|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
There are many folk in the USA who are hugely patriotic, and yet who feel that the US black population is to be despised as second class humanity.
When US athletes win huge events and are, in athletics certainly, as black as they can be, how does the patriotic racist reconcile the inescapable fact that the black US citizen is damned good at athletics?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Fingolfin
|
 |
Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
|
|
|
Although not from US, I have an answer: If you are black with top results, you are ours. If not, you are scum.
Those who are proud of what this country (US) represents and who this country unites, understand it well. However, they are not seen...
After an Olympic event the medals are counted, but no one asks how many of those medals went to Asians, Native-Americans, Afro-Americans representing certain country (in this case US).
Most people are good. I trust this. Another thing is, that those bad are much more clearly seen. One loud voice of hate is more obvious than a thousand silent supporters. The fact is (according to the psychologists) that those most loud doubt about themselves and hide their mistakes behind the hate.
And those flamers who hate black athletes; have they ever achieved something that remarkable. I doubt it.
Mark
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timmy, oddly enough, last night as I was watching an interview with the 3 black atheletes, right after their Gold, Silver and Bronze finish in the hurdles, I was asking myself the opposite question.
I was watching the interview and all 3 were asked what it meant to finish 1-2-3 for our country. They were all very happy and a little misty eyed but their responses were filled with absolute pride. I was watching and thinking to myself "How can they feel so proud to bring home a medal to a country that for the most part, treats them as second class citizens".
When I lived in the northeast, I was rarely around racial prejudices. Living here in Florida, it is an hourly occurence to hear racial remarks made.
To answer your question, I can only say "I'm not sure". Maybe they are just happy when America wins a medal and they instantly become colour blind. It sure would not be the first time that has happened here, unfortunately.
aqua
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We have many, many people in the United States. If you were talking about 1% of us Americans it would be many people. Even a half a percent. We may be electing a black president. I believe you can find many people in any nation that look at part of their population as second class no matter the color of their skin or how fast they run. Just how many is many?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
Aqua, I found your response very interesting and would like to expand on three points. You said, "When I lived in the northeast, I was rarely around racial prejudices." I grew up in So. Calif. and it was the same there. Even though we experienced riots in the 1960's there was for the most part racial harmony. Blacks, Latins, Asians were all my friends and neighbors.
You also said, "Living here in Florida, it is an hourly occurence to hear racial remarks made." which illustrates the vast differences that can be found throughout the country. Florida has been, historically, part of the south and the racial prejudice throughout that area is greater than any where else.
I do not agree with you when you said, "... a country that for the most part, treats them as second class citizens". In some areas, such as where you live now, that is true however, I don't think it is reflective of the majority of the country. Maybe that is more wishful thinking on my part, however.
Regarding Timmy's initial question, "how does the patriotic racist reconcile the inescapable fact that the black US citizen is damned good at athletics?". Only a racist can answer that. I'm stuck on the question of how can a racist reconcile his attitude towards other human beings?
JimB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear JimB, I am sorry for the mis-understanding about the "second class" statement. I do not know how to "quote" some one elses post and was trying to tie my post together in answer to Timmy's. I wanted to quote the last part of Timmy's first sentance. It was from that question that I formulated my post. Sorry for the mix-up.
aqua
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
How many is many?
Well, I think there is no answer to that save for "As many as you feel makes many."
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
No problem Aqua. Your comparison between the northeast and Florida was very significant. I have never lived where there was a lot of racial prejudice and since I don't expect to move again likely never will. However my sister lives near Tampa and the history between Tampa and St. Petersburg is very indicative of the south.
JimB
PS-I too have trouble with quoting on this message board (as opposed to others) and have reverted to simple copy and paste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
anyone tried the button "Quote message"?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The comment was made that someone didnt see any prejudice when they lived in the northeast. Thats because people in the northeast hide it and cover it up. They said they see a lot of racism in Florida. Most of the people in Florida came from the northeast. Yankees retire and move to florida or spend their winters there.
Blacks are good athletes. A gentleman named Jimmy the Greek said they were good because white farmers inbread them for certain characteristics, just like you do a prize horse or cattle. He paid a heavy price for that comment. He was ostrasized and banned from radio and TV. The point here is that what he said was true. He didnt make something up or say it to hurt black people, he mearly stated a fact when the question came up.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
timmy wrote:
> anyone tried the button "Quote message"?
I have used this before but had problems with long postings where I needed to insert comments within. I'll give it another try in the future.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I must be blind as a bat. I don't see any such button.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thank you Jim, I live in North-east St.Petersburg. I have been told since I moved here that "black people live 'on the south side' and you don't want to go there and they don't want you there". I thought the other person was joking, later I found out he wasn't.
aqua
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Roger, I remember the Jimmy the Greek scandal well. I also remember a Whoopi Goldberg comedy special where Whoopi asked the audiance what was wrong with Jimmy's statement. She said that he was exactly correct with his analagy and should have been left alone about the whole deal.
