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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin
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Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76377 is a reply to message #76375] Sun, 08 December 2019 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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arich - thanks for ending by including the link! 

Somehow, that one has eluded me all of my life (I'll justify that by observing it ws more of a hit in the UK and the US!), but it certainly makes the point!

For those that didn't follow the link, it is to a live performance of Greg Lake's "I Still Believe in Father Christmas" with Ian Anderson, and perfomred as part of a liturgical service (I assume C of E, for Christmas?)

Many thanks on another aspect as well, as I've been wracking my brain for a musical approach in volume 3 of the saga of David and Jackson as Chrstmas 1978 aproaches....and you just gave it to me!





Bensiamin
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76378 is a reply to message #76373] Sun, 08 December 2019 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Ah, the Axial Age hypothesis! Another historical/philosphical gem. My personal interest has always been along practical lines, in the manner Joseph Campbell used it to illustrate the changes in our mythologies and the need for a new for for the industrial or post-industrial age. Thus there are two complex subjects and schools of thought converging which are difficult for many people to get their heads around. I recently discovered a great "philosophical blog" by Nick Nielson that addressed that convergence in a post almost ten years ago, and the 

This paragraph summarizes the thrust of the post in clear and easily understood language:

The Axial Age represents the flourishing intellectual maturity of the institutions of agricultural civilization, that is to say, this is the first time in the history of agricultural civilization that its institutions passed a critical threshold beyond which such non-naturalistic developments in civilization became possible, and once they became possible they were rapidly realized in many diverse cultures and civilizations. In this sense, the religious traditions of the Axial Age are fully a product and a consequence of agricultural civilization, and are specific to it. This accounts for the progressive decline (except when fanned by reactionary fervor) of these traditions in industrialized civilization. We can argue as much as we like about the future of mythology and religion (or even the future of an illusion, as Freud would have it), but the fact of the matter, as Campbell has repeatedly pointed out, is that many if not most of the mythologies of the Axial Age no longer speak to people on a visceral level. Mass man continues to render his respect to these traditions, but they do not move him as they did in the past -- specifically, in the pre-industrial past.

You can read the whole post here.

Your response will be interesting to read! Thanks for you and NW for taking this discussion up a level and into new directions too!




Bensiamin
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76382 is a reply to message #76370] Sun, 08 December 2019 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
American_Alex   United States

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"NW wrote on Sat, 07 December 2019 12:23"
I rather incline to the Jethro Tull approach:
"When I was young
And they packed me off to school
And they taught me how not to play the game
I didn't mind
If they groomed me for success
Or if they said that I was just a fool

So, I left there in the morning
With their God tucked underneath my arm
Their half-assed smiles and the book of rules

And I asked this God a question
And by way of firm reply
He said, "I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
"

(Wind-up, from the album "Aqualung")

--

My feelings are more like the words of Peter Tosh:

"Preacher man, don't tell me
Heaven is under the earth
I know you don't know
What life is really worth
It's not all that glitters is gold
'Alf the story has never been told
So now you see the light, eh!
Stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight!
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight!
Most people think,
Great God will come from the skies
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high
But if you know what life is worth
You will look for yours on earth
And now you
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight!
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight!"
 



"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76385 is a reply to message #76275] Mon, 09 December 2019 07:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura   France

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And were I to add some lyrics it might well be this song:

Isn't Life Strange
The Moody Blues

Isn't life strange
A turn of the page
Can read like before
Can we ask for more
Each day passes by 
How hard man will try
The sea will not wait
You know it makes me want to cry, cry, cry

Wish I could be in your heart
To be one with your love
Wish I could be in your eyes
Looking back there your were and here we are

Isn't love strange
A word we arrange
With no thought or care
Maker of despair
Each breath that we breathe
With love we must weave
To make us as one 
You know it makes me want to cry, cry, cry

Wish I could be in your heart
To be one with your love
Wish I could be in your eyes
Looking back there you were, and here we are

Isn't life strange
A turn of the page
A book without light
Unless with love we write
To throw it away
To lose just a day
The quicksand of time
You know it makes me want to cry cry, cry

Wish I could be in your heart
To be one with your love
Wish I could be in your eyes
Looking back there you were and here we are

Songwriters: John Charles Lodge
Isn't Life Strange lyrics © Shapiro Bernstein & Co. Inc.

