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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I was chatting to one of our younger friends. he pointed out with surprise that what he and I were doing was identical with what a predator might do with a young person online with a view to "grooming" them for abuse. Or rather he pointed out that it LOOKED identical.
That worried us both a little.
He'd been reading a report about predators and th einternet. Frankly he and I think the dangers are overstated, but that they are finite.
I took what he said to heart and started to create a page for here that deals with personal safety. I would appreciate your comments on http://iomfats.org/resources/personalsafety.htm please, in order to make it more useful.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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ien
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Netherlands
Registered: April 2002
Messages: 81
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That's a VERY good point! I'm not sure the dangers are overstated, there are a lot of good people out there, people that want to help, do good etc but unfortunatly there are also a lot of very scary people.
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As long as you do not push for personal contact even the slightest (and I am sure you do not for any number of reasons when chatting with younger people, least of all probably because most don't live particulary near your location), I have some difficulty seeing the risks of misinterpretation involved. And since when was it predatorial to be helpful and supportive (despite a large age difference) anyway?
Maybe since the newspaper headlinemakers started noticing the internet, what do I know...
It's a sad state of affairs when we need to take such steps just to cover our butts. 
-L
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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All clever predators will appear helpful. How else does one win confidence.
I am not trying butt covering. What I seek to do instead is to be as pro-actively useful as I can with the site
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Now, put yourselves in the place of a person stumbling onto your web site and message board and with a straight fathers eyes evaluate everything here?
Ask yourselves, as adults if you ever developed more than a casual relationship with a minor participant?
As minors have you possibly let your guard down and perhaps givem out more personal information than necessary?
It seems like a catch 22. In effect a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario.
Nevertheless, it is always better to be safe than sorry, even in a "place of safety".
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Actually with ANY father's eye. or any concerned person's eye.
Providing a safe haven is impossible. You cannot prove trust except by being trusted and earning it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Well, I could offer another piece of advice, and that is to watch where you meet people and what position they hold within the site you met them at.
Usually site administrators can be trusted, though if you question their motives, often you can find out the name of the person that owns the site by using a service such as register.com, and see if that matches up with the name they give you. Also, site administrators usually won't be under the age of 18 (I did own a domain and site briefly when I was 16, until the place I was working at closed down!).
Also, if you meet someone at an interest-based site (a particular game, etc for example) and they are a regular user, and know a lot about the topic, you can usually assume that they are who they say they are, and not simply looking for someone to do "stuff" with. More caution needs to be taken with people met in chatrooms or on sites regarding sexual things, as obviously if it is an "uncouth" environment, they could well be an "uncouth" character.
Finally, do your own research. If someone says they go to a certain school, ask which subjects they do, what (and who) their teachers are, and then find the school's website and ensure consistancy. People may be cautious about revealing their personal details to you, but if they outright lie, then you know they aren't telling the truth about their identity either.
Anyway, there's a few points you might wish to summarize and add to the page. They work pretty well for me, but then again, I live in a relatively remote place (Tasmania), so the chances of meeting someone is small. I have given out my real name and even address quite readily, however, following the above guidelines, and the only thing that has ever happened to me, is that I received a CD in a parcel from a friend in the Netherlands 
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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And what happens when that trust becomes more than trust?
What happens when it crosses the line from a trusted friendship to something more?
Where does the "safety" end and the danger of a relationship begin?
Who is to gauge what is safe and what is not? Who sets the standard?
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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I think you've done about as well as you can. I might suggest that you have a disclaimer with Clues that they are known to "good" predators and aren't that hard to fake or somesuch. Another clue might be if the person is willing to pay for transportation to get together.
Personally, this is one of the reasons I am pretty up-front about my personal desires, which I'm not especially proud of. I think being honest up-front may keep me on the straight and narrow as well as "warn" my younger friends that although I'm a nice guy and have never done anything "wrong" in this regard, I do have my faults, and get them to keep personal safety in the back of their minds, I hope.
Regarding the press, please keep in mind that Sensationalism Sells! Also, I've been interviewed about 4 times in my life by various reporters (nothing important) but every one of them have screwed up some of the facts in a big way, one was a bit embarrasing, quoting me as saying I engineered something I certainly had not, for example. So also don't assume that the press has all (any?) of their facts straight - reporters are just people with limited time and knowledge. I've seen folks get easily riled up over one little article before . . .
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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And I will keep incorporating them.
We are naturally trusting. I woudl hate to lose that. But trust has to be earned, especially when we are talking about young people who are unsure of their orientation and needs.
I hated writing this page.
Why?
Because it means that any wise young person will think twice about talking to me. Well, frankly I'll risk it. Regret it but risk it. I would rather not talk to a new friend who is suddenly more cautious than risk one young person meeting an unpleasant fate.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Think, if this is a place of safety? Why would it need a warning page like that?
Perhaps, just perhaps, you are not so confident in your resolve that the young people that are here now are safe?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It is not a warning page for this place, nor is it a warning page for the site. instead it is a resource for people to find and make use of in whatever way they will.
Having said that, how many of the people here are personally known to me? And of those that are, how many do I know deep inside themselves?
The messageboard is for those who wish to speak to "the world" and find answers, maybe, to their own needs. The site is for those who wish to use a website. Both have different and overlapping purposes.
Any person who first ventures onto the net is, by definition, "net naive". Anyone who gets here is likely to have come here because, just maybe, they have found something of interest. They may be about to learn something about themselves. They may be "gay naive" if you like.
