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My old school has recently e-mailed all the Old Boys (OW's), as well as all current pupils, parents, staff, to say that it is in the process of deciding to take girls in the Sixth Form*, after some 500 years of being a single-sex school. The School invited comments on this.
(*the last two years of school, before college / university)
It's something I'm pretty much in favour of: I think the artificial segregation of the sexes does little good for the boys. However, I do have some concerns about the transition period ...
It seems to me that, as a gay adolescent in the early 1970s, I would probably have found that it gave added weight to the pressures of heterosexual conformity. However my experience of school is long ago, and things have changed, and the school is no longer quite as inept at pastoral care as it was in my day.
So, would it be appropriate for me to comment on the proposal, suggesting that the School needs to pay particular attention to their gay / bisexual pupils (and, in due course, lesbian), and ensure that it is seen as a "safe space". Decent anti-bullying policies, encouraging gay staff to be out, checking that the PHSE curriculum is up to snuff, that invited speakers at careers events who are out and gay feel able to refer to that fact ... that kind of thing ?
Any how did any of us who attended "mixed" (co-ed) schools in the sixth form find it? Or any who taught in such establishments?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Mine too, NW and I don't know what to think of it. My school was only founded in 1828 'for the sons of non-conformists' (so no tradition at all worth mentioning!).
I get its newsletters and magazines. The school play last year was 'Bent' which I think speaks volumes. But I haven't had the courage or gall or whatever it takes to write and ask about the things you mention.
And for the whole of my time in the Senior School the headmaster was C S Walton who was homosexual, although we didn't know it at the time. The term after I left (which was in December 1952) he hanged himself and I think it was because he could no longer restrain himself from putting his hands on the prettier boys. But I have no allies in this conjecture that I know of.
If you do write, I'd be very glad to hear about the response. If you can do it so could I and I might just follow your example (if you set a good one!).
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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I think any school that goes for a "mixed 6th form" has lost its way. This is the politics of tokenism. What it means is that it still thinks it has sufficient catchment area for boys, but that the male pupils are too stupid to be allowed to fill the 6th form alone. Thus it is neither fish nor fowl.
Yes, most assuredly to write to them about PSE etc. Put it forcefully.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
(snip)
> What it means is that it still thinks it has sufficient catchment area for boys, but that the male pupils are too stupid to be allowed to fill the 6th form alone.
Probably not in this case - the school is still in the upper part of the top 100 of all UK schools by exam results, and there's an equally good girls school just up the road.
I think it more likely that it's to do with a recent change of Master: the last one saw through dangerous innovations like the abolition of the Boarding House, re-introduction of a junior school (under-11's), and the cessation of Saturday Morning School (0845-1255: I used to loathe it!). The new Master would have to do something to make his own mark in turn!
Various people have suggested to me that the presence of girls is likely to benefit gay/bi boys, as they feel that girls are in general more accepting than boys are. Looking back on my own adolescence, I think it was pretty true then - I wonder if it still is?
> Yes, most assuredly to write to them about PSE etc. Put it forcefully.
I've decided to take this opportunity to write to them. I'm not exactly sure about "forcefully" - I think my own style is more "polite but definite". But I've been encouraged by the e-mails I've exchanged with a couple of other old boys of the same institution (one my age, one twenty years younger).
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I agree, NW that the presence of girls may make it easier for gays. It would be good if the school would commit itself to tolerance and appropriate anti-discrimination procedures.
And there is another potential benefit for people like me who, in the absence of girls, couldn't really know whether they were gay or just randy! But of course if the girls refused me sex I might still have tried boys and not known fully why I did! Isn't life complicated?
Interestingly, the school my daughters both work at, which has been a girls' school for ages and has fairly recently taken boys in the sixth form, has decided to take boys throughout and to adopt the policy of teaching the sexes together when the subject suits and apart when it doesn't.
The competition for pupils in Bristol is pretty intense!
Love,
Anthony
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I’m on the outside looking in on this and I’m not sure if this hasn’t been mentioned, but I would think this has more to do with the coin of the realm and acquiring as much of it with out prejudice as they can to keep their doors open?
Am I just way of the mark on this?
;-D
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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It usually is, Rich.