[Updated on: Mon, 09 December 2019 07:23]

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76388 is a reply to message #76385] Mon, 09 December 2019 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cm is currently offline  cm   United Kingdom

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...one of my favourite songs by one of my favourite groups (but never quite the same once the voice and lyrics of Ray Thomas were gone).
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76392 is a reply to message #76388] Tue, 10 December 2019 01:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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"Your response will be interesting to read! Thanks for you and NW for taking this discussion up a level and into new directions too!"

Bensiamin, I think using too fine a brush when painting a picture of the past is fraught with pitfalls.

I know there has to be a word for this but aren't the lenses we see through somewhat akin to what could be called cultural anthropomorphism?

*shrug*

Just had a strange thought, not that I Don't have lots of those.

Love can provide the space, we need to put it before calculated knowledge.

Shrugs 

Seems like that would be a pretty cool paradigm shift. What we have can no longer bare the weight.

sticking with the Moody Blues theme this evening.

https://youtu.be/NtUyq6C3bZQ

 

[Updated on: Tue, 10 December 2019 02:15]

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76393 is a reply to message #76392] Tue, 10 December 2019 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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arich: thanks for continuing the Moody Blues sojourn. I was there yesterday after c_m kicked it off, and still am today!

For those who like to read as well as listen to lyrics, here's the lyrics to Have You Heard:

Now you know that you are real,
Show your friends that you and me
Belong to the same world,
Turned on to the same word,
Have you heard?
Now you know that you are free,
Living all your life at ease.
Each day has its always,
A look down life's hallways, doorways,
To lead you there.
 
Now you know how nice it feels,
Scatter good seed in the fields.
Life's ours for the making,
Eternity's waiting, waiting,
For you and me.
Now you know that you are real,
Show your friends that you and me
Belong to the same world,
Turned on to the same word,

What a fabulous human call to action! Does anyone have a transcription of the introductory voice over?




Bensiamin
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76394 is a reply to message #76393] Tue, 10 December 2019 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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"The Dream"

When the white eagle of the North is flying overhead
The browns, reds and golds of autumn lie in the gutter, dead.
Remember then, that summer birds with wings of fire flaying
Came to witness springs new hope, born of leaves decaying.
As new life will come from death, love will come at leisure.
Love of love, love of life and giving without measure
Gives in return a wondrous yearn of a promise almost seen.
Live hand-in-hand and together we'll stand on the threshold of a dream.

Is that what you wanted?

[Updated on: Tue, 10 December 2019 20:43]

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76395 is a reply to message #76394] Tue, 10 December 2019 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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M83 "intro" https://youtu.be/3Sb9fWcJk14

We didn't need a story, we didn't need a real world
We just had to keep walking
And we became the stories, we became the places
We were the lights, the deserts, the faraway worlds
We were you before you even existed. Carry on, carry on, carry on
And after us the flood
Carry on, carry on, carry on
Our silver horn it leads the way
Banners of gold shine
In the cold, in the cold, in the cold
Footprints of snow, blind from the road
Hail!We carry on, carry on
Follow us, we are one
The battle's fought, the deed is done
Our silver hum runs deep and strong
Hand to the heart, lips to the horn
We can save, we can be reborn
Head on my breast, I'll keep you warm
Hail!

Hurry up, We're dreaming

 though I find it to be a very nice song, wonderful sentiment in many ways. I find it rife with contradictions. In my POV.

[Updated on: Tue, 10 December 2019 22:14]

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76397 is a reply to message #76395] Wed, 11 December 2019 00:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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Face piles
And piles
Of trials
With smiles.
It riles them to believe
That you perceive
The web they weave
And keep on thinking free.

Always makes me think of establishment religion. No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition...