The page is in the same class as this one: http://iomfats.org/resources/sti.htm A page that is a resource. It is reached normally from http://iomfats.org/resourceindex.htm which ois a resource page linked to by many other webmasters. Thus, by inference, rather than by definition, it is a resource "external" to the main site, and thus also external to this messageboard.
Now, this next but will offend some people. The problem is it will offend those who are good people, not those who have different motivations. Here goes:
I would not be at all surprised if, among the people who post or the people who lurk, there are predators.
Why not?
Because all people who come here are human. We have as much a cross section of society as any other virtual place that attracts people hwo are willing and open enough to discuss sexual issues among other issues.
Note that I do not KNOW that we have potential or real predators here. But equally I am certain of it, becauseof the public nature of the net and the quasi anonymous nature of the net, and because many, many people visit who will never post at all, so we never get even the smallest chance to get to know them.
The thing is, much as I regret the fact that people do predate, i recognise it. In fact I welcome them here, for they may learn at last of the hurt they cause.
Save one child from harm, even unkowing. Help a predator turn from that path, even unknowing. Each is good.
Now, anyone who is offened, take your hands off the keyboard for a moment. Please re-read. No-one has pointed a finger at anyone, for, in my mind, there is no-one to point at. if you see yourself in this as a potential or real predator, please Do stay. Stay to learn how harmful predation is on the perosn youmay have convinced yourself is a willing recipient of your attentions. Make a life changing decision. To change your life and not to change his.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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What is "more than trust"? Trust is absolute.
Define "something more". This is unanswerable as it stands.
Why is a relationship dangerous if true trust and love is present?
Who sets the standard? It is in the heart and mind of the people concerned. What they need help with is thinking.
What I am trying to figure out is why your posts seem to be "against" such a page existing. I mean this in no way at all except curiosity. What about this page gives you such a set of difficulties?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Can you honestly tell me that there has never been an ongoing relationship between an adult and a minor as a result of meeting through either your web site or this message board?
And yes, I do mean a potentialy carnal relationship by which one or the other or both at present long for the touch of the other?
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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[For discussion purposes, I'll adopt your apparent position that even a "sexually longing" relationship between "an adult and a minor" is immoral. I'm not disagreeing or agreeing, but we've already debated this many times and I don't thing that's the point or worth further discussion since there is no consensus over the specific details and definitions.]
I certainly can't answer for timmy on this one, but am 100% certain he is unaware of every communication between board visitors "offline" and in the nearly two years I've been here I've never seen evidence of such online. Actually, it would be impossible for him to be fully aware.
But, please don't blame the meeting place for people's actions, especially if the meeting place does everything it can to avoid problems, which is what timmy is doing - not as a CYA measure but as truly helpful advice. Should bathrooms and gyms and forests be aboloished because "illicit" sex takes place there? Define illicit however you wish - it's just an example.
I'll also point out that the one sexually explicit post I've ever seen here was removed by timmy, so to me the atmosphere of this "potential meeting place" is not "sexually interesting" other than perhaps a mild joke or two. timmy has achieved a difficult balance considering the general themes that bring us here.
There are many "better" places for people to meet each other for romantic or sexual relationshipships, and people looking to meet others will find a method to do so one way or the other.
Regarding the web site, I suppose a reader could e-mail an author, but that is true of essentially every erotic story anywhere on the net. timmy's site, unlike most that contain romatic/erotic stories, is full of important information, such as the personal safety page, that those looking for erotica are bound to stumble upon in their search. A very good outcome, and not possible at most fiction-only sites.
Nothing man-made is perfect.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I said nothing about being "fully aware", but just being aware enough will suffice.
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I Have stayed off of this thread, Giving my opinion only to the host.
He has my permission to relay my views if he wants to.
My feeling is that you are trying to provoke a fight. Or get someone to say something you can use against them. If that is you intent, I personally ask you to leave.
Safety is for all of us. Unwarranted attacks are not welcome here. I am very protective of my friends here. Please take that as a warning. I have little tolerance when my friends are attacked.
If this is not your intent, then I apologize and would ask you to temper your posts so as not to be purposely confrontational.
These are my friends, and I hold them in the highest esteem. Given time, I am sure you would as well. So please do not make false accusations or lead this Message Board into a place where it does not belong.
Thank you for your time,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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No Message Body
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Sure seems like you have made up your own mind what that truth is. Either that or you have a much more sinister agenda.
I make these statements as a result of looking at all your posts collectively. Each one, while slightly confrontational, might be considered harmless. But putting them all together, they seem accusatory, or even sinister.
So, tell me, what is your motivation?
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You seem to be prodding for an imposisble answer. Trevor said it eloquently enough. No-one can know. A myriad of conversations take place across the net. I do not police them. I was once asked by my brother in law if I slept around. I will give you the same answer that I gave him: "If I do or if I don't you will never know." From me, about me, about this topic, you get the same answer.
You may read into it whatever you choose, since you will anyway. I do not see the point of your incessant probing. While your posts remain polite I will leave them here, naturally enough.
I seem to recall that the Spanish Inquiisition also sought the truth. Salem Witchunts also sought the truth.
I woudl say as owner of this site that you are not welcome here if you insist on posting in this manner
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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No Message Body
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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No Message Body
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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No Message Body
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Goto Forum:
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] 
A Place of Safety
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Personal Safety 
Precisley. 
Thanks, Timmy! 
I think you are missing the point, and yet you make a worthy point too 
Dear Mr. Lurker 
