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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Whatever preconceptions I had about Israel before I went are wrong. I have come back knowing I knew nothing and knowing how little I know now.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Welcome home, sweetie. Did you get a chance to visit with many unique folks? Didn't you say you might visit the gay couple that had the surrogate mother baby in India?
Macky
[Updated on: Sat, 14 November 2009 01:26]
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I met many delightful folk, and yes, I met Yonatan, who happens to be drop dead gorgeous as well as having a delightful and much loved baby son. I didn't meet his son or partner, but I confess to envying his partner! The little lad was in kindergarten and Yonatan had to leave to go and collect him.
All I know for sure is that any preconceptions I had about Israel were wholly incorrect. And I never realised before that Judaism is far more an ethical system by which one lives one's life than a simple religion. It doesn't actually require a deity for it to function. It doesn't matter whether there is a deity or not, though the belief in a deity assists its system of ethics.
A wise man said while I was there "If Judaism is to survive and strengthen in the next couple of centuries it needs to de-emphasise the role of god." I find that in interesting view. The man who said it is a devout man, and he sees beyond the religion to the ethical scheme that underpins it. Or does the belief in god underpin the ethical system?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Timmy,
What a joy to see an ordinary gay couple raising their ordinary child. Why isn't it common.
I so enjoyed your commentary on Judaism as a system of ethics that de emphasizes the deity. It hits the nail on the head as regards some feelings I've been having of late. We are not children or Pavlov's dogs who need reward and punishment to guide our behavior. If the deity is the personification of 'good', then we are the personification of that deity when we take an interest in and expend effort to advance the cause of 'good' in the world. Good people get tripped up with a deity. 'My deity says this. My deity says that. Here, let me kill you so you don't piss off the deity.'. The existance of the deity is inconsequential when we get down to the nuts and bolts of how I treat people. Personally, I think that was the original idea of all the major religions , before theists guided them off the deep end. And I think that all religions must follow the coursr laid out by your wise Jewish man. Religion ain't where worship the deity, it's where we learn how we should live.
How different the world would be, should we give that precept our faith.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I am by no means the philosopher. I do need to point out that any religion, however ethical, also has its fair share of bigots, racists, elitists and nuts. They interpret the ethics in their unique manner and proceed to do harm in the mistaken belief that they are fostering the objectives of their religion. Who can say that their harm is not good and my good is not harm?
I also need to say that I saw no more than the surface, the superficial things, when I was there. There will be things close to that surface that probably turn on their head the things I think I have seen so clearly.
All I can say for sure is those things that I saw and understood I appreciated. There is much left unseen and not understood.
[Updated on: Sat, 14 November 2009 17:07]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"There is much left unseen and not understood."
Life's recurrent lesson.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Who is Yonatan, Timmy?
He sounds nice. But I'm lost!
Sylvia has been reading Shlomo Sand's "The invention of the jewish people" which turns a good many of the stories about the origin of the jews from stories into myths.
I'd be surprised if JFR approved (but you never can tell with JFR!).
JFR! What do you think about it?
Love,
Anthony
[edited to replace personal name with JFR. Privacy, please. timmy]
[Updated on: Sun, 15 November 2009 07:42] by Moderator |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Yonatan is the director of Jerusalem Open House
I'd have to read the book to make any sort of comment upon it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I think I have serious doubts about the book since the author is by no means a specialist in that period of history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand In general one needs to have rigorous qualifications in a period in order to write authoritatively upon it and this author appears not to have any such qualifications.
I can understand it being a popular book on the bookshelves, but I cannot see, even unread, how it can be authoritative, even if interesting.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well, I hear that the author is pretty cogent for the case he makes and since he is a bit of an iconoclast I'm tempted to support him - but, of course, I don't know diddley-squat about it.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Anyone can be an iconoclast.
If he is not qualified to perform the research, and is not an acknowledged academic expert in the field, then his writing is rubbish by definition. Look at this guy's field of study. It is modern, modern modern. He cannot bring a rigorous research based approach to something that is not in his field.
His main areas of teaching are nationalism, film as history and French intellectual history.
