I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733
By Brody Levesque (Washington DC) AUG 28 | There are times that I am purely just worn out by the intolerance of the religious types in the United States and elsewhere across the globe. Indeed, all things considered, the worst misery of the human condition is most often amplified and inflicted on people by religion in the name of good. Ironic? Possibly, yet I still bristle when I see reference to the LGBT community by the religious right in terms that set us apart as something of a sub-set part of the human species.
Today, I had to endure several hours worth of this nonsense as I covered the much touted "Restoring Honour" rally by conservative pundit and Fox Network News personality Glenn Beck. The speeches were annoying enough, but when coupled with the viperous crowd commentary and observations, I nearly had to run to the near-by portable toilets to vomit as these so-called pious Christians vented their vitriolic filled diatribes of so-called Christian Love. You've heard it, I'm sure, "Hate the Sin but not the Sinner," etc.?
I'm not going to rehash today's offerings as there are others who will do so and in such a way as to paint the picture of the rally more effectively.
No, I am going to cover just a small bit of the true cost of this type of intolerance based on a married conservative couple I met today, who hail from suburban Minneapolis, Minnesota. Apparently they had joined a group a month or so ago entitled 'Parents Action League' in the Anoka-Hennepin School District to fight against the so-called homosexual agenda. But, before you roll your eyes, here's the deal: This school district has had a cluster of teen suicides in this past year, including one recently in early July, that apparently has parents and kids alike polarised and squared off against each other. This couple has teens attending high school in the district and although they said its "unfortunate" that those young people killed themselves, it was unfair to blame the religious and righteous people who are simply keeping God's law and the 'normal' standards of the community that they live in.
'Normal?!' Yup, you read that correctly. Now, to understand this complex situation completely, here's the needed background in an excerpt from the Twin-Cities Star-Tribune's staff writer Andy Birkey's article, published this past Thursday, August 26th, in the Minnesota Independent News:
The woman sobbed as she told her son’s story to the Anoka-Hennepin School Board on Monday. [August 23rd, 2010] “Hi, I’m Tammy Aaberg, the mother of Justin Aaberg, who was a gay student at Anoka High School who committed suicide July 9th of this year.” The school district has become ground zero in the battle between those who want safe spaces for LGBT students and those who want any mention of homosexuality banned from high school campuses.
According to LGBT advocates, Justin’s death is one of three suicides by gay students in the last year, and while the district says it takes bullying seriously and has beefed up discipline against harassment, it has spurned invitations by LGBT groups to do anti-bullying education. To make matters more complicated, a group of parents opposed to homosexuality has formed to put pressure on the board not to bow to LGBT interests.
What I found probably most offensive in conversation with these self-identified Glenn Beck worshiping conservative Tea Party types, is that they honestly see nothing wrong and no harm in their narrow biased view of the LGBT community. This couple was no different, in fact, the husband echoed the standard mantra heard from all of the Anti-Gay forces that if this poor kid had merely sought out Christian redemption, he might have been saved. Saved???? Then he blamed the so-called Homo-advocates for trying to inject the homo lifestyle into the schools.
Let me share the pain of this kid's death from the view point of his closest friends:
"It really makes me sad that people hate other people for just loving someone. Justin was a great friend to all and the kindest person you could ever meet It kills me to know we will never get to hear or see him again. When a life is take away like this I wish people could stop and think about what they have just done. To bad it will never be like that Homophobic's are the worst of the worst and I'm just so sorry I couldn't have been there to help you if I could have done anything to help. I just really hope you are now happy and have no more pain where ever you are now Justin."
"Justinnnn.......
I can’t believe you’re gone.. I don’t understand why you would do that to yourself. You have many friends that love and care for you. You told me; I’m going to be the first singing cell-ist ever! You sounded so excited..
You told me I could sing for you while you played. You are/were amazing at playing the cello. Though you always thought you were horrible, everybody agreed. You were the best in the school. No one could have ever topped you.. You were...Incredible. Why couldn’t you have just not done it?
