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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I'm sure you have no idea how to do this either. But what we can do, each of us, is to pass the idea to our nearest and dearest, to our friends, our acquaintances, our colleagues. Being killed by the state for being black skinned is unacceptable globally.
Being killed by the state for being homosexual is acceptable in some nations.
It is time this was stopped and these nations, powerful nations, were brought to heel in the international formal forums of the world. Uganda is but the fuse that has been lit. Yes, Uganda matters, but not as much as stopping what can only be called Homosexual Genocide in these uncivilised nations.
So help me, please. I don't know how to do this, but the six degrees of separation between each of us and someone who has the resources, the knowledge, the balls to start to make this happen mean that all we have to do is to pass the message on.
Somewhere is a resourceful man or woman who knows how to do this, knows how to start the engine, knows how to make this catch the public gaze.
This is not a petition thing, though petitions may be a part of it. But to whom does one address a petition? So please, simply start by using Twitter, by using Facebook, by using social networking and starting to make this happen.
We are all one voice each. Together we are unstoppable.
I am sending this to all in my personal address book and all people that I know. Please do the same. The url of the place this starts for me is here, please include it: http://tinyurl.com/yjfk3g8 Let's start 2010 with this task!
[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2009 10:21]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Please place this or something very like it there. Or post there that links to here, or your own post, or something to get this going.
This is an idea whose time has come. Now is that time.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Timmy,
You can get nasty with me and I won't take offense, because I know how strongly you feel about this issue. But many people feel that the death penalty is wrong for whatever reason it is imposed.
I feel that should I join a campaign to stop the death penalty for gays in Uganda, that I would be tackling only part of the problem. It would almost make me feel that I condoned the death penalty in other areas.
acam's moral relativity argument is applicable here. If it's wrong to kill, then its wrong to kill innocent gays, as well as, guilty murderers. It seems to me that the campaign should be pursued on absolute morality terms.
Gays seems especially innocent people to impose the penalty on, but many other types of innocents are being killed too. Could we perhaps make this campaign a subset of the greater campaign to end capital punishment all together?
But then if some people here favor capital punishment in certain instances, then we have rancor in the choir, so how do we proceed in the face of that?
Macky:-???
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Max? Listen to me carefully please! While your remarks are on target insofar as there are indeed issues to be had regarding the death penalty in a wider view, you are completely missing Tim's point.
The purpose for this site is what Max? Or better still, what is the common theme and element here? Homosexuality, yes? While not rising in defence of the death penalty I am rising in support of my fellow LGBT people everywhere and that includes those being killed in Iran and other countries solely because of their sexuality. THIS, this is the point Max. Okay?
Activism on any level is always very helpful.... but you cannot straddle a line and blur the issues with meaningless drivel & dreck about a larger world view which is not specific to the true nature of the MEN who visit here, to this place. This is about us, Gay people Max, not whether or not the death penalty is right or wrong or immoral even on a larger scale. This is about folks being singled out because of their sexuality.
I know you don't like me, fine. Go then to the pinknews.uk or The New York Times, or the Advocate.com and read about this stuff. Watch Rachel's show on MSNBC.com and then realise that this is a horrible mockery of civilised behaviours by the governments of Uganda and now Rwanda. Let alone the onerous atrocities perpetuated by the government of Iran against Gay and Lesbian people.
[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2009 17:53] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If I read you right then there is a huge disconnect in your argument. Not doing a little because you can't do a lot is invalid. You do what you can do.
What we are looking at is basic human rights. One can have many lengthy debates about validity or not of the death penalty for killing another human being. Such debates are valid because the penalty can be considered to be proportionate. Individuals may consider it valid or not in those circumstances and each has a right to put its case.
But where we are speaking of the death penalty for simply existing, that is a wholly different matter.
If it were that "All residents living on odd numbered buildings were to be put to death by hanging" that would set it in to better perspective. Surely you would support without hesitation any action to counter such a ludicrous law?
