I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
It’s more than two years since I stopped posting here, and I did not intend to return. Though I didn’t know it at the time, I was on the verge of a life-threatening medical crisis which has kept me out of circulation for most of the intervening period. I am at last returning to what (for me) approximates to normality, and idle curiosity led me back to a number of sites which I used to frequent under a variety of identities. I first re-visited APOS six or eight weeks ago, and was very sad to see how much it had changed, and even sadder to see the speed at which it is continuing to move away from its roots. I doubt whether it can survive unless it changes direction radically.
So why am I posting now? Well, I’ve been away for a considerable time, and that probably allows me to form a more objective view than might have been the case if I had continued as a regular poster. It seems to me that change is necessary for survival, and I very much hope that APOS survives not just in the short or medium term but for many years to come. It was for years far the best-conducted forum for insecure gays of all sorts and conditions – even, at times, for both sexes. From personal knowledge I know that it has helped a huge number of people, from young guys confused by their emerging orientation to long-time closet residents finding it more and more difficult to deny their true selves. It really did feel like a place of safety, where anyone could talk about their fears and problems – knowing that whatever they had to say would be heard sympathetically and answered constructively. Timmy cannot be thanked enough for creating and maintaining this unique haven.
This is a very long post, but I was never one for brevity – as some of you will no doubt remember! I’ll try to analyse the problems I think everyone here needs to address, and – as ever – I’ll try to explain how I have arrived at my conclusions. Before I start, it might be as well to explain my world view. After a long period of agnosticism, I am now firmly in the atheist camp. I arrived there after years of exploring world religions and creation myths, concluding that as pretty much every human grouping which survived beyond prehistory (and no doubt many which did not) had developed its own interpretation of its origin and place in the cycles of time, it was clearly something which was a basic requirement in the social development of mankind. That being so, I cannot see any reason to choose the creation myth of a small middle-eastern Bronze Age tribe in preference to any other. I have no zeal to campaign against religion per se, it brings comfort to a lot of good people; on the other hand, I very strongly oppose some of its specific doctrines and I object to its preferential status in today’s society. Politically, I’m a fairly left-wing socialist, except where theories lose sight of practical realities – as for example in education and the in obsession with multiculturalism in preference to integration. So that’s where I stand.
It seems to me that the most obvious change here has been a significant move from the expression of individual opinions on the events of the day to the regurgitation of second-hand views by providing links to information posted elsewhere. That diminishes and sterilises this discussions. There are many other gay news sites, most offering some kind of comment facility. Those who are news junkies can visit for themselves; this forum (though occasional links have always been provided) was a place for more thoughtful comment – if you like, the equivalent of a conversation between friends. The two approaches are clearly incompatible. APOS cannot compete as a news site among the better-funded commercial and semi-commercial institutions, nor does it need to. But it can provide a place within which friends can voice their own thoughts and develop their own views.
Concurrently with this change, the increased focus on gay issues has largely squeezed out the ‘ordinary’ topics which were once an important part of the mix. Applying the same analogy with conversation, this was a place where gay friends (and anyone who joined in was automatically treated as a friend) could talk about anything and everything. The gay dimension was always there, but we discussed all manner of other things, too.
I suspect that this recent trend has to some extent been driven by Timmy’s wish to encourage campaigning zeal. With respect, I don’t think that this is the place for it. The results are clear to see – far too much of the current traffic is negative, and negativity by its very nature does not engender any sense of community. Not everyone feels the soapbox urge. That doesn’t mean that they don’t support the continuing moves to outlaw all forms of discrimination. Change comes by winning hearts and minds; by changing the views of those with the power and influence to implement the changes we seek. Anyone who has studied the progress of the gay agenda in the UK must realise that over the years much more has been achieved by dedicated and well-organised backroom campaigners than by in-yer-face protesters in the Peter Tatchell mould. The UK is backward in some respects, but our legal protection is among the best in the world. Yelling (vocally or in print) at your MP or equivalent representative, or interrupting his or her public appearances, is unlikely to garner support, but reasoned correspondence, based on the assumption that he (or she) ‘may not be fully aware of the depth of the problem’, can work well. Not every time, and not with every MP, but it can and does get results. The effect of street protest – in the UK, at any rate – is limited; its one useful function is to keep an issue in the public mind, but Gay Pride events do this just as effectively while attracting little or no negative reaction. But, in truth, the real progress is made by those who pursue the cause moderately but persuasively. Even Gay Pride probably does more for the self-assurance and personal development of those who take part than it does for the advancement of the wider cause – but that is in itself a hugely worthwhile achievement.
So, in summary, I would suggest that active protest and campaigning in this forum has little or no positive effect but is very, very damaging to the sense of community which was once the unique characteristic of APOS.