Not hung that rope.
Not put your neck in it.
Not to have let go."
"Rest in peace, Justin Aaberg. I fucking love you. Justin. Ugh, I miss you beyond belief. To anyone who put you through pain, who made fun of you because you were gay, anyone who made fun of you for anything, they can go rest in hell.
One of the things that scare me the most is what if you got scared? If you had last thoughts, that you didn’t want to go through with this? But you had already slipped your head through that noose and let go. What if you had tried to get out, struggled? Maybe you could’ve still been here. Why couldn’t you have been one of those people that their suicide attempts failed? You could still be here. Your bright blue eyes could still be shining, your smile could still be lighting up the darkness. But I guess you were somewhere dark, you were in a dark place nothing could have lit up. Besides wishing and hoping for you back, I hope and wishwishwish that you are now content with your beautiful, amazing self."
Justin's friends created a moving tribute to him, in the form of this video, that was posted on YouTube the day after he took his life:
As it happens, this particular school district has been in hot water before over its onerous policies regarding the treatment of LGBT people, including those who are perceived to be Gay.
The Minnesota Department of Human Rights closed a case on July 2nd of 2009, a year prior to Justin Aaberg hanging himself, in which a mother of a teen brought suit against the district as a result of the following:
Beginning with the start of the 2007-2008 school year, a male high school student in the Anoka-Hennepin School District began to experience harassment from two of the respondent's teachers, who perceived that the student was gay. A female teacher singled him out on nearly a daily basis by making jokes, comments and innuendos about her perception of his sexual orientation. "[Minor child's] fence swings both ways," "[Minor child's] boat floats in a different direction than the rest of the guys in the class" and "Would you like to have [another allegedly gay student] go with you so he can sit in the stall next to you and stomp his foot?" were among the female teacher's comments. The female teacher made her comments in front of other students and allowed them to laugh, and would share her comments with a male teacher. The male teacher would repeat, add his own jokes, and allow other students in the class to joke about the boy's perceived sexual orientation.
The Anoka Hennepin school district acknowledged that the charging party's son had been subjected to regular comments, jokes and innuendo about his perceived sexual orientation, but maintained that the district had adequately responded to the situation.
However, the two teachers incurred only minor consequences for their actions, and the student continued to be taunted by students in his school, as well as students from Andover High school. Ultimately the student was forced to transfer to a school 25 miles from home to escape the harassment.
The department found that there was sufficient evidence to establish that the school district was liable for the charging party's son being subjected to discrimination in education on the basis of sexual orientation, in violation of the Minnesota Human Rights Act. In a settlement negotiated with the Department of Human Rights, the Anoka-Hennepin school district (ISD #11) agreed:
To pay Jodi Merritt $25,000;[Mother of Minor]
To review its existing policies or develop new policies addressing its obligations under the Minnesota Human Rights Act, and submit those policies to the Commissioner of the Department of Human Rights for review and approval;
To submit training materials related to student harassment, its complaint process, and sexual orientation as a protected class for the department's approval;
To announce Minnesota Human Rights Day in its daily electronic mail to staff and on its web site, on the first Friday in December for three years.
The Anoka-Hennepin district denies that it violated the Minnesota Human Right Act (MHRA), and its settlement of this case does not constitute an admission of any liability of violating the MHRA or any other law, or of any wrongdoing.
Right, so back to last Monday where according to Birkey, a 2009 school board policy that says sexual orientation is not to be taught in the district to wit;
"Teaching about sexual orientation is not a part of the District adopted curriculum; rather, such matters are best addressed within individual family homes, churches, or community organizations. Anoka-Hennepin staff, in the course of their professional duties, shall remain neutral on matters regarding sexual orientation including but not limited to student led discussions," has now emerged as the battleground for LGBT advocates and members of the religious right.