Bu I digress



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76398 is a reply to message #76397] Wed, 11 December 2019 01:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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"timmy wrote on Wed, 11 December 2019 00:34"
Face piles
And piles
Of trials
With smiles.
It riles them to believe
That you perceive
The web they weave
And keep on thinking free.

Always makes me think of establishment religion. No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition...

Bu I digress

--

I find this all very much on topic. Says a lot about where we've come from, and a cautionary note about where we may be going.

BTW the fifth line of "The Dream" I posted was a copy and paste from a lyric site. I thought I caught all the errors but Line five should read "As new life will come through" not 'from.' That wasn't the only one

I know, a bit pedantic..... Devils in the details right...😳 Wait that can't be right can it? But wait, everything has come from the same place....hmmmm🤔
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76399 is a reply to message #76398] Wed, 11 December 2019 08:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura   France

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The Moody Blues evokes an era in human development and is a broad and fascinating subject for discussion. I rather like this YouTube video that accompanies Have You Heard: https://youtu.be/oCsKshg2BsY I think it was filmed in 1959.

In an interview on The Moody Blues Today, Justin Hayward was asked:What was just about the best day of your life; both musically and personally?Getting my first guitar when I was 10. I was so thrilled when I came back from two weeks summer holiday with my parents and the guitar had been delivered to our neighbours in Swindon. It came from Headquarter and General Supplies and we paid in installments. It was £2.10 shillings. I loved it. It was everything I hoped it would be.http://www.moodybluestoday.com/latest-qa-with-justin/
I like that response.The most interesting though is the story behind the Moody Blues, extract from the Guardian, Psychedelias Forgotten Heroes: 
... when you consider that the Moody Blues outlaw credentials were rock solid. They were directly implicated in the notorious three-part News of the World exposé in February 1967 on drug-taking in pop. They hung out with Jimi Hendrix, and in that Isle of Wight documentary, Justin Hayward admits to taking LSD a dozen or so times. None of the other members are exactly coy about their influences either. And how could they be when they paid blatant and unambiguous homage to the high priest of LSD, Timothy Leary, in flautist Ray Thomas's Legend of a Mind? Keyboard player Mike Pinder's (Thinking is) The Best Way to Travel on the In Search of a Lost Chord album is one of the great "show me the universe and get me home for tea" acid songs, and that quintet of late 60s albums is liberally peppered with memorable psychedelic moments.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/sep/17/the-moody-blue s-psychedelias-forgotten-heroes


Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76400 is a reply to message #76394] Wed, 11 December 2019 23:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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arich: yes, this is precisely what I was after and unable to find myself. 

I was particularly struck by the second half:

As new life will come through death, love will come at leisure.
Love of love, love of life and giving without measure
Gives in return a wondrous yearn of a promise almost seen.
Live hand-in-hand and together we'll stand on the threshold of a dream.

It's a telling and very evocative way to put it.

If only we could love love and life, give without measure and live hand-in-hand together!



Bensiamin
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76402 is a reply to message #76400] Wed, 11 December 2019 23:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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Here something I came across jut a few min ago.... Not the end all and be all.... But I sure have to say I resonate very strongly with what he's saying.

https://youtu.be/kVXSayKzGt8
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76403 is a reply to message #76402] Fri, 13 December 2019 01:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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arich: very interesting and helpful video. I have to watch it a couple of more times!

Terrific and educational give and take so far! Perhaps a touch of humor to take the edge off!
http://forum.iomfats.org/?t=getfile&id=5075&private=0



Bensiamin
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76405 is a reply to message #76403] Fri, 13 December 2019 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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http://forum.iomfats.org/?t=getfile&id=5076&private=0



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76406 is a reply to message #76405] Sat, 14 December 2019 01:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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LOL I like fuzzy myself, sharp edges can be dangerous 😬 Not saying fuzzy isn't outside some people's comfort zone. But we have, after all all coming form and are going to the same place,(what a segue huh😏) no matter what you may believe at the moment.