My old school ran short of 6th form boys. 6th form is, for our US friends, the two most senior years in that particular school system, ages 17/18. So it opened the doors to token girls, about 25% of the 6th form boys, but enough to fund the place.
Later it decided to go fully co-educational. Years later.
Now, ignoring entirely whether single sex or co-ed is right (and there are persuasive arguments on each side) my old school had become distinctly mediocre. It was running out of pupils and the peculiarly English trend of boarding was falling out of favour because of the mediocrity. It was far cheaper to increase the catchment area by opening the entire school up as a co-ed establishment than to raise academic standards.
They have also made some effort to increase standards, but actually choose to hold the brightest kids back rather than get the most out of them. I know this because I asked!
My own son went where Deej went. That school has different advantages and disadvantages. But it suited mine well, and my old one was... well... awful.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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Which subjects require segregation?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I think some sciences, because the boys try to dominate the girls and grab the best equipment and so on. Maths too I believe. I'm not sure about biology.
Modern foreign languages are better mixed.
I understand it's called the diamond model for co-ed education.
Love,
Anthony
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Arich, you have beaten me to it. I recognise little of the foregoing conversation. I served at a school where first girls were admitted to the sixth form, then throughout the school. It was dressed up nicely as what society looks for these days and how parents like to send all their children to the same school, but there was rarely any honesty about the process, that it was driven by the bottom line and that in reality we were poaching from our so called sister school.
Worse than the introduction of girl pupils was the necessitated arrival of women members of staff who had their own agenda and were more ruthless than men in pushing it through. That changed the atmosphere more than anything else. Add to that a randy headmaster who promoted more on the grounds of the shape of their tits and bums than their ability to do the job, there was a recipe for internal strife. The irony was that he had a big fall out with his deputy (nicknamed Cavewoman by the pupils to give an idea of her lack of qualification in that area) because she had real intellectual ability and was disliked intensely by his light weight female acolytes.
As for hoping that the presence of girls will make life easier for any gay boy pupils, forget it. It's an irrelevance to them. Girls will be a distraction to the boys and in an average year group might even make them look second rate in the classroom because of the different way they work, because the present exam system better suits the way girls work and think and because there is always the danger that the girls will get preferential treatment and the co-ed system has to be made and seen to work. The above is the result of experience, not theoretical thinking.
We have lost the idea that a schools are there for learning. They have become social engineering centres, independent schools social engineering centres based on finance. Boys and girls going through adoescence to adulthood learn better separately. In their free time let them socialise together as much or as little as they wish. It was interesting to note that at breaks and at lunch, the sexes by and large segregated themselves.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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In general agreement with that, Anthony, but would probably add English language while English literature would be better mixed. PE would provide a fruitful discussion area beyond team games.
Btw, watch Alan Bennett's 'History Boys'. That could not have worked with a mixed class.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nigel wrote:
(snip)
> Worse than the introduction of girl pupils was the necessitated arrival of women members of staff who had their own agenda and were more ruthless than men in pushing it through. That changed the atmosphere more than anything else.
I find that a really interesting observation, in that my old school has had women staff members in significant numbers since the late 1980s. The fully-independent Boys Public School up the road had women teachers even longer - my mother was the first full-time such, back in 1975.
I agree that the introduction of women teachers is probably at least as significant an event in a (boys) school as the introduction of girls to the sixth form. But I am very strongly in favour of it. Men who have difficulty with women bosses are - in my experience - almost exclusively products of all-male schools. In my experience as an employer in the real world, they can present a real problem in attempting to run an effective and efficient organisation.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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arich wrote:
> I’m on the outside looking in on this and I’m not sure if this hasn’t been mentioned, but I would think this has more to do with the coin of the realm and acquiring as much of it with out prejudice as they can to keep their doors open?
>
> Am I just way of the mark on this?
> ;-D
I do seriously doubt whether this is the main motive: the School was the "The Sunday Times Independent Secondary School of the Year" in 2008, and previously was so in 2004. It certainly doesn't currently lack applicants of a suitable standard (as a highly-academic and successful school situated in the heart of Oxford, England it probably never will), so money is unlikely IMO to be a significant pressing reason - though of course admitting girls probably won't damage the income in the long term, either.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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NW wrote:
> ... Men who have difficulty with women bosses are - in my experience - almost exclusively products of all-male schools. In my experience as an employer in the real world, they can present a real problem in attempting to run an effective and efficient organisation.