Back to Washington D. C. today and this couple on the national mall listening to affirmation from Beck and others that its okay essentially to be full of 'Christian' love for the LGBT community along with Democrats, Liberals, the Media, and others...
How does this play out I asked. Where do you draw the line? After all your community has now had at least three Gay kids take their own lives over this issue. The wife echoed the sentiments and philosophy of the Parents Action League:
"PAL wants the district to “respect traditional family values” and to “provide valid resources for students (and their families) struggling with sexual identity and/or same-sex attraction.” It seeks to “ensure that all health curriculum teach healthy sexuality and promote abstinence until marriage.”
The group also wants the district to “promote the Day of Truth” each year." Birkey notes:
"The Parents Action League also has concerns about the district. It bemoans a “lack of resources and assistance for those students seeking to leave the homosexual lifestyle” and “an increase in pro-gay curriculum materials and resources used in our schools.”
The group is also concerned about “the health risks to students who are affirmed and labeled as ‘gay’ and who may participate in homosexual acts” and “the pro-gay activist teachers who fail to abide by district policies and use their classroom to promote their personal agendas.”
As I was finishing my interview, I had to ask them, why does this matter so much? Why single out people that just simply want to find love for themselves? Interestingly, they didn't have an answer and thankfully, didn't quote the so-called 'good book' in defence at me.
On a final note, when I visited the website of the PAL, today when I got back to my office after the rally and was doing some research, this is what I found:
Location: Canada
Registered: December 2003
Messages: 869
... needs to be heard, regardless of their origin; and resoundingly so; in all Media, in all seats of Governance, in all Community Centres, Clubs and Fraternal Organizations, in all Churches, Synagogues, Mosques and Temples, in all Institutions of higher learning, in all Health Centres, in Libraries, wherever people gather; and not specifically because of their anti-LGBTQ agenda either; but, rather because they all, in one fashion or another, advocate the abrogation (and/or suspension) thereof individual universal human rights and dignity, this apparently being in aid, and the name, of us all returning to (and embracing) their widely touted "Family Values" or "Community Standards" or "Societal Norms".
In the early 1970's, I attended several gatherings at the "People's Church" here in Toronto, this being at the behest of my then mistress Greer and her devotion to the newly emerging "Born-again" movement sweeping North America. Lordy, what an eye-opener if there ever was one. I quickly beat a hasty retreat, never again to cross their, or any others', threshold again.
Flash-forward ten years and "Town-hall" meetings of the Peel, Durham and York Region and Metropolitan Toronto School Boards in the late 1980's that both my business partner and I attended out of our desire to get a handle on what these zealots espoused, and in particular what their agenda represented. My company (which serviced specifically Non-profit Agencies, Non-governmental Organizations and Government Services and Crown Corporations) had been approached repeatedly to undertake surveys on their behalf, with my business partner leaning heavily towards taking their money, and I not; this being one of the few times in our twenty-year history together that we were ever in discord about a proposed client, even those representing the very few Consumer Clients and Projects that we undertook over the course of our association. The meetings in York Region, and the last of those we attended, were a wake-up call, if ever there was one, for both he and I; both of us reared as traditional, and practicing, Roman Catholics; he heterosexual; I homosexual; he, the public face of our enterprise and the glad-hander and presenter; I, the facilitator or the nuts and bolts, if you will.
On the agenda that early summer evening:
A call for the return of mandatory daily school prayer, and a weekly religious (read Christian) course of study, with attendance in these (to be held) weekly classes required by all students in order for them to be granted their matriculation.
To say the community was equally divided on this issue would be in error; likely less than 10% of those attending the meeting were pro-prayer adherents, but you would never have known this from the proceedings.
In each and every case when someone stepped forward to speak against the motion, they were shouted down by the pro-prayer acolytes, all holding a bible in one hand and a cross in the other, all screening at the top of their voices, "Heretic", until they had, in turn cowled and subdued each and everyone of the neigh-sayers. Thankfully the motion failed to pass; but, my business partner had done a complete turn-about, taking a diametrically opposed position, and remarking to me as we left the hall, "Not in my lifetime. We won't be taking their money."