Also, you are correct about the make up of Florida's population. I have been here for over 3 years and have only met 3 people that are actually 'Florida born and raised'. In fact, I have met several people that grew up in the same neighbourhood as myself.
As far as the prejudice that I said I never saw, the city I come from outside of Boston has been an immigrant city for over 250 years. It was the largest mill city in America. Yes, there is prejudice there as, sadly there is everywhere but I never saw much of it and since I came from an immigrant family, I was taught that it was wrong to be that way.
aqua
Oh, there is the 'Quote message' button Timmy was talking about.
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
After you have pressed "Reply" on the "Reply to this message" screen to the right of all the face buttons. It will copy the entire contents of the post you are replying to into the "Message" area and precede it with the name of the writer. It doesn't show in the reply screen but the final product puts the "quoted" message in italics.
JimB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Roger said,
>Blacks are good athletes. A gentleman named Jimmy the Greek said they were good because white farmers inbread them for certain characteristics, just like you do a prize horse or cattle. He paid a heavy price for that comment. He was ostrasized and banned from radio and TV. The point here is that what he said was true. He didnt make something up or say it to hurt black people, he mearly stated a fact when the question came up.
Evidence, please?
If that were really the case it would apply only for American black people. But it also applies that African black people are innately better than white people in many sports, for genetic reasons that have nothing to do with inbreeding. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and if you're going to back him up I would expect you to have all manner of evidence to support your claim.
'Blacks are good athletes' is also an awkward blanket statement that attempts to collect all manner of different people together under one category. It's like saying 'whites are good gymnasts'. Well, I'm white and I'm a hopeless gymnast. Or 'gays are promiscuous'. I'm gay and I'm the absolute opposite. Some people are good gymnasts. Some people are good athletes. Some people are promiscuous. I wonder if you're not aware how potentially biased your words sound to other people who may not be used to lumping diverse individuals together in such a way.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Why?
Blacks ARE good athletes...
What's wrong with blacks being good athletes?
And gay's are promiscuous.
And white's are good gymnasts too.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB wrote:
> After you have pressed "Reply" on the "Reply to this message" screen to the right of all the face buttons. It will copy the entire contents of the post you are replying to into the "Message" area and precede it with the name of the writer. It doesn't show in the reply screen but the final product puts the "quoted" message in italics.
>
> JimB
Weeee... thanks! ;-D
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
“ The black is a better athlete to begin with because he's been bred to be that way — because of his high thighs and big thighs that goes up into his back, and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs. This goes back all the way to the Civil War when during the slave trading, the owner — the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid. ”
Deej, the preceeding quote is what Jimmy 'The Greek" Snyder said. I am quite sure that this was the main logic used by all slave owners the world over, not just the U.S.
aqua
There is a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than ten thousand tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
I would like to mention Kenyans, Ethiopians etc, whose athletic prowess is prodigious, and who are not US citizens. The "bred for it" argument can not hold true.
Also I was not heading down a "breeding" line, I was heading down a "racist who has to reconcile racism with patriotism" line.
There are, quite naturally, many more black folks who are not the least bit athletic than those who are athletic.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
You can snip parts of the quoted message, too.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Fingolfin
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: Slovakia
Registered: August 2008
Messages: 265
|
|
|
There may be truth everywhere in your statements...
Kenyans and Ethiopians are probably that good due to the fact, that as a youngsters they have to run several kilometers to school everyday, back and forth... that builds their stamina.
Black sprinters, well, a lot of training. By the way, does Tiger Woods look athletic? Have you ever seen Obama run a 100m sprint? I haven't.
It has also something to do with habits. Basketball players in NBA (the best) are black. So what? Tale a look at baseball. I assume that most players are white. Take ice-hockey. Black are only several handfuls. Take tennis, take whatever...
I try to say, that if you are a kid who wants to try a sport, you will be given advice like "Blacks are the best in sprints, you stand no chance..." etc., but you will hear as well "you can skate, you have fast hands, try ice-hockey".
I mean it is all about choice. And we make choices that are often influenced by others.
Marek
It is better to switch on a small light than to curse the darkness.
- Vincent Šikula, Slovak writer
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David, I was saying what Jimmy the Greek said, He was backed up by several well educated people of both races. Read Aqualino's post. There are record kept by slave owners during and befor the Civil War showing that blacks were bread with blacks to enhance certain characteristics. The effects of that breeding program can be seen even today altho it is becoming less than in the past. It is not a racest statement to tell the truth, that was what Whoopi Goldburge was saying.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
All of these statements are correct as it stands today. They are each true. We do, of course, have promiscuous str8 folk, that just doesn't get publicised.