That is interesting. As a product of a single sex school I detailed my bosses somewhere else. I have had no trouble with them, but they appear to have had trouble with me. But so have useless male bosses!
I never realised that there were difficulties until they came to a head in each case. Perhaps that is the distinguishing feature?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Here in the US, single sex schools are an oddity. If it weren't for the girls, I would have likely completed school without ever having had a friend. Girls were always easy to talk to and they were fun. On the other hand, I was tongue-tied when I tried talking to boys. With boys, I always had to be careful lest they see that I lusted after them. With girls things were easy because there were no sexual overtones to the relationship. I'm certain a mixed environment gives a gay boy a much better chance to fit into a social group. Its probably opposite for hetero boys, like Nigel intimates. But I think the gay boys need a break here: a unisex school would have to be hell for them, as I see it.
Hugs all around.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Yes, I have. Although I was best at science and maths my father persuaded me to specialise in History and English!
I really enjoyed that film.
Love,
Anthony
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I don't know about 'lost the idea that schools are there for learning', Nigel. I have sympathy with those that dislike the pressures of the systems we have now but I think that the strength of the old was the amount of scope it gave for imaginative teachers to do things to engage their pupils.
For example, the morning after George VI died our history master took the whole class to St James' Palace to hear the proclamation of Queen Elizabeth.
Amazingly the courtyard of the palace was uncrowded and so I am one of a very few who actually heard her proclaimed.
Of course the danger is that allowing teachers scope also gives room for bad teachers to get away with it. And I think it is really important that the good teachers have scope and that the bad teachers are spotted and replaced or retrained or whatever.
And, of course I have no experience of co-ed school or university except when I was a school governor and we rarely got close enough to any teaching to see anything worth mentioning.
But children make friends with children of their parents friends or with other pupils at school and I really don't think it was good for me that I reached the age of 25 without ever having a single female friend. Maybe it didn't make any difference - I think I would probably still have been gay - but even gay people benefit from having friends they don't lust after!
And I think schools were always for a lot more than learning. They were for making friends, for getting experience in life, for self-discovery and self-control (when I was young I found it hard to control my temper) and for lots of other things. I suspect the English public school system was really designed to extend puberty into early manhood, for example.
A fascinating subject. I'd like to talk to you about it.
Love,
Anthony
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Well said, NW. I remember a reorganisation at Watford Computer Centre - it must have been late sixties - when the MD actually took me into a conference room and asked me whether I would have any problems reporting to a woman. He proposed to give me Mary Proctor as a boss. I was simply amazed that he felt the need to do that.
But men don't have a monopoly of the bad managers and Sylvia encountered a few women managers whose view of management was that it was an unstructured heap and you had to scrabble and tread on people to work your way to the top.
Love,
Anthony
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No, Macky, very far from hell. With the same size classes there would be twice as many candidates for a close friendship in your class as at a co-ed school. And if you were gay the fact that more or less everyone is randy at that age gives a higher proportion of available people too.
But as I've said elsewhere the English public school system seems well designed to postpone adulthood and in my own case I wasn't aware I was gay until after I left school - almost on my 18th birthday.
Love,
Anthony
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I hope this isn't too long but it summarises the new law as it now is since April 2007. It is only just beginning to sink in in some schools believe me.
paul
The Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007
Guidance for Schools
The Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 (“the regulations”) came into effect at the end of April 2007. They make discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation unlawful in a number of areas including education in schools and provide individuals with the right to seek damages and redress through the courts if they believe they have been discriminated against because of their sexual orientation.
The purpose of this guidance is to explain how the law applies to schools. It should not be confused with guidance on best practice in handling issues around sexual orientation (such as delivering sex and relationship education or dealing with homophobic bullying) which is to be found in other sources, some of which are referred to here.
As part of the Children’s Plan we have given a commitment to review best practice in sex and relationship education (SRE) and how it is delivered in schools. We recognise that many young people feel that they do not currently have the knowledge and skills they need to make safe and responsible choices about relationships and sexual health. The review will be chaired at Ministerial level and will involve young people fully to make sure that in future SRE better meets their needs.