Moving on to the US fundamentalist right, I despise almost everything about it. I have my own views about the reasons, but I cannot imagine that the separation of Church and State in today’s America bears much relationship to the vision of those who first introduced the principle. US citizens are much preoccupied with freedom, but they enjoy less freedom than they think. How can Church and State be separate when so many vote as their religious leadership decrees? Is the Church truly separate from the State when laws are enacted compelling large swathes of the population to comply with purely religious concepts of morality? True freedom of speech is just as strongly protected in the UK by tradition and custom as it is in the US by the Constitution; overt hate speech is outlawed here, because the freedom of the subject of the hatred is also protected, but there is no censorship of opinion.
APOS is not a US site; it is a UK-based site with a world-wide message. Every reasonable individual with feel sympathy with our gay US brothers who are faced with so much hatred and bigotry, but there is very little that most of us can do to help in any practical way. We know it’s happening; it’s reported here as well, particularly in the so-called ‘quality’ press. But, frankly, the constant stream of invective on the forum has become more than tedious. And, speaking of invective, surely we should make some attempt to hold the moral high ground? I doubt whether any regular visitor to APOS has any sympathy with the hate-induced outpourings of the homophobics, but is anything achieved by responding in kind, day after day? If all we do is compete with them in the severity and unpleasantness of the insults we express, we simply bring ourselves down to their level.
Let’s briefly look at the post about Ken Mehlman. That generated a shedload of sheer hatred. Me, I knew I was gay and maybe a little bit bi) before puberty, and from around 14 to my late 20s my sex life was varied, interesting and exclusively gay. But I was a child of my times, and like so many of my contemporaries I eventually married. I’m fairly sure I did it for the wrong reasons, but it worked out better than I could have ever have hoped for, and watching my kids grow was undoubtedly the highlight of my life. The point is, that although I knew who I was and I came from a non-religious background, I was still subject to contemporary influences. Now think of Mehlman. No doubt he grew up in a strong Republican environment, with all the religious taboos that implies. Like so many in that situation, he was probably brainwashed into repressing his gay orientation. Like so many in that situation, he was probably brainwashed in the Republican tradition. In adult life he became a successful Republican politician. I despise his politics, but I accept that he saw things differently. I can see no compelling evidence to suggest that he was actively homophobic; in fact the accounts I have read suggest the opposite. Homophobia may well be endemic among Republicans, but that doesn’t mean that all Republicans are homophobes. And however much you may hate his party, he is not personally responsible for the death of any American soldier. The Middle Eastern conflicts were supported by other states, and not exclusively by right-wing parties. So he eventually comes out of the closet he has occupied for so long. No doubt he will suffer for doing so – more than many self-proclaimed out-proud gays have suffered. Why all the vitriol? Maybe you feel the need to reserve judgement until his future actions become clearer. Maybe you don’t feel the urge to shake his hand. But only a fool would drive away someone who has such potential to advance the gay cause. There is more joy in Heaven over one sinner that repenteth ....
The language used against this guy has no place in any civilised debate.
So, the three suggestions so far –
• If you have something to say, say it in your own words. Use links sparingly, and never include a link (especially a You Tube link) without saying something about why you’re posting it – even if it’s just because the subject is sexually attractive! Think of the forum as a place for exchanging ideas, not for ramming your own opinions down reluctant throats.
• Don’t be carried away by campaigning zeal.
• Don’t resort to hate speech – it’s unpleasant and unnecessary. Always.
I seriously believe that, taken together, these suggestions could help to rebuild the sense of community which has all but disappeared. They might also help to bring back a younger element. I don’t think that a forum like this can specifically aim to attract young posters; in fact – taking account of the present age profile – that might be seen as a questionable objective. On the other hand, I don’t accept that all young people are exclusively attracted to sites designed for their own age group. Many of those who came here found the site by surfing and were attracted by the friendly atmosphere, which made them feel welcome, and able to express their views and concerns on an equal footing with any other poster. I know this is true because some of them told me so. If this seems a friendly and welcoming place, new generations will continue to find it and use it. Now ask yourself whether the current crop of posts could reasonably be described as attractive to anyone.
OK, I’m nearly finished. What about the moderation of the forum? Well, my own view is that the idea of a ‘mystery moderator’ has little to commend it. If the forum is to regain what it has lost, the moderator needs to be fair but firm and, above all, to be respected. It’s difficult to feel respect for someone hidden by a cloak of anonymity.