Let's play a game:
Imagine you are infinite ( what's beyond the cosmic microwave background?) what would your field of play look like? Design me an, entertaining, game that would last eternity. Well, 'level me up baby.'

So many questions and mysteries..... Wow I Love it. Grab your boards boys, surfs up, time to ride the crest. (Shrugs) or not. What's your gig? To be anything but yourself would be a lie.

One things for sure, that being is.

So that stack of paper sitting in front of you, is for you. 'You may begin"..... how many dread that phrase to this day?😩 And if any of you says they loved taking test I'm gonna 😱 try and ultimately respond with the highest sentiment that I have to express.

Oh snap, no worries, I forgot for a sec, there is no pass or fail.🤯

I've had an occasion, recently, to interact with some folks who thought there might be portholes, to (?), alternates, transcendence, salvation, our maybe destruction?

Interesting how we have a place we call the heart but isn' t the physical muscle... Hmmmm portholes..... 🤔

https://youtu.be/DvVmqnNBo9w

[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2019 01:09]

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76407 is a reply to message #76406] Sat, 14 December 2019 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura   France

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"arich wrote on Sat, 14 December 2019 02:08"

I've had an occasion, recently, to interact with some folks who thought there might be portholes, to (?), alternates, transcendence, salvation, our maybe destruction?




My mistake... I read potholes, not portholes, lol!  Thought you were making an unintentional pun. But they are only looking at alternatives, transcendence, salvation, and destruction, not actually falling into It!

[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2019 10:13]

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76408 is a reply to message #76407] Sat, 14 December 2019 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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"Talo Segura wrote on Sat, 14 December 2019 10:09"
"arich wrote on Sat, 14 December 2019 02:08"

I've had an occasion, recently, to interact with some folks who thought there might be portholes, to (?), alternates, transcendence, salvation, our maybe destruction?




My mistake... I read potholes, not portholes, lol!  Thought you were making an unintentional pun. But they are only looking at alternatives, transcendence, salvation, and destruction, not actually falling into It!

--

Maybe I should have gone for "portal" instead of porthole but pothole seems appropriate in it's own way. All part of a passage I suppose.

A passage closer to home.

Bon voyage.
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76409 is a reply to message #76408] Sat, 14 December 2019 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy   United States

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@ Timmy...

I'm going to have to remember Mark 16:17 the next time the JW's or those sweet looking mormon missionary boys come knocking on my door... Hehe...



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76410 is a reply to message #76409] Sat, 14 December 2019 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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"Teddy wrote on Sat, 14 December 2019 21:30"
@ Timmy...

I'm going to have to remember Mark 16:17 the next time the JW's or those sweet looking mormon missionary boys come knocking on my door... Hehe...

--
I use it whenever they do



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76411 is a reply to message #76275] Sun, 15 December 2019 07:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura   France

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Nothing to do with the thread content, but when you load in a large image, like Bensiamin, to a forum thread, it makes everything else much smaller, so the text comments become unreadable on a phone and difficult on a tablet. You have to zoom in and move to read each line of commentary. 
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76413 is a reply to message #76411] Sun, 15 December 2019 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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This is worth going full screen btw, more food for thoughts.

https://youtu.be/QCrF5nv0MU4

LOL though have to say if I could remember what it was that I saw when I first opened my eyes, I think it was probably pretty blurry.... just sayin.👶

And is my want a song in parting.

https://youtu.be/8FvXZ5bk8MQ

[Updated on: Mon, 16 December 2019 01:23]

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76414 is a reply to message #76275] Mon, 16 December 2019 08:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura   France

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"I have always wondered what it would be like to go to sleep, and never wake up, for ever and ever," Alan Watts.

That just won't ever happen... even when asleep, you are awake, conconscious, and dreaming, except maybe when you're not, dreaming that is, but I think mostly you are dreaming, all the time, you just don't press replay when awake (if you are awake, and not still dreaming... no, just kidding, of course you are awake).