How is discrimination defined?
Direct discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation happens when a person is treated less favourably than another person is, or would be, treated in the same circumstances, and that treatment is because of their sexual orientation, perceived sexual orientation, or that of a person with whom he or she is associated – such as a parent.
Indirect discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation happens where a provision, criterion or practice is applied to everyone, but it has the effect of putting a person of a particular sexual orientation at a disadvantage – and it cannot be reasonably justified by reference to considerations other than sexual orientation.
Victimising someone by treating them less favourably because of anything they have done or intend to do in relation to these regulations such as making a complaint or giving evidence for a complainant, is also unlawful discrimination.
What do the regulations cover?
The regulations make it unlawful for a school to discriminate against a person:
• in the terms on which it offers to admit him or her as a pupil
• by refusing to accept an application to admit him or her as a pupil
• in the way in which a pupil is afforded access to any benefit, facility or service
• by refusing access to any benefit, facility or service
• by excluding him or her
• by subjecting him or her to any other detriment.
To whom do the regulations apply and how are they enforced?
All maintained and special schools and Academies and independent schools in England and Wales, and all public, grant-aided and independent schools in Scotland, are covered by the regulations, which also make it unlawful for a local authority to discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation in the exercise of their functions. The responsible body in maintained schools will be the governing body and in independent schools it will be the Proprietor.
Discrimination is unlawful in civil law rather than being a criminal offence. A person who believes that he or she has been discriminated against unlawfully may bring a case to a county court, which can award damages, including compensation for injury to feelings. A court could also make a quashing order (quashing the unlawful decision and requiring the body to retake the decision), a prohibitory order (forbidding the performance of an unlawful act) or a mandatory order (requiring certain actions to be taken); it can declare what the law is by declaring that a decision is unlawful; and it can grant an injunction.
Implications for Schools
General
Schools that already employ non-discriminatory practices and adhere to DCSF guidance should already be acting within the spirit and letter of the Regulations.
Schools will need to make sure that gay, lesbian or bi-sexual pupils, or the children of gay, lesbian or bi-sexual parents, are not singled out for different and less favourable treatment from that given to other pupils. They should check that there are no practices which could result in unfair, less favourable treatment of such pupils. They will need to ensure that homophobic bullying is taken as seriously and dealt with as firmly as bullying on any other ground. But all of this should already be established practice in schools.
Admissions
The School Admissions Code, which applies to all maintained schools and Academies, already prohibits any discrimination on the basis of a pupil’s or parent's sexuality, or indirect discrimination by, for example, giving priority to pupils whose parents are married. Should such arrangements be proposed the LA would be under a duty to object to them and parents would also have the power to object. Any objection to arrangements prohibited by the Code would be upheld by the Schools Adjudicator.
Should a parent, carer or child believe they have nonetheless been discriminated against, on the grounds of their sexual orientation, and have not been offered a place at a school they preferred through the admissions process, the parent or carer could appeal to the independent admission appeals panel. The appeals panel has the power to award a place at the school. It is worth noting that as a school's admission arrangements cannot lawfully include criteria that discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation, the admission authority would also have failed in its further legal duty to apply its published admission arrangements.
Under these new Sexual Orientation regulations, the parent or carer or child could also or alternatively seek redress through the courts for any discrimination in both maintained and independent schools. A court would have the power both to quash the decision not to award a school place and to award damages for the discrimination itself.
The Regulations would also apply to discriminatory behaviour in the arrangements surrounding the admissions process, such as open evenings and published material. Schools should be careful to avoid any possible implication that they are seeking to deter applications on grounds of the sexual orientation of a potential pupil or that of his or her parents or carers.