There’s another important aspect, too, and one about which I have disagreed with Timmy in the past. We have all – I hope – felt derision for school authorities who insist on punishing both parties to a confrontation equally. Why should the victim be treated in the same way as the bully, when all he did was attempt to defend himself? Such an approach is virtually an endorsement of bullying. It isn’t acceptable in the school context, and it shouldn’t be acceptable here.
It’s been suggested that if a poster makes offensive remarks to another, the recipient should simply ignore what has been said. The argument is that a response will simply exacerbate the problem, whereas ignoring the remarks will eventually encourage the offender to cease offending. That isn’t the way the world works. There’s no evidence to suggest that being ignored improves behaviour, but plenty of evidence to suggest that recipients are hurt by such behaviour and may be discouraged from participating in the forum, or even driven away. By extension, allowing bad behaviour to continue can destroy the forum.
That is not to say that there is anything wrong with disagreements; differences of opinion are the seasoning which makes for enjoyable debate. It’s perfectly possible to disagree in a civilised manner without directing insults towards the other party.
In short, the forum is much more important than any of its individual members, and if it is to regain its past lustre in needs to be firmly protected from further damage.
I could say more, but you’ll be overjoyed to discover that you are fast approaching the end. I hope everyone who has read thus far will think seriously about the situation and will post a response agreeing or disagreeing with all or selected parts of what I’ve tried to say. I’ve included some bits specifically to try to provoke different views. The whole objective of the post is to generate discussion about the welfare of the forum instead of the interminable succession of negative issues which has been characteristic of recent weeks.
I repeat – Timmy established a wonderful resource which helped and was enjoyed by a huge number of people, including me. I think it’s worth fighting for.
And finally – no, I haven’t lost my sense of humour. I just don’t think that what is happening here is at all funny.
[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2010 02:34]
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Dear Cossie,
Thank you for that very positive contribution. It makes your return doubly welcome.
I agree that links without explanation why they are cited are to be deprecated - but there have been one or two that didn't need explanation.
I agree with you that campaigning and self-revealing personal conversation are incompatible.
Some of us do our best not to be rude. The trouble is that some other people have sensitivities that are upset by a straightforward explanation of my opinions. We also need to let some things wash over us.
It's quite a long time since I remember anyone confessing to a weakness on here or asking whether other people have the same problem.
May I make another suggestion? If your post leaves any doubt about who it is a reply to or whose opinions you are seeking (or commenting on) it would help if you made it clear by beginning Dear someone or otherwise identifying the post you're talking about.
Love,
Anthony
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
Replying is why the threads are indented. It is done to make it as obvious as mechanically possible that you are replying to the person under whose thread you are posting. It's also why the word "reply" is present when one replies.
Oddly this is "old style", a threaded forum. We kept it this way because it is easier to track the replies. If we had opted for a more modern style we could have used more modern software.
So it is up to the person who replies to reply in the correct place, or, when the reply is actually more general than that, to say so.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
In general the threads where each happens are distinct threads. Even when they are not, I cannot see how it can be said that they are incompatible.
I do not like my purple tattoo. I reveal that I have one. I choose to campaign against it. There is no incompatibility.
I like sex with bananas, and reveal this. Sex with bananas is prohibited. I choose to campaign to allow sex with bananas. There is no incompatibility.
How did people campaign for the age of sexual consent to be lowered? How did people campaign for homosexuality to be legalised? By no means all of these were altruistic folk who did it for someone else.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
I am interested in your suggestions. I will not, at least at this stage, comment on them individually or together. For now I will confine myself to asking after your health?
Glad to see your name pop up here Cossie after wondering for so long what had happened to you.
Some excellent thoughts in your post (even if it was a bit long winded)
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
I happily accept all of your comments.
No-one can do the right thing all the time - we aren't built that way. All we can do is try to avoid upsetting others and to apologise when we fail. The problems arise when the legitimate feelings and views of others are disregarded or denigrated without the courtesy of considered discussion.
As regards your closing suggestion, Timmy has already commented on the workings of the indentation system. In this case, though, I was starting a new thread, and I was attempting to engage everyone. I hoped to encourage real debate about what those who come here want from the site. I really do think this place is - or was - unique, and shying away from the current issues could well result in the loss of something extremely valuable.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
I'm not arguing the relative merits of campaigning anf self-revelation; both have an important place in the scheme of things.
My point is simply that each generates its own atmosphere; one is an extrovert activity, the other is very much the opposite. A political rally is not the place one would choose to bare one's soul. Self-revelation is something that most people find very difficult; it takes time to build up the courage to do it. If the forum is to serve effectively as a place where self-revelation and development can happen, it needs to exude the atmosphere of tolerance and trust for which it was renowned.
Simply talking about current issues needn't upset this atmosphere, but no-holds-barred campaign-speak blows it out of the window. At least, that's my view, and I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
I think the worst is now behind me.
