|
|
|
|
This makes me sick at heart. Please read the transcript carefully and be warned. Chat Rooms are dangerous places and are frequented by very unsulubrious people.
Here is the link: http://www.perverted-justice.com/?archive=REDBD
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
Let's be very clear indeed here.
No adult is ever an acceptable sexual partner for a child
There are no exceptions legally, not even if one is one day over the age of concent and the other one day under. And we must all behave lawfully. Enticing and entrapping a child is evil and awful.
The point here is for the younger. I created ages ago this page: http://iomfats.org/resources/personalsafety.html which is an imperfect but decent set of guidelines for meetings.
This case is quite horrible. How could this jerk ever imagine anyone would ever want to see naked pictures of him? Though I despise entrapment, how lucky this 13 year old boy was a fake.
But why do they alwasy make homosexual equate with paedophile? Why oh why could they not have entrapped someone with a girl?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Yup...... I saw the TV show....
All I can say is...... HOLY MOSES!!! and I hope he fries in a deep dark jail.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
I should also add that there are no exceptions morsally. We live in societies where we consent to be governed by laws we have encated on our behalf to keep our society running well, that is a given.
But no-one, no-one at all, would view this man as an accetpable sexual partner for any minor child, age of consent or no age of consent. That is a moral view, and a good one.
Something irks me, though. Is the boy had been an 18 year old girl, we would be congratulating him on being able to attract such a "sweet young thing". Lawful, yes, and oddly socially acceptable.
All I can think of is "Yuck".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Entrapment would not be necessary if this was a perfect world.
However, there are a great many people that prey on children....
These people need to be stopped.... It's just that simple.
As for the "girl" part..... On the show they caught both boy preditors and girl preditors......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
 |
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
I dunno, I'm torn. Still. Entrapment is every bit as disgusting. I also think that Ephebophilia
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
I looked this word ephebophilia up. It is defined in the first reference somehwat ambiguously as "Ephebophilia is the sexual attraction of an older person to a newly pubescent person of the same sex" which can genuinely be read that the older is attracted to the younger or that the younger is attracted to the older. Read it carefully.
A better presented set of definitions is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia
The word also contains the greek word for "love".
This chat room prowler had nothing to do with love, rather like "boylove" has nothing to do with love. This was a man old enough to be the putative 13 year old's grandfather out for sex.
This is nothing one can weasel out of with fancy definitions. The USA and most other cultures find it socially unacceptable and unlawful to entice a perosn of less than the age of consent into sex. That is what the law is for. It doesn't care if you are attracted or not, it says "do not do it".
If attraction were the only rule for legitimising something, then where does one stop? An attractive 12 year old? 9 years? 5 years? One cannot legitimise that which is not legitimisable.
But the point, I think, of this post was to say to people who read it "That person I met online may not be what they seem". Well this one was a fat, grey haired old man. Others pose as cute 13 year old boys but are not. People who want to meet you above all else are pushy and usually after your body.
I hope it encourages safe online behaviour. It will never make a predator think twice, but it may make a victim take better care. What if thsi 13 year old boy had been real, not a camera crew?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
IMO, ephebophilia, boylove, paedophilia, etc. are all pretty much useless words as they mean different things to different people. It's dangerous for anyone to use them, regardless of how they define them, as other people will load them with their own connotations. (Paedophilia: child-love -- but that's not what most people take it to mean!)
For that matter, even the word "gay" means different things to different people. I, for example, see myself as gay but I mean it in an almost entirely non-sexual, platonic sense. Whereas a lot of people are completely preoccupied with what gay people get up to beneath the sheets, to the extent that conceptions of "love" go completely out of the window.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
I don't believe for a moment that he'd pick up any real boys using chat-up lines like that!
I do think that the media fails to give credit to the intelligence of the average 13 year-old. (Of course, it's in their best interests to do so.) What real 13 year-old would willingly fall into the hands of a dirty old man in his fifties?