Teaching and the Curriculum
Where schools are complying with existing guidance in the area of Personal, Social and Health Education (PSHE) and Sex and Relationship Education (SRE) the regulations should have no effect on teaching and the curriculum in schools. The PSHE and SRE guidance makes clear that it should meet the needs of all young people, whatever their developing sexuality, family circumstances or cultural background. It also sets out that decisions on detailed content of SRE should be taken at local level, in consultation with parents, to take account of the specific needs and circumstances of pupils and that schools can exercise appropriate flexibility to ensure that it can be taught in a way that is relevant and appropriate to the school's ethos. If schools continue to adhere to this guidance, dealing sensitively and appropriately with issues around sexuality, then they should not fall foul of the regulations. Schools should, nonetheless, make sure that they do not discriminate in delivering any part of the school curriculum or extra-curricular offer. So, for example, they must not prevent a pupil from taking part in a residential school trip because he is, or is perceived to be, gay, or make a pupil get changed for P.E separately from the other boys because he is gay, or prevent a girl from being head prefect because she is a lesbian.
Independent Schools
Whilst the guidance available in relation to Personal, Social and Health Education and that for Sex and Relationship Education sets out the requirements for maintained schools, it also provides useful guidance for independent schools and should help prevent independent schools from falling foul of the new regulations
Discipline and exclusions
Schools are already bound by discipline and exclusion policies and any sanctions should therefore be fair and not differentiated by sexual orientation. If any acts committed by homosexual pupils were treated differently from those of other pupils by way of discipline or exclusion, then this could amount to direct discrimination under the regulations.
Ensuring compatibility with Religious Freedom
Protection in the area of discrimination on grounds of religion or belief and the right to manifest one’s religion or belief has already been addressed in part 2 of the Equality Act 2006, under which these further regulations are made. Many people’s views on sexual orientation/sexual activity are themselves grounded in religious belief. Some schools with a religious character (referred to in this guidance as faith schools) have concerns that they may be prevented from teaching in line with their religious ethos. Teachers have expressed concerns that they may be subject to legal action if they do not voice positive views on same sex relationships, whether or not this view is based on their faith. There are also concerns that faith schools may teach and act in ways unacceptable to lesbian, gay and bi-sexual pupils and parents when same sex relationships are discussed because there are no express provisions to prevent this occurring.
Faith schools, like all schools, have a responsibility for the welfare of the children in their care and to adhere to curriculum guidance. It is not the intention of the regulations to undermine their position as long as they continue to uphold their responsibilities in these areas. If their beliefs are explained in an appropriate way in an educational context that takes into account existing guidance on the delivery of SRE and RE, then schools should not be acting unlawfully. However, if a school conveyed its belief in a way that involved haranguing, harassing or berating a particular pupil or group of pupils then this would be unacceptable in any circumstances and might constitute unlawful discrimination under these regulations.
Where individual teachers are concerned, having a view about something does not amount to discrimination. So it should not be unlawful for a teacher in any school to express personal views on sexual orientation provided that it is done in an appropriate manner and context (for example when responding to questions from pupils, or in an RE or PSHE lesson). However, it should be remembered that school teachers are in a very influential position and their actions and responsibilities are bound by much wider duties than this legislation. A teacher’s ability to express his or her views should not extend to allowing them to discriminate against others, for example, by behaving in the way described at the end of the previous paragraph.
This guidance sets out the position on the extent of these regulations only. However, as pointed out already, it must be remembered that schools also have many other duties, including their duty of care to their pupils, and their duty to deliver key areas of the curriculum such as religious education, sex and relationship education, and preventing and responding to homophobic bullying - new guidance on which has just been published and can be viewed at .http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/wholeschool/behaviour/tacklingbullying/safetolearn/.
Schools must continue to uphold these relevant duties, observe the appropriate guidance in these areas and should look at the Sexual Orientation Regulations alongside them.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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Long, yes. But important enough to read every word. It says what we all know intellectually, but people may deny emotionally.
The one area that is interesting is changing for games.
A heterosexual pupil is not naked with pupils of the opposite sex, pupils who may well be attractive to them. A homosexual pupil is naked with members of the same sex, but those pupils may well be attractive to them.
I can see that it might be possible to argue that no pupil should be expected to change for games or be naked when in the presence of a person who might find them sexually attractive.
But that goes back to excessive body conciousness and shyness. The words "Get over it" are really appropriate here.
[Updated on: Sun, 15 March 2009 13:50]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Long, Paul, but good to read if the words say what they mean. Maybe something is really being done about it.
When I was a governor in the local secondary state school I took part in the discussions on the school's anti-bullying policy and formed the opinion that it was really designed to cover the teachers' back more than to stop bullying.