I've suffered for years from a hormone imbalance (no rude comments, please!). Back in 2008 I had a fairly major and unexpected heart attack. I survived and had some heart surgery, but the drugs prescribed for that reacted with those for the hormone imbalance, and I've had almost two years of violent mood swings between irrational elation and deep depression - mostly the latter. That, I hope everyone will understand, meant effective withdrawal from normal life.
The medics seem to have at last got to grips with the problem, and so long as I inhale a complete pharmacy every day I am slowly getting back to normal, though I tend to be tired most of the time. But at least I'm alive, and I have no plans to change that anytime soon!
As regards the header post, I'd just like to stress again that I'm not claiming to know it all - I don't know the half of it! - but I wanted to provoke some sort of exchange of opinions. This place always meant a great deal to me.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
Well of course I am - it's a national characteristic. And what's more, my windiness is a lot longer since the doc forbade my large daily ration of Highland Malt!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Location: New Zealand
Registered: August 2009
Messages: 317
It's all good, but we're not upside down - you lot are!
Sorry to hear of your health problems but good you're on top of it now and so good to see you back! Aussie is wrong, your post was not long-winded - it was a bit short if anything.
I agree with everything you said about the Forum and would just add this - with all due respect, incessant preaching on the one theme, no matter how worthy, can be a bit like this :
cheers
Commas matter - 'Party on Dudes' is not the same as 'Party on, Dudes'
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
The header post will, presumably, take carte of itself
Health is far more important.
I suppose heart attacks do tend to be unexpected, you know, but the deep depression is a bit of a bugger. Come to that the elation must have felt equally bizarre. I know a minor part of that experience from painkillers I need to take from time to time.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
Indeed that is the reason for different threads and the indented nature of the layout. (and that also shows that the greater thrust of my remark, which you are wholly entitled to answer as you have, was addressed to acam).
Nothing is barred here.
That also means that everything is encouraged.
It is up to the poster to decide what is appropriate in a thread and what is not. And posters may subdivide threads ad lib. This thread at the top had very little place for enquiries about your health, for example, but those are neatly quasi-fenced off from the remainder.
We chose not to run those 'multiple discussion forum' layouts because they are so confusing. We decided instead to allow our users the delightful freedom of expression that we get here.
Mostly, a campaign and a self revelation in the same thread are unlikely bedfellows. But that is 'mostly'.
Location: U.S.A.
Registered: April 2007
Messages: 907
Welcome back Cossie.
I no longer pull up this forum everyday as I did in the past. Luckily I did so just the day after you posted. So, I sharpened my quill to provide you with the reasoned debate and expression of divergent view you asked for. The problem is that I couldn't find anything to disagree with in your post. So, I guess the best I can offer is, 'I agree'.
I miss the old board. I miss you and Deej and those kids who would honestly express feelings openly and expect meaningful feedback. There was a trust here that allowed you to be open and put the laundry out to air.
I honestly didn't know how the board had changed to turn me more into a lurker than a respondent. I just generally became to feel uncomfortable about responding to posts that didn't have a 'safe' feel to them. Thank you for having the foresight and the intelligence to illuminate those changes that have resulted in this new APOS.
Though you may feel I'm wasting my time, I'm going to say a prayer for your continued good health. And I hope you continue to air your views. I've missed you.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
Trouble is, Aussie, that wonderful as Arbroath Smokies are (together, of course, with anything else remotely Caledonian), even the thought of them reninds me of the exceedingly painful surgical removal of the Highland Malt bottle which had been attached to my right hand since birth.
In the interests of sanity, I guess I'd better stick to Craster Kippers!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
Hi, Nigel how's things in the British mid-West?
Your message was opportune - it prompted me to check my hotmail address, and I've established that it went belly-up while I was ill, presumably through lack of use.
I've created a new address - newcossie@hotmail.com (not very original, I have to admit!) - and I've updated my profile here.
Hugs!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
Hi. Paul!
Thanks for your kind remarks.
I'm not the kind of atheist who rejects prayers, though we will differ as to the manner in which they may work. In fact, there is much about my longish association with the Anglican (Episcopalian) Church which I remember with affection. As an English-language junkie, I love the phrasing of much of the King James Bible and the 1662 Prayer Book, and still sometimes attend 'retro' services just to hear it again in its intended setting. The 'modern' translations are simply not in the same league.
I suppose that I belong to the Richard Dawkins school of atheism. I find it impossible to accept the validity of the Christian (or any other) God, or the concept of an afterlife, but I don't have any animosity towards those who see things differently. I don't see religion as being inherently damaging in itself, though I abhor the evil which so many do in its name.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
] 
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