I would estimate in about 30 years or so." Is entirely disrespectful as several persons here are educators besides being parents, one of whom happens to be the British equivalent of a Vice-Principal.
There are bad apples in every environ Jordan, it is truly up to parents and then the students themselves to make the system work and achieve standards that will last. Also, keep in mind this too Jordan, Education, is a life long process and endeavor. Should you stop learning, the greatest harm will be to yourself.
Now, as a journalist, I can tell you that alot of school systems in the U.S. are as bad as you indicated. Not all however.
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I had temporarily forgotten lack of parental support. In certain areas of the UK decline in the interest in education has been such over the last forty years that present day pupils are the second generation whose parents don't support. They don't know what support is.
As a generalisation - and all generalisations are wrong, even this generalisation - the Asian communities including Chinese value education, the Blacks and the 'working class' Whites for want of a better expression don't. Our government thinks that this can be cured by pumping money in without other support such as instilling a work ethic or a moral duty to better oneself.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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No, Nigel, I didn't - but then in the course of three years I went to two courses of lectures and each of them only lasted one term.
But, of course in those days there wasn't much competition from women. There were far fewer of them and they weren't prepared for competition in remembering things. In those days more effort was spent on getting us to think than getting us to remember. I think that showed a good sense of priorities.
Love,
Anthony
PS I'm talking about 1955 to 1958!
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I don't understand, Macky! Why would anyone want a manual job just because a parent had a desk job?
I never felt the least wish to do manual work and my father had a desk job.
I don't know of any of my contemporaries at school whose father had a manual job nor of any of their sons who wanted a manual job because their father had a desk job.
Of course, in those days a manual labourer or a football player might make £7 a week and a not very good desk job might bring £40 a week. There was no incentive of the sort you posit to rebel.
Love,
Anthony
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Yes, Macky, the student culture that expects everyone to boast about not doing homework and not trying in class has to be challenged. At the school where I was a governor the head was hot on such things. He maintained that children needed to be allowed to give themselves permission to try hard and to succeed. He acted on that and the school was probably the best state school in Bristol.
I had a good friend who had brains inherited from her parents but who tried to conceal them throughout her school career and as a consequence became a failure in life. In my opinion an education is a success if it succeeds in stretching the individual to achieve more than he or she could do on their own.
I doubt whether my own education counts as a success by such a test.
Love,
Anthony
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Well, Nigel, I know that people do leave school illiterate and innumerate but I doubt if the proportion is increasing. Is there trustworthy evidence?
Love,
Anthony
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Ooh! Macky I can't let you get away with that.
You wrote:
"all the school's care about is getting good marks on the tests so they get more funding which goes to their salaries anyway."
My experience of schools is quite different. I taught in some and some colleges and never heard that a salary increase would depend on the marks my pupils got - in any case I set the exams!
You wrote:
In the old days, the teachers used to get a non-monetary reward of sharing knowledge with the kids. It could be that in trying to incentivize teachers to do better, we have moved the incentive away from the student towards monetary reward.
I agree with you that very few teachers are in the profession for the money. I would say that a substantial part of them took the view that I did that bringing up children is the most important thing that anyone ever does and that a teacher is in loco parentis.
Your wrote:
That is why you end up with so many teachers that don't give a damn about the kids. I experienced some of that 40 years ago, but I also experienced excited, animated teachers too. Teachers that loved being with the kids. Teachers who actually enjoyed their time in the classroom. Now why did they enjoy it? Teachers were paid shit back in my high school days. I guess the money-grubbers went elsewhere and the folks who loved the work stayed on.
Yes but that isn't a reason for paying teachers badly. In my view more or less all western societies pay the class that undertakes socially caring professions too little and those that selfishly try their hardest to enrich themselves too much.
You wrote:
I also sometimes think that part of the burden of teaching should fall on the students. Back in the days of the one room schoolhouse (before my time, but my older brother attended one) the 5th graders would teach the first graders how to add. Who learned the most in such a set up, the first graders or the fifth graders? Why don't schools incentivize student mentors, with both honors, credit towards graduation, and money. Wouldn't everyone look up to the mentors, the mentored the teachers and administrators and even peers? Wouldn't everyone want to be one and to excel at it? Wouldn't the mentoring process teach valuable lessons in responsibility, understanding differences, proper social interaction, etc?
Are you sure that such mentoring doesn't happen. I think it does and to an increasing extent.
You wrote:
Or would the money-grubbing switch from the teachers to the students under such a system of incentives?
I don't think you have established that the teachers are money-grubbing. You even said that they were poorly paid!