[Oh, I forgot. One is completely unable to use any form of intelligence or rational thought until one's 16th birthday (or 18th in America -- aren't we lucky in the UK that we are all 2 years more advanced than Americans?).]*
This man completely deserves what is coming to him. The people who worry me more, though, are not so much people like him as people who deliberately set out to deceive. There have been quite a few posts about that on this board in the last few weeks, and many of the accounts are quite horrific.
*Yes, that's a blatant troll. I'd just ignore it if I were you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Do you for a moment think that this was this persons first encounter?
In fact within the youth facility that this man worked there were 2 other adults caught the same way.
In the TV show that aired the sting the first words out of every one of the men enticed to enter the house of a lone teen were "I am here to help him"
Yeah RIGHT!!!
Oh..... this included the man who carried a twelve pack of beer in without a stitch of clothing on....
Fact..... Any man who maneuvers himself into an illicit encounter with a minor deserves no quarter... Deserves no consideration... Jail is too good for them...
The people taking the time to put these low life behind bars need to be praised for their actions.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I did not see the programme, so I cannot comment on individual cases. But as I said, this man completely deserves what is coming to him.
If you say it happens, then it happens. But it amazes me
(a) that you get adults so amoral that they can justify this sort of behaviour to themselves - especially "good", "moral" people like rabbis
(b) that anyone (and I include children in this) could be foolish enough to invite one of these people to "help" them
It is the second point that I brought up in my first post.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Just because a man is a Rabbi he doesnt necessarily have to be of good moral standing...
As for children being foolish enough to let this "help" happen to them... Well just think about that a microsecond.... This is the trap set by the hunter...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You might have noticed the inverted commas around "good".
I also did not see the programme. I am basing everything on the transcript cited by JFR. I would say that in that case, yes, it was quite obvious what was going on right from the start, and that any child would have been foolish to get involved.
I was not talking about deception. When someone sets out to deceive on the internet it is almost impossible to verify whether they are who they say they are. I was saying that in the rabbi's case he was so blatant about it that he was likely only to pick up police or vigilantes masquerading as boys.
There's not much point in us arguing about it as -- as far as I can see -- we both think the same thing!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
That he is a rabbi does not make him a good person. But his job is to be a good person and to have high moral standards. His is not a 9-5 job. Howveer I deprecate any dirty old man in chat rooms enticing youth into his nasty embrace. The rabbi part just adds "ewwwwwww" factor.
While it is impososble for you or I to conceive inviting at 13 years old such a man into our home (especially after seeing the pics) for sex I see no resason why it would not happen, despite feeling that the entire conversation is unlikely after the putative 13 year old knew this guy's age.
Far more likely is it that the predator woudl have concealed much about himself until a meeting, and woudl then have barged in to the home.
This makes me remind you and everyone that the rules for first meetings are to be in a public place, and to be ciscumspect and leave of you do not like what you see. Please be clear if you are reading this and are planning a meeting: You do not have to meet anyone you do not choose to meet, and it is perfectly valid to look from afar and change oyur mind, even at the last moment.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pretty much everyone here has commented on the pedophilia side of things here, and i think we're all in agreement that not only is it just plain disgusting its pretty much wrong...
apart from that, what springs to mind when i read stuff like this is what a poor light this casts the internet, and what impression it gives people and parents of internet chat rooms forums and message boards.
stupid though i may be called, i've met a fair number of people from online now, and i pretty much ignore timmy's guidelines... which isn't to say i don't take some precautions of course (i never meet a person i've not seen on webcam, or seen a pic and had him vouched for by another guy who knows him i've seen on webcam)
my point is i've met up with at least 15 people who were younger than me, going as far as 18/14 and i've had no bad experiances meeting any of these guys, and seeing as i still speak to all of them, and have met some of them multiple times, i'm pretty sure they feel the same way about me.
these are people i've met, not in chat rooms, but in internet forums, added on MSN, and then met in real life, usually over a period of several months, and meeting up with them is a further stage of a great friendship with these guys
in 1 case at least, i genuinely was there to help a person, and in another, i travelled to meet a guy to help him choreograph a film project he was working on (i'm a fencer and he wanted some sword fighting scenes!)
but with predators like this online, parents are going to prevent their children doing this kind of thing, there's going to be total distrust of anyone you meet online, and i think, on the balance, thats thats a bad thing, some of my best friends are people i've met online, 3 of them from this very message board, and without them, life would be a whole lot less fun.
yes, we have to be careful of predators out there, and yes they exist, but at the same time, there are lots of genuine and great people online, and oyu can make a load of really good friends through the net. i would hope that the actions of some deviant few do not prevent the socially acceptable and healthy activities of the many.
