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I've been watching you play a game of semantics with Tim and shaking my head in disbelief.
What part of a war on Gay people worldwide do you both not understand?
Here's two examples that have NOTHING to do with the United States:
HUNGARY- "Heterosexual Pride" Parade Marches Through Budapest
Calling it a "heterosexual pride parade," about 100 skinheads and their supporters marched through Budapest this weekend to highlight their demand that the local government deny homosexuals the right to use the city's public spaces.
The participants addressed a petition to two MPs of the radical nationalist Jobbik party, Dora Duro and Elod Novak, who attended the march, which asks for a modification of Hungary's law of assembly to prevent such [gay] gatherings. The MPs assured the marchers of their support. This year the Gay Pride Parade was held on July 10 along Budapest's Andrassy Boulevard on a shortened route compared to earlier years and amid heavy police protection. The event, organised each year since 1997, has been disrupted by violent anti-gay radicals in each of the past three years.
****
Now, here's something else that REALLY makes the point as to how the opposition sees LGBT folk and the "war" on us:
****
BULGARIA- Orthodox Bishop Hands Out Medals For Opposing LGBT Rights
An Orthodox bishop in Bulgaria has awarded his diocese's highest honor to two men for "defending Christianity" against Satanic homosexuals. The medals went to a local mayor and prosecutor who are behind an attempt to outlaw any public expression of homosexuality such as hand-holding or gay pride parades.
"There is something called public morality. The society is not obliged to watch how somebody is sticking into its eyes their own travesty, and to watch how somebody is destroying the souls of our children, and pours poison into the very idea about the sanctity of the bond between a man and a woman that forms a family. The task of the Orthodox Church assigned by our God Jesus Christ himself, is to protect the moral and ethical principles of scripture. The job of the church is to condemn the devil when he tries to destroy this holy order," declared Bishop Nikolay upon bestowing the medals.
He reminded that in June the Holy Synod of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church denounced the Sofia Pride gay parade.
The Bulgarian capital of Sofia has staged small pride parades for the last three years under the heavy protection of national riot police.
****
Here's the POINT.... Any visitor here, including all age demographics by the way, need more than just a shoulder to cry on. They need to be ENGAGED!
Its all fine and dandy to have affirmation but they also need to be informed and to have a firm grounding of their world [LGBT] with like minded folk. There is serious value to that.
This silly game of; "lets play with words," detracts from the realities. [edited. t]
[Updated on: Tue, 07 September 2010 20:00] by Moderator |
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... right up to the last line; and therein lies your own undoing.
A great post, by the way; riveting one might even say; and informative.
A "link" or two to the news items you featured with which we might follow on with might have been well in order; but, that is subjective, as should we really be interested, you've provided enough information with which to conduct a search.
However, your closing ... not really necessary ... or prudent.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
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I am beginning to believe the world is becomming polarized over the issue of gay rights. We all know that in some places the level of LGBT tolerance is moderated by intelligent thinking. Countries like England and Ireland have an intelligent society where harsh feelings about LGBT issues do not dissolve in to mass murder and a declaration of war on that segment of its people. What is happening in Uganda needs no further explanation, they are the other side of the coin.
Countries like Hungary and Bulgaria have a recent history of intolerance, spawned by Communism. This was assured by a lack of education and knowledge that was crafted by the government as a means of control. And now that religious institutions are back in favor they have picked up the sword that is being used against the LBGT population.
But this all to say that the spread of war, oppression, struggle...whatever you wish to call it doesn't matter because it is spreading and that should be our biggest fear. This whole train of thought has me reading globally on the issue as I research the trend. I have attached the link to a rather long blog posting of some great importance because of its organization and clarity.
http://erchuud.blogspot.com/2010/02/upr.html
You may think that Mongolia is just a small piece of Asia but their issues are our issues and we must not forget this is an example of what Brody is saying, the war, crisis, fight, struggle, oppression is global.
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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There are three people I agree with in this post so far, Brody. I agree with you except for your last sentence. In that AIi agree with Warren. It would be better removed.
Acam and Cossie are entitled to an insular or pedantic view. I wonder if they recognise that they marginalise themselves by taking that position, and devalue their own arguments. I'm sure they are as gay as anyone, whatever that really means. I suppose it's to do with being primarily interested in shagging blokes in the context of this forum.
I also agree with Chris.
In agreeing I am not joining the 'Oh well said, Oscar, I wish I'd said that' brigade which has reared its head recently. I simply use it as a shorthand to avoid restating the points.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Perhaps Tim & Warren maybe I should have said that those two sounded like Neville "We'll have peace in our time" Chamberlain? By all means lets appease Herr Hilter, oh excuse me, make that Herr Christofascist.
Lets give up another slice of our freedoms only because bleating on a private forum makes no difference?
I don't buy that Tim. You DO remind me of dear old Winnie though......