You wrote:
Whatever the problem I think that;
1. It is an incentives problem.
2. It is the most important problem for any country to solve, because India is already pulling ahead academically and taKING JOBS VIA INTERNET, and the many people in Africa and Asia see that as a way of being a first world country too. Smarts flows equally over the world when you have an internet marketplace. And if your country don't have smarts, you get left out. The smart Africans will be driving the Corvettes of the future, unles we keep up.
Surely you already recognise that there are non-monetary incentives. If money incentives are all we can use then we have a problem because society already accepts differentials which to my eyes are quite obscene. How can it be right to pay the MD of a bank or any corporation 1000 times the pay of a head teacher?
It would, in my opinion, be much better to reduce the monetary differentials and to pay more attention to other things which make jobs attractive to people. In 'news from nowhere' dustmen were highly respected members of society and wore bright clothes. The social status of teachers ought to be higher and since we can't pay them more than bankers we have to find other ways to show how we value them.
Love,
Anthony
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Newspaper reports - if they are trustworthy - but they may at least lead you to a source.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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I agree. That is the point of the traditional university. I was using that as an example to show the difference in the way boys and girls process knowledge.
Schools these day tend not to teach people to think. They teach them to empathiise - history - what do you think it felt like to be a Jew in Nazi Germany. How could today's pupils possibly know from reading a few highly selective texts? Geography - dogma and propaganda - global warming, now discreetly renamed climate change - no marks if you dare to countenance cyclical change. Modern languages - you are presented with prefabricated situations, rather than synthesise your own. This restricts thinking. English language - whatever you do, don't teach grammar or spelling. Let's have the inconsequential meanderings of your mind which are incoherent to your reader, but at least they're creative.
Okay I confess to a tad hyperbole, but hyperbole is there to make a point.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"I don't understand, Macky! Why would anyone want a manual job just because a parent had a desk job?"
Youthful rebellion. It's what one gets when one does not do as good a job raising kids as you did.
"I never felt the least wish to do manual work and my father had a desk job."
My father had a manual job and for my entire youth I was told that I would not be a manual worker. I wasn't the rebellious type, so my job was not manual.
"I don't know of any of my contemporaries at school whose father had a manual job nor of any of their sons who wanted a manual job because their father had a desk job."
That's a shame really. I think a little rebellion against parental control is good and helps develop an adolescent kid into someone who can stand on his own two feet. Loking back, I sorta wish that I were a bit more rebellious....I had good cause to be.
"Of course, in those days a manual labourer or a football player might make £7 a week and a not very good desk job might bring £40 a week. There was no incentive of the sort you posit to rebel."
Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and mechanics will rule the world. Spend years pursuing an engineering degree and compete with India and the world. Learn how to fix the air conditioning, and your customers compete for you.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"taking responsibility for oneself and the second is to stop providing excuses, particularly for others."
It's true. There is a veritable "Cult of Irresponsibility" loose in the world today. However, there have to be reasons for this. People are irresponsible either due to nurture or nature. Everyone gets pissed when I say that, but it's what I believe. A baby is a tabula rasa and nurture and nature must be held responsible for its development. We'll never solve the problem by pointing out the irresponsible louts. We have to look for the root cause and correct it, so we don't get a surfeit of irresponsibles.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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I'm going to largely support Jordan on this. OK it's rather more than 30 years since I left school, but I work with school-aged work placements on a fairly regular basis, and in my last job frequently employed people on their first job after leaving school, college, or university.
Here in the UK, our education system has been reduced largely to futile box-ticking - certainly in the state system. The result is a generation of kids who have neither been given the basic tools, nor the breath of background knowledge, interest and enthusiasm to aquire them for themselves.
The "best of the best", supported by their parents, are still superb. But the education of the "average" kid declines almost yearly, and university degrees are regarded by many employers (including me) as essentially worthless ...
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Nigel wrote:
> The first thing we need is to instil taking responsibility for oneself and the second is to stop providing excuses, particularly for others.
I couldn't disagree more strongly.
The very FIRST thing we have to do is to ask ourselves why we manage to eradicate the birthright of curiosity, of desire to explore and learn about the world, that every child is born with. THAT is the first and greatest failing of our system.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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NW, I understand that you disagree with me, but I don't understand the reason you gave. I don't want to deny anyone the birthright of curiosity. By curiosity we gain experience and learning from our experience should lead us on to be responsible for ourselves. Perhaps with wisdom we might even learn from the experience of others.
Sadly a lot of people will never learn from experience.