The BIG confusion is thinking you are you, when you are not, and yet you are! I always wanted to discover God and the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. But once done, you don't keep looking, because you already know. You know you knew, even though you forgot, when you see that, it's a revelation!
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76415 is a reply to message #76414] Mon, 16 December 2019 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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"Talo Segura wrote on Mon, 16 December 2019 08:34"
"I have always wondered what it would be like to go to sleep, and never wake up, for ever and ever," Alan Watts.

That just won't ever happen... even when asleep, you are awake, conconscious, and dreaming, except maybe when you're not, dreaming that is, but I think mostly you are dreaming, all the time, you just don't press replay when awake (if you are awake, and not still dreaming... no, just kidding, of course you are awake).

The BIG confusion is thinking you are you, when you are not, and yet you are! I always wanted to discover God and the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. But once done, you don't keep looking, because you already know. You know you knew, even though you forgot, when you see that, it's a revelation!

--
It is likely the same as a general anaesthetic for surgey. No dreaming. Nothing. We only know we are alive again afterwards because we wake up. During surgery there is nothing. We are not even aware of there being nothing because there is nothing.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76417 is a reply to message #76275] Tue, 17 December 2019 05:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura   France

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Instead of weakening, the brain is more active than ever during anesthesia...It is true that we become unconscious, do not dream (except maybe just before waking up), and everything appears wiped from memory, but no one understands how anaesthesia works, it is a huge mystery. One thing is clear though, increased brain activity is not nothing, rather like people in a coma hearing those around them, but unable to respond. 

Here is an interesting, easy to read article on anaesthesia:  https://www.cheatsheet.com/health-fitness/what-really-happen s-brain-during-anesthesia-truly-terrifying.html/
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76418 is a reply to message #76275] Wed, 18 December 2019 04:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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I've lost track of how the current conversation relates to "Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin" but nothwithstanding that, in as much as I know somehing about anesthesia, for all the interesting realities being pointed out, the agents administerd are chosen for specific reasons, like invoking a state of unconciousness, muscle relaxation, pain reduction, and most important...the magic quality of nitours oxide in blocking memory. You see, without nitrous oxide, in spit of being "out" you'd still remember a lot or most of it. You can ask the patients who have sued hospitals because they didn't get enough nitrous oxide and reme er the surgical staff talking and joking, or worse yet the sounds of the bone saw, etc. Personally, having seen plenty of surgeries in my day, I'd rather be assured of not remembering any of it. Just as I hope my end comes like the father of a friend: dying while asleep...which strikes me as the next best thing!



Bensiamin
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76419 is a reply to message #76418] Wed, 18 December 2019 08:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura   France

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"Bensiamin wrote on Wed, 18 December 2019 05:37"
I've lost track of how the current conversation relates to "Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin" ...

--
The topic is rather all embracing and thus likely to go off on all sorts of tangents. Faith like God is believing without being certain, in existence which surmonts or encompasses life and death. Homosexuality and LGBTQ has no bearing on faith and God, only religion and being part of an organised group. Sin does not exist, it is an evil creation perpetuated by certain religions to exert control and maintain order and a following through fear and retribution.

The idea of dying in one's sleep is a comforting thought, (I hope my end comes like the father of a friend: dying while asleep...which strikes me as the next best thing!), but it is nothing to fear however we may meet the end of this life. It might be clearer to deal with whilst awake, rather than dreaming, I don't know. However it may arrive, it is accepting and leaving this world which has to be navigated emotionally. When I was younger my best friend died. I had known him since we were seven years old, he lived a few houses away. We grew up together, and like I suppose, many kids we used sometimes to sit around asking questions about life. You know the kinds of questions: Are there aliens on other planets? Is Father Christmas real? What happens when you die? The questions evolve as you grow up. We made a pact, again, you know the sort of thing, like swearing to be blood brothers. Only this was one time we were considering life, the universe and everything. Our pact was very simple: whom ever should die first, should it be possible, they would come back and tell the other about it. Childish, perhaps, and simply another thing you put to the back of your mind, except the day that he died brought that pact back to me. About a week after he died, he was twenty years old then, I had one of those very real, very vivid dreams. My best friend was standing there. What did I do? Well, I asked him: "Do you remember the pact we made?" Yes, he did. "So, what happened?" I asked. At first I screamed a lot, he told me, then it was okay. He walked away and whilst I sometimes think of him, I have never dreamed of him again. 

