I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
I don't think any woman should marry a man and have children by him if he is going to go off and risk leaving them fatherless. Do you?
I don't think any man should undertake anything that might involve a serious risk that he could not bring up his children. That means (in my book) that no one with young children ought to serve in the forces. Do you think they should?
And I think that the repeated (ad nauseam) honours to the forces on armistice day are promoted by the government to divert us from the unjustified and unacceptable intervention by our troops in foreign countries where there is no long term hope of improving the way they live. The expenditure in Iraq and Afghanistan could have been spent on eliminating child poverty in the UK. About a third of our children are brought up in poverty!
And if all the danger to our society arises from people who have visited Afghanistan it would not be difficult to exclude people who have been there from entering the UK. We do that for economic migrants from east Europe and north Africa. Surely such a procedure would not cost the billions of pounds that the Afghanistan adventure has cost.
I am out of sympathy with our militaristic even jingoistic society. We ought to promote peace, not war. Surely you would agree with that?
And my attitude to the armed forces is derived from my experience serving in them when I did my national service when I spent time in army camps, RAF camps and in the navy on ships and shore stations.
I assure you that I wasn't prejudiced before those experiences.
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1560
I don't see that sacrificing oneself to protect others is the especial preserve of the military - I think it's a pretty basic human thing to do, and I rather resent the implication in the song that it's special because a soldier did it.
Of course, I would say that ... I espoused the route of non-violence some 40 years ago. This morning as I stood - alone - outside, observing the two minute Armistice Day silence that marks the end of the "war to end war" 91 years ago, the poppy on my jacket was a white one. I think of soldiers of all nations in all ages, their families and loved ones, soldiers and civilians living with the consequences of war, and those conscripts stressed beyond bearing who were shot for desertion. But - as winter approaches - I think most of all of those ex-Services personnel sleeping rough (or in-and-out of jail) because we as a society really don't give a toss about the emotional and psychological injuries and damage that too many of our soldiers suffer, which makes it so difficult for so many to ever again live the kind of "normal" lives so many people take for granted.
In the UK, if the Haig Fund / RBL poppy sellers would face these real. genuine and urgent problems rather than concentrating on the oh-so-photogenic "grieving widow and kids", I'd have considerably more respect for them, and might even buy a red poppy as well as a white one.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
NW,
Does there have to be an enmity between the white and the red poppy? Is it wrong to honor those who willingly gave up everything or those who were required to give up everything? I think that we all should work for peace in our own way. But pitting a white poppy against the red poppy seems like a sort of shameful opportunism to me. I think that all war is a mark of failure. I think it all emanates from human failure on all sides. But I think all discussion of the justness of war, or whether it was a total mistake should be put aside when we remember the people who sacrificed or were sacrificed. It just doesn't seem right to have another message impinging upon it. Maybe it's just me.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1560
It may be different in other countries. Here in the UK the organisation responsible for poppies is seen by many pacifists as being deeply complicit in recruitment for the services, and generally at least glorifying certain aspects of war (usually described as "sacrifice", "comradeship" or whatever) if not actually overtly "pro-war", rather than simply an organisation doing its best to recognise and ameliorate the suffering of those who have served in the forces, or been affected by family members doing so.
The poppy honours all those affected by war. Some people wear both the white poppy and the red. I cannot in conscience do so, while we as a society shuffle off onto a charity our responsibility to those people we have asked or ordered to put themselves at risk on our behalf. The more so because my experience with employing ex-services personnel, and with a number of street-sleepers I know from a Forces background, has made me acutely aware of just how little that charity does for some of those most in need but least popularly appealing.
As I say, it may be different in other countries.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733
Here's one of the reasons, regardless of the politics, regardless of the emotions, I honor those who served because it is all rendered trivial when one considers the cost. They who wear the uniform are somebody's brother, or father, or husband, or boyfriend, or even grandfather.
The PM caught flack for this recently, but there still remains the fact that this beautiful young man is no longer here and for that reason, politics aside, I honour his memory with a red poppy in remembrance.
Guardsman Jamie Janes, 20, died after an explosion while he was on foot patrol in Helmand
Tributes were paid today to a British serviceman killed in Afghanistan who was a "soldier to his heart and a friend to all".
Guardsman Jamie Janes, 20, of 1st Battalion the Grenadier Guards, died in Nad Ali district in central Helmand province on a bright Monday morning this past October.
His death took to 220 the number of British troops killed in Afghanistan since the mission began eight years ago.
Lieutenant Colonel Roly Walker, commanding officer of the Grenadier Guards battle group, said: "So early in our tour, the tragic death of one of our brave young men comes as a shock. Jamie was a soldier to his heart and a friend to all."
Guardsman Janes died on the way to hospital after an explosion while he was on foot patrol.
Three of his colleagues were wounded in the blast, which was followed by an ambush by insurgents, the Ministry of Defence said.
He was born in Stafford but his family moved to Brighton when he was two.
After beginning his army career at the age of 16, he joined 1st Battalion the Grenadier Guards when he was 18.
He leaves his girlfriend, Kate, three brothers – including one serving in the army – two sisters and his mother.
Walker added: "He knew the dangers he would face in Afghanistan but he had the courage to keep soldiering.
"He stood tall amongst his fellow men as an experienced hand who willingly stepped forward to take on the difficult task of clearing routes, and he gave the less experienced soldiers in his section huge confidence.
"He leaves behind a strong impression and his memory will inspire us. I am hugely proud of him, and humbled by his sacrifice."
Guardsman Janes died in the way lived, "protecting his friends from danger", Major Richard Green, his company commander, said.
"His experience and cool head reassured the younger, less experienced guardsmen and set their minds at ease as they began to come to terms with the task at hand."
The defence secretary, Bob Ainsworth, praised Guardsman Janes's "exemplary service".
"I was very sorry to learn of the death of Guardsman Jamie Janes, a soldier who, I'm told, had given exemplary service since joining the army at 16 and had a promising career ahead of him," he said
Guardsman Jamie Janes of 1st Battalion the Grenadier Guards. Photograph: MoD/PA
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
"As I say, it may be different in other countries."
There is plenty of war glorification going on here in USA, but I haven't seen any from the poppy pushers.
Here's what I do to end all war.
1. I try not to hurt or anger other people. I try. I'm imperfect. It's obvious enough that I have angered some folks here at times, even one as kind as you. When I do that, I see myself as contributing to the cause of war. I try to help folks have a nicer day. I feel that when I anger or hurt, I cause a spillover...a sort of domino effect...Tolstoy's ripples in a still lake sort of stuff. I think any bit of mean-heartedness ultimately contributes to war. As does any failure on my part to be well versed in everyone's situation, needs, background etc etc etc. It's really impossible to keep from hurting or enraging people. There's no way to understand everyone perfectly. Yet, I hate to say that war is inevitable.
2. A basic life tenet of mine is to try to absorb hurt done to me. I always try not to retaliate. That's hard because sometimes when I assert an opinion that I really feel in a discussion and it enrages someone. I can't let someone's anger or hurt change what I believe...how could I have any credibility to myself if I did that?
Anyway that's my campaign to end all war. I deal directly with the only person that I have any hope of controlling...myself.
I'm admittedly shitty at it, but I am quite proud of myself for having the desire to live up to these goals.
Does everyone think of something they can do to end war? It would be interesting to hear some methodologies.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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