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Neville managed to delay things a little. There is an argument that suggests that the delay he achieved allowed us to win.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Brody Levesque wrote:
(snip)
> Lets give up another slice of our freedoms only because bleating on a private forum makes no difference?
Bleating on a forum does indeed make no difference whatsoever, and I'm at a complete loss as to why you persist.
What does make a difference - a very considerable difference - is pointing out on a forum specific areas of action about specific threats, and encouraging others to take similar or related action. I know a bit about this - I've been doing it since the age of twelve, when I was a vocal advocate of the 1967 English Act which initially decriminalised homosexual activity for those aged over 21 in private ... and continue to do it 43 years later.
There's little point indulging oneself in self-righteous indignation. Action is required, and concerted action is best. And my evidence for this? Precisely that global perspective that timmy and youself accuse other of lacking. To put it crudely, we in England (and increasingly in the rest of the UK) enjoy the freedoms we do, because we have focussed our efforts. Focussed efforts have also made a significant difference at an international level - from a curtailment of the initial proposals in Uganda to European Union agreements which we are now pressing to be more rigourously applied to those former Eastern Bloc countries that are still desperately repressive where LGBTQQ people are concerned.
To put it very crudely, there's a lot of point in publicising cmpaigns and strategies. But the only points I can see in drawing attention to an unending stream of bad news stories is to depress and make people feel powerless, while the poster enjoys the luxury of moral outrage - it's pretty much the equivalent of sitting in a corner and jerking off.
Campaigning works. We in England have shown that it does, and continue to work on behalf of our brothers and sisters throughout the world, in ways that we consider will prove productive. And some of the campaigning posts here have - I know from messages both on the board and privately - prompted people to write to MPs, and take other action, on "gay" subjects for the first time in their lives. And effective campaigning is based on generalising from the personal to the universal - it is rooted in personal experience. I don't think that that sits uncomfortably with the "personal experience" side of this forum in any way.
And now for some campaiging of my own!
World AIDS Day is as always on 1st December ( http://www.avert.org/world-aids-day.htm ). Order or make your ribbon early! Order ribbons for distribution or sale. Help out shaking a bucket with your local group. Go and help pack up ribbons for distribution (if you're anywhere near London UK, the National AIDS Trust has volunteer evenings where you can help). And this year it's even more deeply personal for me: as well as remembering good friends that died during the 1980s and early 90s, I will be helping out alongside the youngster in my life, who was born with the HIV virus in his bloodstream.
There's no need to include anything about being gay - though I'd encourage people to: HIV is no longer a "gay plague", but a very real and present killer of millions throughout Africa, and in the UK there are more new HIV infections of heterosexuals than of homosexuals.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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So I gather that the "former" in your "new" nickname doesn't apply or have much relevance eh?
You have NO concept of global as just evidenced by this post 'N--- W----'. None. I'll tell you about just one example of where 'bleating on a private forum/blog' made a huge difference.
Earlier this summer, one of the most prominent proponents of the so called 'EX-Gay' therapy, George Rekers, was caught returning from an overseas trip in the company of a rent boy. [ Not only that, but a rent boy from Rentboy.com. for those of you here who might need their services. ]
Google Rekers and you'll see just how odious that bastard is.
Anyway, the good folk who caught him were bloggers for a Miami Alternative newspaper. That's right, civilians, not card carrying members of the press corps you so obviously despise W----. Bloggers....
Now, it gets better, not only did that story spread thru the blogosphere, but when ANOTHER blogger on ANOTHER private blog, Joe Jervis was given the story, he went out and fully researched, did his due diligence, and exposed a direct connection to the Attorney General of Florida who had used Rekers as an EXPERT witness in a Florida case that cost a Gay couple the legal right to adopt a child in that state.
By the way, that Attorney General was running for Governor of Florida in the Republican primaries and because of Joe Jervis and his readership on his PRIVATE blog and his bleating, the MAINSTREAM Press, yup US, the ugly press, caught the story and ran with it. The outcome? That moron lost his primary campaign and his expenditure of over $100,000 in payment to Rekers as a so-called Anti-Gay expert about the harm of homosexuality, was called into question. Not to mention that Rekers has finally been swept off the 'battlefield' in the 'WAR' against the Gay folk and discredited.
So, put THAT in your pipe and smoke it 'N--- W----'. As I said, I am over your and others here who whine, belittle, and downplay the efforts I make here. Tim has told me that he gets a significant amount of traffic which means that even ONE person is helped by my posts, then I have succeeded.
You and your cronies want to keep in the dark? Fine, but your "bleating is useless" statements make you all appear as ignorant as I am begging to suspect you are, when compared with the relative truth about the effectiveness of a place like this in the overall war efforts against those who would take us, the LGBTQ community, back to the dark ages.
-
Attachment: BITE ME.jpg
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[Updated on: Wed, 08 September 2010 14:05] |
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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It's difficult to argue logically against statements which seem to ignore what has already been said.