So, in this area, he has no academic value, and his work is invalid. I am as much an authority as is he. I do not need to read his work to know that he is not a valid or useful source of information for ancient history.
Pass me an icon, and I will break it. I have as much authority to do so.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Let's be very specific about authors with hypotheses which they want to sell. They sell them.
This work ought to have been presented for peer review, and at an academic conference, and published as a proper research paper.
By not doing so, and by going directly into popular print the thing is already devalued. It doesn't matter whether it has confirmed that God created the Earth and Israel is the Promised Land, or decided that the Israelites came down from the moon, it is populist pap fiction, by definition.
I have no interest one way or the other in whether the Jews have a legitimate claim to Israel. But I am interested in the idea of promoting pure propaganda on one side or the other of the discussion.
No peer review means that it will not withstand peer review. This means that it is unmitigated crap. I expect he has made some money out of it though. But it is as real as The Da Vinci Code.
This turkey is a professor of history in Tel Aviv. But the branch of history is wholly different from the subject matter of this tome. So he knows the self same diddley squat about the subject as you do. And you are just as well qualified as he is to write this stuff.
Are we back to the Illuminati again?
[Updated on: Sat, 14 November 2009 23:34]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Timmy and Anthony, your give and take here is fascinating. If I were to hear two Americans have this discussion, I would say they were somewhat peeved at each other. Is that how the English take it, or is this a method of discourse common in UK? There's no double entendre here, I'm just interested.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I don't see any give and take. I see a profit being made out of a non peer reviewed populist hypothesis that is being promoted to the gullible, and then being reported as some sort of set of alleged facts.
If the man's hypothesis had any validity it would have been peer reviewed and presented in academe. That he chose to publish in the populist manner together with his interesting background shows that he ought to have his academic standing revalidated. But then what harm can he do in the banal areas that he teaches!
I do wonder why it was introduced in this thread in the first place, but that is a wholly different matter.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"that is being promoted to the gullible"
Timmy, I'm doing work here, so that I don't get into as many squabbles whit you. But when you say the quote above, here's what I hear;
"Anthony, you're a gullible old fool for reading such drivel."
It really sounds insulting to me...I mean I am not insulted, but I think that Anthony might be.
So I was just wondering if this is acceptable discourse among the English or if, perhaps, you did not realize that your words could have been construed as unkind.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Oh dear. While one may read such a book without being accused of being gullible, the author promotes the book to the gullible.
Having got that out of the way, look at the man's lack of academic qualifications in this field. He has written a book without having even the minimal qualifications required to write it.
Such hypotheses are always, if they are to have any credibility at all, peer reviewed. They are published in academic journals and either stand up to peer scrutiny and are accepted as a relevant hypothesis, or they are destroyed as so much pap and poor research.
Promoting such a book is interesting. I have just read, for example, Robbie Garner's 'Nobody Came'. I have read it and was appalled by what it describes. But I have no idea if it was true or if it has gross inaccuracies. I have mentioned it in another post here and in an article on my blog where one commenter is pouring scorn on my mentioning it. It can easily be said that I am promoting the book.
But there is a difference. Garner's book is an almost contemporaneous history of his incarceration and alleged abuse in a Jersey (The Channel Isles) Children's Home. Sand is purporting to have written proper research. And he may even have researched it. But whereas Garner does not require qualifications and peer review, Sand does.
Anyone promoting Sand's book as authoritative shows serious gullibility. Those suggesting simply that one may wish to read it and pass an opinion on it do not.
[Updated on: Sun, 15 November 2009 18:42]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Anthony asked for my input. I shall write a few sentences here even though I feel that the topic has been fully covered by the discussions between Anthony and Timmy.
Shlomo Sands is an incorrigible opportunist. He has admitted - not even shamefacedly - that he did not dare to publish his book until after he had been given tenure by an unsuspecting Tel-Aviv University. Not one other scholar - reputable or otherwise - has endorsed even a small part of his thesis. Many have pointed out that it is so riddled with holes that it could never hold water (if you will forgive the metaphors). People who have attended his lectures describe him as a flamboyant showman rather than a learned professor: when lecturing about his book he takes a microphone down into the audience in order to harangue anyone rash enough to question the soundness - validity, even - of his claims.