If we as adults ever do restrict (not deny) that right, it is to prevent self-harm, surely a prime responsibility of parents and those in loco parentis.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Dearest Brody-
Let me inform you about the Pennsylvanian school district in which I currently reside the administration and Athletic Director were fired this past year for misappropriating funds from the school fund for clubs. Taking it and sneaking off with it and in addition to this NW thank you for taking my back its the same here in the USA(which mind you at last check graduates 17th most scientists in the world, so much for "Quality" education). Kids are nothing but mindless drones in society today, they are passed on like rows of sheep to the slaughter just because 1. the teachers don't give a damn and 2. they are athletes and get special treatment in school. or 3. they fill in random bubbles on test sheets and scrape by on the skins of their teeth. I have sat in on my Calculus class during class of course and we have had to do factoring and other basic things we learned(or atleast I did in Algebra I), the bloody kids did not know how to fvcking do that! basic concepts of Algebra they struggled with. Today's society is so fast and everything is simplified to the extreme.
I will leave you with a quote from George Carlin:
"Here, grab a pencil and get the fuck in there, its Physics"
That above quote shows the state of the US Education System. we do not prepare our kids for jack shit and they are ignorant because of it.
[Updated on: Tue, 10 November 2009 02:05] |
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It's been about that many years since I was in the public school system. So I don't really feel qualified to comment on the current state of affairs except for what I've read about or the results that I've witnessed. As far as the results I've personally witnessed, the recent graduates have appalling spelling and grammar abilities. For a generation raised on the computer and the written word, that seems strange. Is English no longer a core subject?
I've watched Jay Leno put youngsters on the street through some simple geography tests. I feel embarrassed for them. Then I watch the quiz show 'Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader' and am amazed at some of the questions for that grade level. So what the heck happens by grade 12? Are they simply passed from grade to grade without needing to do the corresponding work?
I realize that the problems and solutions may differ from state to state as each state is responsible for their own educational system. But some things seem to be universal about today's American high school graduates. They cannot hold a candle to the graduates from Asia and other countries. Other countries seem to be turning out way better educated citizens. That, in itself, doesn't bode well for the future of our country.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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"Let me inform you about the Pennsylvanian school district in which I currently reside the administration and Athletic Director were fired this past year for misappropriating funds from the school fund for clubs."
From my perspective as a journalist Jordan, I'm not shocked in the slightest by that as there is a climate of corruption within the U. S. at various levels & organisations that seems to be extremely prevalent these days.
However, that is not to say ALL Pennsylvania school districts suffer from that sort of criminal & reprehensible behaviour. True?
Next; "Kids are nothing but mindless drones in society today, they are passed on like rows of sheep to the slaughter just because 1. the teachers don't give a damn and 2. they are athletes and get special treatment in school. or 3. they fill in random bubbles on test sheets and scrape by on the skins of their teeth." I find that your assertion that kids are drones is baseless. Not long ago, one of those drones founded a social networking company that is worth billions of dollars, his name is Mark Elliot Zuckerberg, who by the way is now only 25 years old. It should be noted that he graduated from a public school. Oh yes, that company is Facebook.
Here's the thing Jordan, as I stated in my first response, you are being unfair when you depict an entire system as being a failure. Oh and as far as your number 2 and 3 statements? I believe that my brother in the Chicago Public Schools would agree with you to a point as would I.
The U. S. has problems, severe in some cases. I know a young man who is only a year older than you and a freshmen at PSU up there in State College. He came out of a badly broken school district near Wilkes-Barre and admits that he barely scraped by with the school system in his words; "being super shitty." Yet, he somehow managed to gain entrance to Penn State.
A lot of effective changes and more so, the need is going to have to come from parents, and students Jordan. Now, in fairness, yeah, you at 17 are seeing things from your perspective of being in those hallways daily. BUT, me at 50 nearly 51, and being a parent of a 20 year old PLUS teaching part time, I have yet another perspective.
I am NOT claiming that there aren't huge problems with U. S. schools. There most definitely are Jordan, no doubt. And yes, standard tests are pretty much useless as a solid measure of a student's academic achievements, prowess, and most of all, success in obtaining the skills and knowledge to move forward.
But using the Facebook founder as an example, not all schools are a failure.
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The gains of one man in the face of adversity does not mean all is well with the entire system
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Nigel, what you wrote was that the FIRST thing to teach was to take responsibilty.
It is too easy to disagree about the order in which one does things, but the age at which one begins to be able to take serious responsibility surely comes a long way after (if one is lucky) one has acquired a delight in finding things out and in reading and in close observation and in experiment.
Now be nice to NW and admit it.
Love,
Anthony
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Hi Anthony!
The "first thing" I referred to was in reference to the ethos of the present age rather than the first item in a scheme of work. Also I think I was answering Jordan's post, rather than NW's.
That is probably why I misunderstood NW. Btw, I hope I always have been and still am nice to him. But I do admit to being obtuse in understanding this subtlety.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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