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
I agree Timmy that this situation had nothing to do with love, but I think I can safely say that it had to do with genuine attraction. And if the boy WAS real, then he showed an attraction in the older man, too. It's not like the boy was being forced into anything. Teenagers in chat rooms have no reservations about being altogether cruel in rejecting others, I've experienced it myself in the past. If it was a real boy, and the conversation went the same way that it did in that log, then if at any point the boy felt uncomfortable he could have said "ur old and ugly, nothx" *block*. A lot of teenagers that frequent gay chatrooms to look for sex (and trust me, that is why they are there) would have no reservations about doing that. Or they would just stop talking to the person. At least the Rabbi had the decency to be open and honest about his age and appearance, giving the teen boy the choice of if he wanted to have a sexual experience with someone like that.
There was some seduction by the Rabbi in the chat, and even what some may call "grooming", but no more than might exist in a teen-teen relationship, or an adult-adult relationship, if you're in a chatroom with the intent of finding sex that is usually how things go. Now I'm not saying that the actions of this Rabbi were justifiable either, doing things in such a covert, underground way, deliberately trying to avoid anything being found out by the parents, etc is quite nasty, but a large part of it being so underground and sex-motivated could be the fact that Ephebophilia isn't accepted by mainstream society as a valid form of sexual attraction (whether or not acting on it is legitimate). Anyway, I kinda forgot what the point was I was trying to make, I might remember it next time I come to post 
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
Saben wrote:
> There was some seduction by the Rabbi in the chat, and even what some may call "grooming", but no more than might exist in a teen-teen relationship, or an adult-adult relationship, if you're in a chatroom with the intent of finding sex that is usually how things go. Now I'm not saying that the actions of this Rabbi were justifiable either, doing things in such a covert, underground way, deliberately trying to avoid anything being found out by the parents, etc is quite nasty, but a large part of it being so underground and sex-motivated could be the fact that Ephebophilia isn't accepted by mainstream society as a valid form of sexual attraction (whether or not acting on it is legitimate). Anyway, I kinda forgot what the point was I was trying to make, I might remember it next time I come to post
The actions were not justifiable. Moreover they were illegal. Grooming is an absolute offence. It is no0t at all material that the minor leads the adult to believe she or he is consenting because consent can not exist in law in this case.
Giving something a pseudo scientifc name does not make it lawful, nor even desirable. NAMBLA gives "sex with children" a veneer of decency(!), but, as South Park said "Dude, you have sex with children!" in its episode about them. It's plain wroing for any form of predatory activity to be legalised. And the adult is in control.
Now you are welcome to campaign to change the law, and a reasonable change might be a sliding scale where younger people may genuinely consent to have sex with other younger people, but there can be nothing to justify dirty old men seducing kids.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Now you are welcome to campaign to change the law, and a reasonable change might be a sliding scale where younger people may genuinely consent to have sex with other younger people, but there can be nothing to justify dirty old men seducing kids.
surely you have to 100% agree with this saben...
isn't japan one country where such a sliding scale exists? i think it was you who told me about it once, i for one, think thats a much better system of deciding age of consent, because it partially takes into account different levels of maturity experianced by people.
while set straight line limits may make sense in certain areas - say driving - in terms of objective external questions, such as liscense applications, whether someone is physically and mentally able to give consent to sexual activity if far more subjective, and a sliding scale better reflects this than a set and marked up limit.
though in my personal opinion, anyone using chatrooms just to look for sex, regardless of age is wrong. sex should not be a casual thing done for sex's sake... but thats just my opinion
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
I have stepped in to remove some posts in this thread. I doubt that will be wholly appreciated, but I view it s necessary.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