What these freaks had failed to take into account, when proposing their newfangled return to "Family Values" were the demographics of either the Region itself, or of the students attending the Schools within the district.
Fully less than 40% of the families residing within the Region, and as a result, the students attending the schools, embraced Pan-Abraham religious doctrines; less than 50% of the families were Caucasian; with less then 30% of that sub-set of families claiming English as their mother-tongue. How in hell, in anyone's right mind, these fanatics thought they should, and could, impose their brand of Christianity on the whole is a mystery; but they tried, and have done so repeatedly; and continue to do so today; and likely will continue to do so in future. Vigilance is a "free" society's only weapon against them; and vigilant we must be; always!
The aforementioned occurred, is occurring, and will continue to occur, in School Boards right across the land; if not regarding the subject of School Prayer and religious studies, it will be, and is, about "Family Values" or "Societal Norms" or whatever catch-phrase they adopt for their narrowly defined schemata of their perfect (and just) society.
Shortly after these meetings occurred the CRTC (Canadian Radio and Television Commission) ruled (in a completely separate, but equally watershed initiative) that all religious programming on public broadcast was to be very narrowly regulated, and defined, forcing Crossroads Communications, The Christian Broadcast Network, the Praise The Lord Club, and a host of others just like them, from public airwaves in Canada, and relegating them to specialty "Cable-access Only" Channels, and Networks they themselves owned and operated. Equal access was granted (and guaranteed) to all religious endeavours; but only if they complied with the CRTC rules of governance respecting their behaviour; in the stoke of a pen, gone were the six and seven hours daily, simultaneously across a dozen or more public broadcast channels, of Christian "1-800 Dial-A-Prayer" religious indoctrination, with a return to consumer choice in their television entertainment. "Begging" organizations (regardless of their religious affiliation), have been, and are currently being, regulated under the same provisions of the CRTC, thus guaranteeing that consumers are not inflicted with hours , ad nausea, of the "Tears and Dollars-For-Fears" programming that had been de rigeur (and the bread and butter) of late-night public broadcast schedules in the late 1980's and early 1990's here in Canada.
In Canada, there is now, and must be in the future, a complete separation between Church (or Synagogue, or Mosque, or Temple) and State in the governance of the daily affairs of its' citizens.
This same truism should be held by all Nations and Peoples of the World, and it's a time whose time has surely come, whether it be respecting LGBTQ issues, or Women's and Children's rights, Fellowship, Human Dignity and Equal Justice before the Law, by all.
The "Religion Nazis" frankly scare the living be-jesus out of me; they should everyone; regardless of whatever faith they hold to be their own.
This is one topic that you Brody, and I, will always be in complete agreement.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
Location: U.S.
Registered: November 2009
Messages: 630
I have a good deal of empathy for a man whose job requires him to sit down with charlitans and fools such as those portrayed in this posting. I am sure Brody that you would much rather have been sipping white wine and rubbing elbows up in Martha's Vineyard this past Saturday. Anything but Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin.
But that is not the point of my response. The tragedy of Justin Aaberg is so compelling I shed a tear. For where will the gay world be without our bright and wonderful youth?
Perhaps the taunts of his fellow students was too much, perhaps the response of the school administration was too rare, perhaps nothing...this boy was driven to the edge and pushed off because of uncaring adults.
He suffered too much and we all let him down. The damned Glenn Becks of this world could never look at this tragedy and feel the shame as I do. I want to bang my head against the wall and ask what else I could have done, what can any of us do? I was not there, I didn't know Justin, but I would have tried to save him from his demons.
God is an invention of man. Man was not made in God's image, God was created and used by man to bring fear into the hearts of belivers so that they would follow blindly into the night and surrender their free will along with all the cash. I would not wish that God on Justin, he deserves better.