His book is of the nature "make me a packet quickly - before they find out."
I assume that Anthony was interested in hearing my views on Sands' thesis and not on the man himself. The whole idea is sheer poppycock, rubbish. Even though I can hardly claim any kind of expertise in Jewish history I can claim knowledge. Not so very long ago - about 15 years ago, I think - a very widespread DNA test was done on a certain segment of the Jewish population of the world: all the testees claimed to be of the priestly caste, descended from an original priest. It was discovered that a very large percentage of such people (hailing from many different parts of the Jewish world culturally and socially) shared a common gene that was shared by no other members of the Jewish people and that could be traced back in time to the 7th century BCE. Another DNA test done on Jews hailing originally from Europe showed that so great was the devastation wreaked upon the Jews in the middle ages that modern European Jews are descended from only four women living in central Europe in the early middle ages. Neither of these results should have been possible according to Sands' thesis.
Even more interesting is the fact that most Jews living today carry genes that go back to the Middle East of some 2000 years ago. However, most interesting are the results of DNA sampling of the Palestinian population. The greatest part of that population seems to have originated in Lebanon but a significant minority have genes that indicate a Jewish provenance! It would seem that these people are descended from Jews who, rather than leave the country, first adopted Byzantine Christianity and/or later adopted Islam.
What I have written above is easily verifiable from numerous articles available on the Internet. Nothing that I have written is strikingly new: it is "daily bread" to scholars and has been for decades.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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JFR wrote:
>all the testees claimed to be of the priestly caste,<
Sacerdotal balls! (lol)
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nice one, Nigel! Score 10!
Love,
Anthony
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Dear JFR,
I'm curious to know why some jews seem glad when DNA is said to provide evidence that there is a common ancestry for all jews. It seems to me that, above all of the people to suffer from vicious racism, jews should be keen for the racist myth to be untrue.
Whether it is true or not is beside the point. The question is why should a non-racist want it to be true?
Love,
Anthony
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acam wrote:
I'm curious to know why some jews seem glad when DNA is said to provide evidence that there is a common ancestry for all jews.
I think the gladness is in your own heart or mind. I have never come across gladness for the reason that you mention. It is just accepted as a fact that reinforces what Jews have known and believed for more than two millennia.
Having said that, we must remember that the Jewish people, as constituted today, is not genetically pure as you seem to imply. Over the centuries non-Jews have thrown in their lot with the Jews - usually for reasons of belief - and they, of course, have added their genes to the general pool.
In the country where I live Jews have returned from "the four corners of the earth" (the "ingathering of the exiles") and you will find Jews who are as blond as a Scandinavian and as black as an Ethiopian.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I wonder if you know that to be Jewish, like to be a Sikh, is a racial thing, an ethnicity? One may be either of these races without being religious, and one may follow the religion without being of that race.
It follows that DNA will have a common thread or two among an ethnic group.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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As one who enjoys researching my ancestors, I would think that finding a Jew in the woodpile would be quite a delight, because in one fell swoop one could go back thousands of years and have a fairly well documented history. I must admit, that when I attended my former bosses son's Bar Mitzvah, and heard the "ben Levy" appended to his name, I was both impressed and jealous of the preserved history.
Of course there can be folks who get too caught up in the pride of their heritage, and, well, get to be a bit too much. I am reminded of a series of letters that eminent Jewish American physicist Richard Feynman wrote to a lady who was writing a book about Jewish Geniuses. When she asked for his input, Feynman accused her of being a racist, and gave her a good verbal throttling. The book of Feynman's letters, published by his daughter is quite informative of this delightful man's private life. I would recommend it.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Yes, Macky, I'm with Feynman in thinking that positive racism is almost as much to be disliked as negative racism.
Why should I be proud of being black or jewish or hispanic or irish or gay or straight or any of the many things about me that I had (& have) no control over?
I'm a bit chary of being proud of the things I *have* achieved, because after all I was not responsible for whatever talent I have inherited and maybe given another try could have exploited them to much better effect.