In due time we may see a preponderance of Latin sprinters with blacks taking a back seat, but currently they dominate.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think "slave breeding" was all that common. There's no known instance of it in any of our family's slave records, and we owned 116 slaves in 1865. Were slaves "purpose bred?" I'm sure some slave owners and slave merchants did that, but did it create a sub-race of "super negros?" I don't think so, and even if it did the years of intermarriage since the Civil War ended would have diluted the "special gene pool."
I think one of the reasons that negros are represented in American sports to a degree greater than their percentage of the general population is because for many years being good at sports was a way up and out of the ghetto. After Robinson broke the color barrier in professional baseball, professional sports became a sort of leveling agent. American have always loved their sports heros, and in modern times this has come to mean black and white, and Latino and Asian athletes.
To me, the sad part of all this is that even today, black guys my age look to means other than education to raise themselves socially and economically.
As America changes dramatically in the next forty years, and as the white population becomes simply the largest minority instead of the majority, the influx of Latino and Asian immigrants who DO value education will combine with the white population in social and economic success. I think the blacks will probably remain at about 12-15% of the population, and remain at the lowest end of the social and economic scale.
I realize that was a harsh statement to make, but in my experience blacks are still wallowing in the trough of "victimhood" rather than moving forward. If Obama wins the election, and I hope he does, then suddenly the black Americans who believe they are still victims will have to find another excuse for their failure to advance. The best thing about an Obama victory will be that Jackson, Sharpton and the other "politicians of victimhood" will have to come up with a new song and dance routine.
Oh, yes. I used the word negro didn't I. Please, let's not get into another round of political correctness arguments about this, okay? Negros are negros, caucasians are caucasians, asians are asians.
[Updated on: Wed, 20 August 2008 11:46] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I agree with most of what you say, but just because your ancestors made no conscious attempt to "breed" good qualities into the slaves they had, does not mean it didn't occur even within the slaves they owned.
Ask yourself honestly this: If you were in the process of obtaining additional slaves, who would you pick out to work for you? Weak looking, short, small, thin, or large strong looking? I think that for the most part, what has been pointed out is that this process occured almost without any conscious effort. From the selection of captives in Africa to the inhuman way they were transported to this country would all lead to "selection of the fittest" as those who believe in evolution should surely admit to in this case.
I agree that the black population is gaining ground through those who do well in athletics. It was that way with the Irish before the 1900's when they were considered the "trash" of society. If you look into the history, you will see where the Irish were in back of numerous vicious gangs and were mostly despised by the rest of the population. They were given the worst jobs if they were hired and there are many similarities to what they went through to be accepted equally in society. From being the most lawless to being the epitome of a New York cop in about 50 or 60 years. I think a similar thing will happen with the black population when their own people become sick and tired of being the victims of so much crime just as it did with the Irish.
I make a conscious effort to try to keep my prejudices in check and not try to judge anyone before they interact with me. I may be more cautious when in a heavily black area, but I still will go there and go about my business. I use the same intuition about every place I go and will leave a entirely "white" bar as easily as I would any other, if I see trouble brewing. I try to avoid areas and places where drugs can be around as they are usually the same places where trouble occurs. I will just as often take up a conversation with a person of color sitting near me as anyone else and I figure they are being nice to talk to someone who is gay, so why not return the favor. Some of the nicest people I met on my long trip to New Zealand and Australia last winter were the local natives of those countries who were very willing to tell me about past struggles within the country. All I met were quite nice to me and I tried to be a good memory in their mind as well. My host in NZ was Chinese and I got along really well with his parents. I came away with even more friends than when I started and that is the idea isnt it?
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is nothing wrong with black people being good athletes, Marc. I never suggested anything to the contrary -- and would never do so.
You evidently didn't understand the point of the paragraph, which is that lumping people together in one category is rarely a good thing. I think we should celebrate the individual, regardless of race, not make generalisations about the race from a few individuals, and that applies regardless of whether that generalisation is a positive or negative one. All too frequently it is a negative one.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Roger,
>The effects of that breeding program can be seen even today altho it is becoming less than in the past.
I have to say that unqualified statements like that make me very uneasy. How can it be seen? I imagine you're not implying that black people who win races have superior genetics only because they were bred that way? There are far more black people in the world who were American slaves, you know, and many of those are also superb Olympic athletes.