And that is the whole point. Whether it is moral or immoral to execute someone for murder is a wholly different discussion from the execution of someone because they simply exist, isn't it?
I absolutely respect your opinion on the death penalty. I may or may not agree with it, which is fine. But I disagree with what I perceive to be your concept that you cannot express an opinion about what is, effectively, genocide.
Have I understood you correctly? And if I have do you now understand me better?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Sorry, Max. An addendum. I am not talking about Uganda except that Uganda has lit the fuse. Nor am I talking about Rwanda. I am talking of all the nations in the world who execute homosexuals. I believe with a passion that the time is right now, today.
I can't do much. You can't do much either. We as a pair can do only marginally more than each of us can separately. But we as small people in a huge movement, a movement we can start, we can achieve enormous results.
If we don't try we will achieve nothing
Please come and try with me.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"I know you don't like me, fine."
I don't understand how you can feel this way. What? Do I have to kiss you on the lips?
I certainly am not against a campaign against the proposed Uganda law. I'm sure you know that.
I'm just trying to widen the scope beyond our parochial interests. We are not a clique, like arich said, are we?
I want to say that the death penalty is always wrong first. Then, that being said, I want to address this particular case in Uganda, within what I see as the wider cotext of the problem. I'm afraid that I agree with Anthony ie morality is absolute.
Max
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Ah, I did misunderstand you. Mea culpa. Apologies.
It's far wider than Uganda, of course. We absolutely must not limit this to Uganda. Uganda has just hit the headlines.
I see nothing at all wrong with stating that the death penalty is al;ways wrong, provided we don;t get drawn into that as the discussion. We are gay men. And I want very much to avoid diluting this into general morality, either absolute or relative.
We need to fight the fight that is winnable and after that is won then fight the fight we felt might not be won. So concentrating on the execution of homosexuals is, today, important, for today, that has the public interest.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I SAID, that I wasn't taking you to task about the death penalty. I am talking about the fact that GAY people are specifically targeted because of their sexuality Max. Not about whether some dumb bastard is gonna get lethal injection or electrocution due to the fact that he broke the law and is criminally liable/culpable.
Tim is asking for us, you, me. them (pointing at other APOS posters & lurkers) and asking that we, as G A Y or BI men get proactive and combat what he has fairly termed Homosexual Genocide.
Max, I am here as a G A Y man... okay? If I wanted to debate say cosmic consciousness and morality then I'd go find a message board that dealt with that and other similar topics and themes.
Why are you so afraid of the G A Y word? Further, I get blasted for posting news articles hoping to spur on conversation about GAY specific subjects instead of dreck and drivel about stuff that indeed made it appear that as Arich indicated, turned things around here into a clique although I prefer the term Gentleman's Club.
The reason I said what I did about not liking me you know damned well why I said that! Which reminds me:
The duty of the journalist is to further those ends by seeking truth and providing a fair and comprehensive account of events and issues. Conscientious journalists from all media and specialties strive to serve the public with thoroughness and honesty. Professional integrity is the cornerstone of a journalist's credibility.
As a G A Y man it is also my responsibility to be PROACTIVE about issues that AFFECT me and my G A Y peers. As such Gay Marriage is one such issue, but Tim's cause is VERY much in keeping with that responsibility.
Death penalty for criminal punishment is NOT germane to what Tim is asking Max nor does it need to be debated on in this thread. So, am I a little more clear now?
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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OK,
The missus and I always state our views when the subject of capital punishment comes up. Uganda can just be a current example in those conversations.
I'll start threads on the subject in appropriate forums I subscribe to, and search out places where capital punishment is being discussed and mention Uganda as a current example.
But if I reference a blog entry or article that speaks to the problem, I would want it to talk to the wider context, as well as, the specific instance of Uganda. But I can't find a reference that does that.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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If we always included a unique url like I mentioned previously, in our various forum posts about this, we could track the viral spreading of the word by doing a simple google on the url to watch the number of references to it increase.