I am sad for his friends and hope that they didn't withhold information that he was contemplating suicide. Unfortunately this is often the case, but I hope not here. Any parent who continually lobbies a school administration about the bullying of their child deserves a day in court and a forum far broader than Glenn Beck.
There is no God in America, but we do seem to have a monopoly on evil.
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1560
Brody Levesque wrote:
> By Brody Levesque (Washington DC) AUG 28 | There are times that I am purely just worn out by the intolerance of the religious types in the United States and elsewhere across the globe.
I think that should read "some religious types": you appear entirely ignorant of the very many people who are active in causes of diversity and equality precisely because their religious beliefs impel them to be so.
For a wordsmith, you're distressingly casual about your use of language, and for an activist you're distressingly casual about persistently alienating those with whom you claim common cause.
Such gross inaccuracies completely undermine (for me) the possibility of engaging in or respecting most of your posts, because it's clear that your bigotry over-rides any desire for accuracy. How can I trust what you post?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733
Once again the stuffy old gentleman's club has weighed in without any clue as to the reality of life for Gay & Lesbian folk here in the United States.
You don't even remotely understand just how bad it as you are pontificating from the relatively safe shelter of Britain where your rights are protected by law.
Rather than accept that teens KILL themselves because of the extreme environment of the so-called Christan right's diatribe and theocratic political maneuvering... You two old irrelevant clowns would rather launch Ad Hominem attacks on me because you don't like an opinionated journalist.
I am SO over being polite to you two as you are more interested in attacking me than discussing the material I present AND the impact it has on LGBT folk. You want civil treatment from me, you two clowns need to reign in the stuffy shit.
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367
There is a lot of bad blood here. But that is beside the point. Brody, even though they were couched in (for you) annoying terms the comments that NW made should be addressed not belittled and dismissed. That is the essence of a cultured debate - which is what this forum should be. You have much that you can contribute to our understanding of the situation in the USA - things that we would not hear from any other source - but that does not mean that you can just dismiss the rest of us as ignorant fools. I can assure you that we are not.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367
acam wrote:
And BTW there is no god. Not just in America but anywhere.
Anthony, stop and think for a moment and you will come to see that what you have written is foolish. Had what you wrote been expressed as your belief I would have respected that. But to state as a fact what cannot be verified now or ever is the height of foolishness. John Stuart Mill warned us that even if one man in the whole world holds to a certain opinion it has the right to be entertained as possible - and a lot more than just one man do have the opinion that there is a God. Your beliefs - like mine - are not infallible. Should you not respect their right to their belief even when you do not share it; nay, particularly when you do not share it?
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733
In all due respect JFR, those two plus a couple more see fit to shoot the messenger rather than evaluate and discuss/debate the message.
I am only TOO aware of how I am being addressed sir and the belittling starts with the old boys club, not me. Thus my remarks/response remains the same.
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1560
Bigotry, name-calling and intolerance can be displayed as much by one side of the religious issue as by the other. We're both guilty of that - no doubt we would both plead provocation.
HOWEVER
I think it's simply not acceptable for you to continually betray any reasonable standards of conduct (including journalistic ethics: and, yes, that is a direct ad-hominem statement) by ramming your own views about equality of treatment on the issues of gender identity and sexual orientation while grossly insulting and alienating those who are working towards equality of treatment for everyone, regardless of age, gender, sexuality, religion, disability or geography.
My experience with those in their teens who have tried - and in one case succeeded - in taking their own life because they were left unsupported, is on record here and elsewhere.
Let me make it plain. If you continue to fail to recognise the diversity of views among "the religious", to post sloppy, professionally inept and unconsidered attacks on "the religious", and to fail to recognise any virtue in diversity, I will continue to consider your posts meaningless drivel, and to source my news through reliable channels (such as Pink News).