For example very little effort was made to record or review instances of bullying.
The play that Stonewall have sponsored in some schools has been well received and I heard they hoped to produce it as a DVD. If you are interested in their "Education for all" initiative then here is a link:
I'm grateful for the pointer. Without you I wouldn't have seen that.
Love,
Anthony
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Which is why as part of Stonewalls Education for all campaign the poster and stickers all adopt this theme
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Now, I am surprised that you were not aware of the new act. It was very much created after the major survey by Stonewall about the bullying present in many of British Schools. The full report may be found here
http://www.stonewall.org.uk/education_for_all/
I am also a little surprised that no one seems to have noticed a similarity in a certain member os staffs name, and his attitudes.. in my story being published on the site... or perhaps that was a "bridge too far"?
Sorry...
Paul
;-D
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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Arrrrghhh. Now I'm going to have to read it for details instead of for enjoyment! I may have to kill you now.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Might be a good idea if you waited till I finished it?
paul
::-)
But try chapter 15.....;-D
[Updated on: Sun, 15 March 2009 16:31] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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It will have to be the death of a thousand edits, then!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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I am so happy to see that banner. I never knew about it nor about the resources. I've added it to http://tinyurl.com/cxruy4 at the foot of the page.
It gets a little traffic. About two visits per normal day. Because it's a serious article it may change some minds. It may also reinforce existing prejudices, but the seed will still have been sown.
I never knew I was quoting from it. It just felt right in the post.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi Anthony!
I think it is a question of emphasis. The school is there for lots of things and in contrast to say the German and French systems the traditional English system of education is liberal. What I am saying is that whatever else may go on in a school its raison d'être is learning. Everything else is secondary. It certainly is not there for Marxist type social engineering.
I have experience from within the German system albeit in Austria. Gymnastics was tolerated on the timetable, limited to one period a week plus a week's Schikurs once a year. If you wanted competitive sport you joined a club, but of course you had your afternoons free to do so. You made your social contacts through your family rather than school, although I admit from what I saw that was more theory than practice. Btw I taught at Herbert von Karajan's old school.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Such a raft of regulations makes my heart sink. Whatever happened to the common sense and humanity of the traditional schoolmaster?
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nigel wrote:
> Such a raft of regulations makes my heart sink. Whatever happened to the common sense and humanity of the traditional schoolmaster?
Leaving aside "common sense" (of which I take a very dim view), there always were, and are, and will be, schoolteachers who possess humanity and wisdom enough to encourage their pupils to achieve their best in both personal and educational fields.
But these always were, and are, and will be in a minority, I think. I've talked about this at various times in my life with several generations of schoolteachers in my family - back as far as my great-grandmother, who started teaching in the 1890s. Like all structured professions (medicine, the Church, etc) teaching has always tended to attract more than its fair share of the socially inadequate, who rely on a rigid hierarchical setting in order to cope ... as well as attracting the truly dedicated. That was certainly true of the school I worked for some years in the late '70s, as well as the school I attended.
And, actually, if a teacher possesses the qualities of humanity, wisdom, and the ability to inspire others, it doesn't really matter what setting they are working in, or what defects there may otherwise be in their character. The best teacher I ever had, had the "minor character defect" of enjoying beating little boys bottoms. Fair do, the rules were set and it was up to us not get caught: it certainly didn't stop him being a superb teacher both in the classroom and out of it.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Yes, NW, I think I know what you think about 'common sense'. My mother always ascribed any particularly unjustifiable view she had to 'common sense' (after which no justification was required - or possible).
But you made me think about my teachers and which of them were really good; it is very difficult who to choose and why. I am inclined to think the one that was best for me was also the one who I felt cared about me. I wonder whether that was what I needed.
Certainly the one who got the best exam results (and the one I knew best of all, because he was my form teacher for the last two years) was not the best teacher. What he did was analyse the past exam papers, knowing the subject well he was able to give us a list of topics and the main six points of each (which would enable the least academic to pass the exam). And they did. But he admitted that he went into teaching because he liked playing tennis and wanted an easy life. He was a good coach but I'm afraid I despised him for that motive.