Was it real? It was for me. It was a closure. I won't go into the details of how he died, but It was sudden and completely unexpected. So I can imagine it was a shock for him to find himself dead. I can also imagine he might have screamed, because of the surprise. That he said it was okay, of course was a huge comfort, and fits with my thoughts on death. Did my brain just make up the whole dream? You decide, I know what I think.

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76421 is a reply to message #76419] Wed, 18 December 2019 23:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Location: USA
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Talo: only one word to comment on your last post. BRAVO!



Bensiamin
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76435 is a reply to message #76275] Sun, 22 December 2019 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura   France

Toe is in the water
Location: Europe
Registered: July 2019
Messages: 88



I happened across the research of Professor Peter Fenwick and this interview with him https://youtu.be/78SkTuk8Zd4 about his research starting in the eighties, looking into Near Death Experiences. It seems to me that the accounts he collected explain, although not completely, what happens when we die, or at least as far as when we arrive at death's door. 

A fundamental question is raised about consciousness. Does consciousness exist outside of the brain or is it secreted by the brain. If the latter were true, then when the brain ceases to function, consciousness dies, and there is nothing. However, the balance of evidence points to consciousness existing outside of the brain, which simply funnels consciousness into individual existence. In which case, those who believe there is no existence after death, are mistaken. Good news!

What then happens when we die? It is a question as Fenwick explains, of letting go. The art of dying serenely is being able to let go of all your connections with family, friends, and loved ones. Equally, letting go of attachments to possessions, feelings of things left unfinished, or sentiments of guilt. One must say goodbye to everything, absolutely everything.

And where do we go? When one becomes detached and released from this life their, our, your, individuality ceases. You become aware that you are one with everything, you are in fact much greater than the individual you were. With this comes a feeling of bliss, time no longer exists, there is no future or past. There are many spin off side phenomenon connected with the process of dying, and no knowledge of how existence proceeds after death.

I found the interview fascinating, it opens up a whole field of study about how we die and what is consciousness. 

Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76436 is a reply to message #76435] Sun, 22 December 2019 10:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13458



I tried to watch this, and failed. Unseen, it has prompted this set of thoughts.
  • We like to consider that something of us remains after death apart from a decomposing corpse
  • We like to think that any remaining part of us has something to do or somewhere to go

Both of these thoughts are comforting, somehow. It's difficult to think that we just cease, even if we do.
  • Religion has capitalised upon these thoughts and given us a purpose for 'after we die'
  • To gain that purpose we must behave in the way that religion dictates. Examples include mutilating genitalia, genuflecting, gathering together for chanting in buildings, offering sacrifices, drinking fake blood and eating fake flesh

Why do I care?

Let me postulate a Heaven.

Heaven suggests that all those who have qualified get  to turn up and do inestimable things that no-one living can conceive of. It is 'good', though we have no clear idea of what 'good' really is.

It follows that, in Heaven, assuming our friends and colleagues have jumped though all the hoops and leaped all the hurdles to get the door key, we will likely meet any and all of them.

In life I adored, him, hated all of them, and do not wish to meet one particular person ever again, for reasons not related to their being 'good'. Indeed my Heaven would turn to Hell were I to meet that person. That's not Heaven. I'm pretty sure my turning up in one partoculr chap's Heaven woudl ruin things for him, too.

The best representation of Heaven is one I read in The Lovely Bones, but that also doesn't sound particularly pleasing

I am thus not keen on the classical representation of a Heaven.

I'm coming back to not caring. I have no need to 'be' after I die. I can't get a tune out  of a harp anyway. And I've apparently masturbated far too much to go anywhere near puffy white clouds.