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Location: US/Canada
Registered: September 2009
Messages: 733
Walk a Mile In my shoes Nick... HERE, in the United States, NOT Britain, and then argue the merits of equality for all..Wake Up. What about Uganda? Who the hell do you think exported religious hate to there????
You don't like my drivel? Fine, then don't read it. As far as professional? Right, and you've been a journalist how long? You have NO standing to critique my work on that level at all.
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1560
Fair enough.
For some time, there's been an atmosphere here that some people are favoured, that some views are favoured, that there is a "right way of being gay", and that other views and minorities can go fuck themselves.
As I don't happen to agree with that sentiment, this is probably no longer a useful place for me to visit.
Thanks to all my friends here for a good five years - do keep in touch elsewhere.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Dear JFR,
I'm sorry if I have offended you but I really don't think my stance on existence/non-existence of god is any more extreme than yours or any priest's.
I suppose it is a weakness to be willing to assert what one cannot prove, but I'm not alone, you know. I don't see it as more foolish to deny a statement that is beyond proof that it would be to assert it. I suspect I'm greatly outnumbered by the people that assert the unproveable and that a great many people who might support me are dissuaded from doing so by the pressure of a society where priests and churches still have a considerable influence.
And when they make their assertions (and they do - like my friend who says every word in the bible is true and that, by the way I will be going to hell!) it seems to me that my refusal to believe is no more extreme than their injunctions to pray and that saying 'there is no god' is no stronger a contradiction of their position than theirs is of my position.
And what makes you think I don't respect them? I think I do. If they have a right to their belief then, presumably I have a right to mine. I believe that prosyletism is not part of the jewish faith, so perhaps I should be careful to avoid 'antiproselytism' when conversing with jews, but that is unusual and this place [Bristol - or indeed England!] is full of people who knock on my door and try to convert me.
Love,
Anthony
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1560
Moderator wrote:
> These personal comments MUST be moved to private email. This bickering is spoiling the forum for all of us. I shall not warn again.
Having taken several hours to cool down and reflect on this, I'm rather perturbed by the moderator's inability to distinguish between bickering and bullying.
Let's be open about it.
For one reason or another, there are words that are deeply offensive to some people. Perhaps we don't understand why. Perhaps they don't offend us - whether or not we're members of the groups referred to by the name. But if "A Place of Safety" has any meaning whatsoever - and that's rapidly becoming debatable, despite the explicit "Netiquette" posted - it is that no-one here is bullied, that no-one is allowed to get away with bullying behaviour.
I don't give a rat's arse whether the word is
"kike"
"fag"
"brit"
"nigger"
or
"wop".
Once it has been explained that the word is deeply offensive to some of the people it is used about, continued use of it is bullying.
In this case, a detailed explanation of the origin of the offensiveness of "Brit" was given by a third party here, and attention has been called on several occasions to the continued use of it. That makes Brody a bully, by any reasonable definition.
As for his war on anyone who has any "religious" inclination, that's his look-out. As posted elsewhere, it flies in the face of the evidence. That's irrelevant, I suppose. What is not irrelevant is that persistently and irrationally refusing to recognise any good done by anyone who is "religious" makes this place uncomfortable - at present, impossible - for any such person to visit. And driving people away is - undoubtedly - bullying. Enough people have left here, enough people have contacted me, to be very sure that this is the case.
Nor is such bullying at all helpful to any kid struggling to reconcile their sexual orientation with a religious upbringing. And it's pretty sure that it's kids from a religious background who are likely to have the most difficulty coming to terms with being gay ... anyone who's been here for more than a couple of years will know this.
A place of safety? Once, and perhaps it will be again. But I no longer feel either safe or welcome here, and that causes me some heartache.
[Updated on: Mon, 30 August 2010 21:17]
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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When Does The Hate & Insanity End? 
Re: When Does The Hate & Insanity End? 
Ad Hominem Attacks Again By the Stuffy Brit Old Boys Club 
Re: Bigotry, name-calling and intolerance ... 