First, I have certainly said that I do not think that external protest can achieve any useful advancement in the United States. I have set out in detail my reasons for that view; if you disagree with them I’ll listen to what you have to say. I have not argued against a global view in any other context. Of course we need a global view, but the simple self-righteous recitation of a catalogue of worldwide abuses will do nothing to improve matters. Political pressure can - and as FRP has illustrated above - does make a difference.
Focused protest in Europe is working – not perfectly, but certainly effectively, and as FRP has said, Europe can – and all the indications are that it will – exert very considerable pressure to eliminate anti-gay and all other forms of human rights abuses in Eastern Europe as the price of allowing economic integration. It also needs to be remembered that internal LGBT organisation is far stronger in many Eastern European countries than press reports would suggest. Serbia, another bastion of Orthodox Christianity, is a case in point.
Britain has come a very long way in half a century. Worldwide resistance, especially in counties in which religion is the prominent self-identifier, obviously cannot be defeated overnight, but it can – and will – be defeated in due time by the insidious yet irresistible force of considered campaigning.
I agree that the whole gay community should be aware of the wider situation. The extent to which they engage is up to them – it isn’t mandatory, and quite a number of gays are to a greater or lesser degree introverted as a result of the public perception of their orientation. Engagement isn’t easy for them, and that should be respected. But there’s another aspect you are ignoring – exposure fatigue. It’s a very real concept and it does very real damage.
Charities are well aware of it; whenever there is a succession of appeals – even when they result from a succession of natural disasters – the effective yield declines sharply from each to the next. And so it is here. An oversupply of negative information is extremely counter-productive; the average person is less and less influenced and ultimately will ignore it altogether. A central plank of my whole argument is that jumping up and down – or action for action’s sake – doesn’t have a track record of success. We need to succeed, and that requires just a touch more subtlety.
There’s another aspect of Brody’s attitude to the forum which merits a mention. The concept of a forum is (or at least was, and certainly was in the case of this forum) that a group of people express their views about various topics which they themselves introduce. Dumping large numbers of topics ‘on the table, without engaging in the discussions, is unlikely to win friends and influence people and that, surely, should be the primary objective of the campaigner.
I didn’t see Brody’s last paragraph before it was edited, but the bit that’s left is sufficient to worry me. Words are the primary means of social communication. Someone who professes to be a wordsmith should surely appreciate the need to use them in such a way as to achieve the desired effect. Semantics is the branch of philology concerned with meaning; it isn’t (as appears to be the implication) a synonym for pedantry. I am not a pedant; all my life I’ve been an activist on a variety of fronts. I’ve had my successes and I’ve had my failures, but I’ve learned from experience what works and what does not work. Sexing-up and belligerence sells tabloids – that’s the way of the world – but in the longer term it doesn’t win hearts and minds. And if we don’t succeed in doing that, we are wasting our time.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Let's be VERY clear Cossie, I am NOT a TABLOID journalist. You need to carefully review the material I post before you pontificate, better still, maybe you should consider the reason I do post.
You desire to be passive and posture safely from behind your monitor? Fine, There are those who aren't members here, from the visitors to the lurkers who gain from my, as you all so quaintly have put it, 'bleating on a private forum.'
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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First, that was a blog which presented itself as an 'alternative newspaper'. It's hardly surprising that the lacal press and other newsgatherers would monitor such a site. It's hardly the same as the personal blog of an ordinary member of the public (and certainly in no way similar to this forum).
Secondly, they stumbled across a bit of real news. Obbviously they published in their own alternative newspaper first. Equally, unless thy were idiots, which seems unlikely, they made absolutely sure that the news was picked up by the conventional press. The same is true of the second blogger; he didn't do the research on the offchance that it would be picked up. And in both cases, the information was hot news, not same old, same old ....
If you can't appreciate these distinctions, you have a problem.
And if you can't respond without being overtly rude, you have another problem.
FRP's track record makes it impossible to justify your crude and unfounded suggestion that he wishes to keep anyone in the dark about anything. He wishes, as I do, to do his bit to bring about change - an objective which has been pretty effectively realised in the UK, and in the UK's attitudes in relation to other countries.
The closing illustration says quite a bit about you.
[Updated on: Wed, 08 September 2010 14:47]
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I didn't suggest that you were a tabloid journalist. I said that sexing up and belligerence sells tabloids. Words like 'war' aren't used in this sort of context in the UK quality press.
We'll have to differ about whether the visitors and lurkers gain fom your contributions. I see no reason why Mr average lurker ahould react differently to Mr average poster.
You may enjoy posting your name wherever and whenever you can; I choose anonymity on the net. I campaign under my real name, and if you'd read my posts you'd have discovered that I'm far from passive. I have plenty of face-to-face contact in the course of campaigning, so without a paper bag over my head (which some would admittedly see as an improvement) I'd have a hell of a job to stay anonymous. Why does it matter so much to you?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Cossie & Acam.... Think GLOBALLY! 
Re: Agreement with caveats 
Re: Global vs Insular? Or "effective" vs "self-righteous" 