Love,
Anthony
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acam wrote:
(snip)
> If you do write, I'd be very glad to hear about the response. If you can do it so could I and I might just follow your example (if you set a good one!).
Well, I did write along the lines I previously posted, being extremely supportive of the proposal to take girls in the VIth, but with the caveat that gay/bi boys (and ultimately lesbians & bi girls) might have particular pastoral and support needs which it would be important not to overlook.
I got the reply this morning:
"thank you so much for your email and your support - your caveat is noted but i would like to assure you we take very seriously the needto maintain a caring, tolerant and inclusive culture as well as high academic standards
regards"
I'm back at the school on 4th July, when my year group will be playing their annual cricket match against whatever scratch team of choristers and staff can be found to provide a suitably low level of challenge, and the AGM of the old boys association. It will be interesting to see if this contentious issue provokes a higher attendance than the fifteen or so regular attenders! At least one person is not at all happy - http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/4202241._School_will_forfeit_my_legacy_for_going_co_ed_/?action=complain&cid=7585260
And yes, for those who notice such things, the date does clash with the London Pride March this year, so alas I won't be going. I feel a bit bad about that, but I think both that my presence will count more at the AGM than at Pride, and that I don't want to miss seeing my schoolmates (who are now strung all over the globe - Benin, Bermuda, the Dordogne, Paris, etc) for our regular get-together ... we've been doing it for a dozen years now (and it's 37 years since most of us left school).
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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NW, although I didn't know until I read the newspaper article just now, I suspected your school was MCS, mainly through a present member of staff I know. Inconsequential perhaps, but interesting to me.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nigel wrote:
> NW, although I didn't know until I read the newspaper article just now, I suspected your school was MCS, mainly through a present member of staff I know. Inconsequential perhaps, but interesting to me.
Yup, and in some ways I'm a pretty typical Old Waynflete, as we're known: the School has a bit of reputation for encouraging the unconventional, giving them a chance to find out who they are and pick up a few exams along the way ... and then find itself almost entirely unable to handle the results! At least, this was true at the end of the 60s and start of the 70s, though probably less so nowadays.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Well, NW, I think I support the change. Interestingly my own old school (University College School) is also going co-ed and without (as far as I know) anything like as much controversy. But it was always good at pastoral care and Stephen Spender, who went there, called it "Gentlest of schools".
It is also noticeably open minded as last year one of the plays they put on was "Bent" by Martin Sherman about homosexuals in the concentration camps.
I thought of you as I crossed The Plain on my way to my gaudy last weekend!
Love,
Anthony
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NW, I like the picking a few exams up on the way. It's one of the top academic schools. lol
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Well, Nigel, one thought I had was that parents of boys might send them to a co-ed school in the hope that they would be less likely to end up gay.
Of course that might be misguided. Maybe the presence or absence of girls would make no difference. As you say, though, "The History Boys" could not have been the same in a mixed sixth form. Girls would only be a distraction to some boys - I suppose. I suspect I'd have made friends with some and would have discovered I was gay younger!
But that is irrelevant to the question whether parents could have that motive. And I can't think of a way of finding out!
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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We chose the school for our son based on the education it provided. One was co-ed, one had token girls in the 6th form, and one was single sex. That was happenstance.
I think pretty much all parents are the same, unless, of course, they are of the "They'll go where I went" thinking.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Hi NW,
Single-sex vs co-ed schools is a very hot topic in education these days. It is one that I have been researching as I have begun work towards my PhD. There are advantages to both. Studies have shown that boys in single-sex schools are more likely to participate in extra-curricular activities that are frequently viewed as being for girls in coed schools. Activities like the debate team, drama club, band, student government that show little to no participation from boys in coed settings are of course filled with boys in single-sex schools and the boys have a much more positive experience with these activities because there is less negative reaction from their peers.
Oddly enough, boys tend to make better grades in English and reading classes when there are girls present, but not in other classes. Of course the opportunity for social interaction increases in coed settings.
The literature is conflicing on the benefits of same-sex teachers, but most research shows there is a positive benefit to having male role models for boys. Coed schools tend to have a far less percentage of male teachers, therefore fewer male role models.
Just a bit of what I've found in the literature so far.
Think good thoughts,
e
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