I know what makes me ashamed but the opposite emotion calls for self-approval of a sort that I'm not sure I like.
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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And no, it isn't a wet fish in the face.
The thing that strikes me is that I went to Israel loaded with preconceptions and misconceptions. That's hardly surprising in view of the PR bombardment from all the groups who feel that Israel is an affront to them, should not be allowed to exist, must be wiped from the face of the earth, etc.
I also grew up in a country in the 1950s and 1960s that was more than a little anti-semitic. To be as fair as I can be to the UK, it is always anti the last group of immigrants to arrive, and it soon started on the Blacks and Asians and forgot about the Jews. But a large influx of Jews, the lucky ones, arrived in 1939, some on Kindertransport. And not everyone assimilated well
My own father spoke accent mit ein trace of Englisch all his life, but did his best to become more English than the English. Even so there was a bias against Jews. I'm not a Jew. My mother wasn't, so I am not. It's that simple.
I was quite bewildered when, in school in 1966, a nasty pallid Scots kid picked on me "You look like a Yid!" probably because I have a reasonably large nose. If I spin round fast I can cause a hurricane.
Anti-semitism seems ingrained in the British psyche. My school was always Jew bashing. "Yiddo Berger" knew all about that. He had the misfortune to look like we all imagine Fagin to look like. He was the full Ron Moody. Even so, in this environment one pair of brothers pretended to be Jewish in order to avoid daily and Sunday chapel services!
So what is it that strikes me?
In daily life, as soon as someone mentions something positive about Israel more people find negative things to say. It's as if there is the Bill Sykes Knee Jerk Defence when matters Israeli are mentioned.
So, as I discovered, the country has problems. All countries have problems. You and I are not going to solve the issue with the Palestinians, not now, and not next year. Only two peoples can solve that and they live there. It's even more complex than I realised, and, if I hear from the other side, it'll get even more complex. My opinion doesn't matter. I'm going to stick with "Good luck with that!" as my message to both sides because they have each, in their own way, allowed an impossible situation to remain.
But I still don't understand why we bridle when the country is mentioned. A man with a bad haircut and a nasty moustache went as far as killing how many? Check the figures out. How many? And, as if that wasn't unpleasant enough, we display inbuilt anti-semitism, probably without knowing it.
What's with that?
So, if, like me, you thought you knew what this small nation and its people are all about, let me share what I know with you.
I know more than I did before. I know that what I thought I knew was wrong.
That's it.
So go, visit, but not as a tourist. Visit to learn about the people and the land. And learn as a teacher, not as a student. You may discover how little you know, just like I did.
[Updated on: Wed, 18 November 2009 16:03]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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acam wrote:
Why should I be proud of being black or jewish or hispanic or irish or gay or straight or any of the many things about me that I had (& have) no control over?
There are two things in Anthony's list over which we do not have control: the colour of our skin and our sexual orientation. All the others are under our control: I can cease to be Irish if I want to and I can cast my lot with the people of Iceland. I have control over my membership of the Jewish people - and I am proud of that membership. It has nothing to do with race. Only yesterday evening I was talking with a woman who was born in Peru who voluntarily decided to reject her religion, her people and her country and to cast her lot with the Jews and with the State of Israel. No one and nothing forced that on her. So she is a Jew of Incan descent - and she is proud of it!
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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Yet, perversely in view of what you have said, in the UK any prejudice against Jews is an offence under Race Relations legislation. Unless I am making a total arse of myself.
It is an intriguing paradox
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy, I think you'll find that incitement to racial hatred or a racially motivated crime would be a criminal offence in the UK. You cannot legislate against prejudice. The myriad of employment laws and "consumer protection" laws would mean a civil offence.
I would disagree with JFR on the point of casting off - in his example - being Irish by renouncing Irish citizenship and applying to become an Icelandic citizen. Whatever the law or the bit of paper you still retain the genes and the culture of your nurture, however much you might deny them.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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even so, it is racial, not religious laws it is framed under.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear JFR,
Did you read the bit of the sentence of mine you quote that came after the last 'or'?
Love,
Anthony
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Most certainly I did!
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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