I suppose I ought to try and watch this again, but it fitted into my tl;dr category. I abandoned it while the older gentleman was telling us how his job was well positioned.

[Updated on: Sun, 22 December 2019 10:43]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76439 is a reply to message #76436] Sun, 22 December 2019 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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Messages: 563



I would say that there are lot of interesting conversations about what our ultimate destiny might be.

Two things:
1) nobody knows

2) it doesn't really matter. LOL we'll all be going to the same place. After all we all came from the same place

At Play on the field of Gods. Maybe? What would you, design?

I do know one thing. I am not going to let anyone else design a heaven, hell or nothing (This is all there is and ever will be... WTF Carl?).... We sure know there was more than what he thought there was when he made that statement.

No I know that isn't what he means. But our Carl was a bit of a materialist.
I, not so much.

Like Talo, I had an experience. My eldest brother died. We were very connected, some would say we had a spooky connection. And this before spooky action at a distance.😳
Before I got the call, I had a dream, visually it stunned, literally fire works. The only thing he said was "it's more amazing than we ever imagined. The felling was, "Sorry, you won't hear from me again, too many other cool things to do...."

What would you design? Time to let go of the old ideas.

Sorry for the tautology. Though must say, don't consider it such a bad thing.

Just thoughts.
https://youtu.be/GVcbV5HZXJ0
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76452 is a reply to message #76439] Thu, 26 December 2019 21:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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At approximately 2:30 he says " ? And modern science," I can't figure out what that "?" word is? I'm hoping someone's hearing here is better than mine.

https://youtu.be/UhAVbX3K5Q4
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76453 is a reply to message #76331] Sat, 28 December 2019 11:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Composer is currently offline  The Composer   United Kingdom

Toe is in the water

Registered: September 2018
Messages: 82



'human nature requires something to address the big questions of life'

What are these 'big questions of life'?
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76454 is a reply to message #76453] Sat, 28 December 2019 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joecasey is currently offline  joecasey   United States

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Messages: 22



'Human nature requires something to address the big questions of life.'

Well, we do have Siri and Alexa ...
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76455 is a reply to message #76454] Sat, 28 December 2019 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

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Messages: 563



"joecasey wrote on Sat, 28 December 2019 13:22"
'Human nature requires something to address the big questions of life.'

Well, we do have Siri and Alexa ...

--
I don't know that Siri and Alexa are ready to address all the baggage life carries with it.
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76456 is a reply to message #76455] Sun, 29 December 2019 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13458



"arich wrote on Sat, 28 December 2019 17:00"

"joecasey wrote on Sat, 28 December 2019 13:22"
'Human nature requires something to address the big questions of life.'

Well, we do have Siri and Alexa ...

--
I don't know that Siri and Alexa are ready to address all the baggage life carries with it.

--
I see that the minor deity Cortana never made the cut



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76457 is a reply to message #76456] Sun, 29 December 2019 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

Really getting into it
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Messages: 563



"timmy wrote on Sun, 29 December 2019 00:32"
"arich wrote on Sat, 28 December 2019 17:00"

"joecasey wrote on Sat, 28 December 2019 13:22"
'Human nature requires something to address the big questions of life.'

Well, we do have Siri and Alexa ...

--
I don't know that Siri and Alexa are ready to address all the baggage life carries with it.

--
I see that the minor deity Cortana never made the cut

--

Don't know how that happened but when I ask, Siri who "Cortana" was, she, he, it, got kinda snippy.😬
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76460 is a reply to message #76405] Mon, 30 December 2019 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13458



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENCxovoX0AA37gV?format=jpg&name=900x900

Abraham has a lot to answer for, not least of which the deploiyment of commas, obviously far worse than strife in the Middle East and all those holy wars by all the Abrahamic religions



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Faith, Religion, Homosexuality, LGBTQ People, God, Sin  [message #76461 is a reply to message #76460] Mon, 30 December 2019 22:53 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
arich is currently offline  arich   United States

Really getting into it
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Messages: 563



Yes, those opprobrious commas...Eeeeek. What ever shall we do?😳
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