Just because a white person said one thing, and a black person made light of it, doesn't mean it's true for more than a very tiny number of American athletes. I'd like to see some references that are more than anecdotal. It isn't racist to tell the truth, but it is to repeat a half-truth (should it prove to be so) that could easily be seen as offensive.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David, go to an american library, or maybe even a British one, they may have copys, and look up slave records from southern plantations and also records from slave traders. Im not agreeing with the practice but it did occure.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think that's a useful answer, Roger. Almost any query on any subject can be countered by 'look it up'. In any case, I sincerely doubt that it would help. I don't deny that slave traders may have had an interest in the way their slaves bred, horrible though the idea is. What I am concerned about is your claim that black people's success in athletics is the result of white people's breeding programs. Anecdotal evidence from shamed commentators counts for very little indeed.
Either black people in America are very different from black people in the rest of the world, or there is no real evidence in favour of that idea. In either case, you're the one upon whom the burden of proof falls.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Well damn it all !!!!!!!!
Of course they are different from black people in the rest of the world.
[Updated on: Wed, 20 August 2008 20:23]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear Ken and Jon,
I don't know how many generations it would take of selective breeding for one to have even a 10% better chance of getting someone taller or faster or stronger than the average. My guess is that the time that slaves were held in the USA was far too short for a noticeable effect.
If natural selection has the effect Darwin supposed then the consequence of Africa (well most of it) having a few generations more of natural selection before civilisation began to interfere and keep alive the weak children and so on - well that might have had an effect - but I doubt it.
And, of course it is easy to overestimate the length of time that 'civilisation' has really been affecting the breed. I rather doubt whether medicine was good enough to have much effect before the second world war.
The howls of rage that arise whenever anyone suggests that there is a racial difference in intelligence seem to me to be more political correctness than well-founded. It isn't just beauty that lies in the eye of the beholder!
Love,
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What a silly reply! I said very different, not just different, and I was talking physiologically. Everyone in the US, except for Native Americans, has ancestors from outside the continent. The couple of centuries since the country was founded haven't changed that at all.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Actually, the Native Americans are migratory as well....
isn't that silly?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ha ha, that wonderful word 'actually', that allows the person who uses it to maintain that he has turned the argument to his advantage even when picking a hole in an irrelevant point! Actually, I think you'll find, the air speed velocity of African swallows may be greater than that of European swallows! Even when carrying coconuts!
Since we're all of the same species, we all migrated from a single point. That's obvious. But the Native Americans have been on the continent a great deal longer than any person of modern European, African or other non-North American descent. Sufficiently long that it's very difficult to trace back their culture to other continents, whereas for those whose ancestors emigrated to America within the last few hundred years, it's comparatively easy.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not really sure that the concept of "African", let alone African-American, is at all meaningful in this context.
The genetic diversity in the African continent is immense. It's pretty generally accepted that modern humans outside Africa all derive from a small band who "migrated" some 60,000 years ago. This seems to have been an effective genetic filtering device - at any rate, there is a much lower diversity among non-Africans.
To put this in perspective, a Japanese and a Norwegian are genetically closer than a Nilotic African and a Mbuti pygmy are, though both are "black africans".
As regards "African-Americans", I suspect that they have a very different range of genotypes than Africans, due partly to the limited geographical areas from which slaves were removed, the extreme "sorting effect" of slave transport ships where death rates of 50 or 60% were not uncommon, and the fact that the offspring of slaves and "whites" were historically classified as "black".
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
 |
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Not THAT difficult in this case. Native Americans seem to be closely related to the Native people of Japan (Ainu) and the native people of Kamchatka.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
"Largest minority", this is called a plurality in many cases.
Or it is called a "majority" with a majority over 50% being called an "absolute majority".
I understand what you mean, though. 45% is not really a majority, but it is still bigger than 20%, 15% and 10%...
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
This discussion reminds me of a resolution the "Queer" Socialist Left faction tried to pass at our student Union last year. "That there are no biological differences between men and women".
Blacks are better runners, as are men. Whites and men are better weightlifters and swimmers.
Whatever the reason, there are biological differences.
But individuals should still be judged on their merit. If a white CAN beat a black at running, or if a male is a better nurse than a female, they should not be precluded from the opportunity to prove their ability.
In my opinion it is fine to stereotype provided that isn't used as an excuse to exclude someone due to prejudgement of their capacity.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not THAT difficult, no, particularly now that we have genetic testing. But difficult enough that we certainly can't say, "this particular individual came across with this group of known individuals", which we can in many cases for the ancestors of modern Americans. I understand that native Americans would have crossed at least twelve thousand years ago, which is nearly two orders of magnitude further back. Over here in Europe there was virtually no culture worth speaking of back then -- I don't know about Japan or Kamchatka at that time, but I'd assume the same.
David
[Updated on: Wed, 20 August 2008 23:09] |
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
Re: The USA and its athletes 
Re: The USA and its athletes 