That way if it were not spreading quickly enough we might want to change tactic or something. A google search including something identifying the type of forum posted to would indicate which types of forums were most effective to post to.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think you are still not quite on board with the total point though. Maybe I set it out poorly.
The Uganda item has raised the issue of state sanctioned murder of homosexuals. It has given it a very high profile, higher, currently, than probably any other example of state sanctioned murder.
But Uganda is by no means alone. Saudi Arabia executes homosexuals. Iran executes homosexuals. These countries murder people simply because they are who they are.
While one cannot say that homosexuals are a race, therefore the word 'genocide' is not quite appropriate, the only words to describe what they do is a Genocide of Homosexuals. In reality we are not speaking about capital punishment, the death penalty. In reality we are speaking of disposing of a whole section of society.
To speak of 'The Death Penalty' is somehow to sanitise this in a legalistic manner to make it pseudo-acceptable. It is death, yes, but not a penalty. A penalty implies a transgression. Being homosexual is not a thing that merits a penalty.
So, by all means speak of your confirmed opposition to the death penalty, but be aware. please, that this is something different. This is the attempt in these nations to 'cleanse' their society of people like you, me, and so many millions of others. This is not the death penalty, this is a new holocaust.
This is far bigger than 'simple' execution. This is state sanctioned extermination.
And that is why you can find no blog post that meets your subtly different needs. The wider context as you have described it is not context for this issue at all.
[Updated on: Sat, 19 December 2009 22:14]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The best areas to track this stuff tend to be social networks. Twitter is an amazing tool once an idea takes hold.
In reality there is no way of confining an idea to a set url. The best one can hope for is that a great wordsmith produces something memorable and that others grab hold of it, report in it, write opinion pieces about it, cause it to be debated by elected representatives, create petitions about it, ask Azaaz to champion it, get it to hit things like The Rachel Maddow Show, and so forth.
This is far bigger than a bloke and a website. To make a difference this has to become a phenomenon.
And this is why it's important not to divert it into the different topic of capital punishment for crimes. Although the outcome - death - is the same, the cause of the death in one case is societal revenge, and the other is a desire to eliminate homosexual people.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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"Not about whether some dumb bastard is gonna get lethal injection or electrocution due to the fact that he broke the law and is criminally liable/culpable."
Perhaps for you they are 2 separate issues. I don't think that is so for everyone. I do not want to limit my activity to Uganda or the persecution of homosexuals. Why should I countenance all the other forms of the problem by speaking only to one part of it? I'm not just a gay man. I'm a husband, a father, a citizen, a volunteer, and so many other things.
"Why are you so afraid of the G A Y word?"
Because I always have been. It could be because I have a somewhat weaker character than you, or it could be because my situation is more complex. But we needn't talk about that, because I'm always working on trying to be less afraid of the word "G A Y". Aren't we all?
"The reason I said what I did about not liking me you know damned well why I said that!"
No, really, I'm at a loss. Did you say it because you have made a practice of posting in a manner that you felt might cause me to dislike you? You will find no post here where I said or implied anything ill of you. You will find several instances here where I complemented you.
"Death penalty for criminal punishment is NOT germane to what Tim is asking Max nor does it need to be debated on in this thread. So, am I a little more clear now?"
I disagree. It might not be germane to what Tim is asking, but it is very germane for me. I will not slip into the moral relativism of saying its OK to kill some but not others, by ignoring killings that are not gay related.
Have you shoveled your snow yet?
Max
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Max, instead of ploughing your own mighty furrow, please just listen to what is being said. Or pretend you are listening.
It isn't about an argument with Brody, fun though that is.
It is NOT about CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
It is about CLEANSING THE POPULATION OF HOMOSEXUALS.
The topics are entirely different. It is just that they both end with death.
Now we could debate this until hell freezes over, or we could do something about it. What I am not about to do myself is to get involved with any debates or campaigns about capital punishment. The topic is not the same. It does not even overlap.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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