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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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We do not have a monopoly on being correct. Even 5+5 only equals 10 in base 10 arithmetic, so statements that we make as a self evident truth actually reflect a conditional truth.
So I am often very frustrated here when we, myself sometimes included, make statements of truth that are not correct from another person's standpoint.
So by what right do we declare that our arguments are correct?
I have long held the view that this is not a place of debate, but is a place of discussion. Even that is not a truth. I cannot always make it so, thus it is a conditional truth, conditional upon my actions and your actions. But it is my will that it is so, as much as possible.
Our role, here, each of us, is not to roll over and play dead when argued against, but to use coherent and persuasive arguments to seek to alter the view of those with whom we discuss. Equally we are not to steamroller all other views.
If we are hurt by someone we have a right to say so. If we have hurt someone we have a duty to make amends, and our duty is to do both with as good a grace as we can muster, and, ideally, gentle words, all the harder to achieve if we are hurt. A failure on either side hurts this place.
And this place is not as it should be. It has often been happy and vibrant. It has often dealt with difficult subjects, and had good disagreements. It has often helped people.
But, at present, it is not happy, not vibrant, deals with no subjects and helps no-one.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Timmy,
We are all sad when anyone here is hurt. But, as you say, things like that are unavoidable and I do think everyone tries to muster as much grace as they can in dealing with disagreements. Sometimes it just takes some time. As you know, you and I had some hurtful exchanges when I came here. But now I find myself glad that we worked through them, and I enjoy our exchanges quite a bit.
Maybe we need a discussion of what everyone likes about this forum, and what they would like to see improved. Maybe following some of the guidelines of creating a corporate Strategic Plan might yield ideas as to goals and methods.
Personally, the most important thing about this forum to me is that there are so many married gay guys here. And you can't find that kind of group anywhere else that I know of.
Macky
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Timmy, I hope I have not caused too much consternation, you know though I seldom speak I have been here since the beginning of APOS board, and wish to be able to continue to visit this place for years to come.
If I have disrupted this place I most humbly apologize.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Feel free to hold that discussion 
I designed and intended the place as "come all you who are hurting and learn to heal others and yourselves"
I do not want that ever to change, but there is huge scope within it to create a good thing. Married and Gay is but one arena.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I'm not going to acknowledge individual feelings of the need to apologise to others. If I do that the very general nature of my perceived problem will become pointed and personal. So forgive me if I am ambiguous in my reply.
[Updated on: Tue, 28 April 2009 16:30]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy, I think you are striving for the impossible. You want this to be a place where people come for help. Fair enough, but is that going to make it vibrant? I doubt it. People who are hurting are not going to be vibrant.
You want discussion. Okay, but if you have discussion you are going to have disagreement and if people are passionate about what they are discussing, passion is an emotion and incompatible with cold logic.
The following quotation from Orson Welles in 'The Third Man' might be helpful: »In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo Da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love and five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock!« Let's get rid of the notion that cuckoo clocks originated from Switzerland. They came from the Black Forest. However, the principle of what he said is sound. If everyone agrees, the atmosphere is not going to be vibrant. For that you need cut and thrust.
Similarly I think Newton's laws of thermo-dynamics have something to say, basically: no work without heat, no heat without friction.
Yes, this POS has changed over the last year. It could be called evolution, but it basically came about because you disapproved of certain lively behaviour. Fine - you're the boss and some of it got out of hand, but as I have said you are asking for two incompatible things.
We miss the plethora of young contributors we had. The board is over-weighted with us oldies at present and we need a balance. We should be asking why the young ones left. That's my two pennyworth.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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I feel like being bad so that being the case, let’s discus “The Anthropic Principle” and Stephen Hawking’s conversion to Christianity or at least to belief in deity.
The Universe in a nutshell
Chapter 8 closing:
"However the laws do not tell us what the universe should have looked like when it started - it would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator."
And the last word in his book is - God. Here's the closing paragraph;
"However if we do discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
The two subjects may or may not be connected.!?
That ought to stir things up a bit… No Offence hehehe
::-) 
I have no idea what I'm talking about....
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Timmy, your post raised several thoughts within my mind.
Firstly, I believe that if someone else had made that post you would be the first to defend APOS. But in this instance it is up to someone else to defend it. Certainly APOS isn't perfect and the people who participate here are not perfect, but no one expects such perfection. We all have bad days, we all react inappropriately on occasion but I have not recently noticed long, drawn-out, contentious arguments like frequently happened a year or so ago.
Secondly, it is not necessary to consistently say “in my opinion” when making statements that one feels are truthful or factual. That is understood, even when expressing things that may be supported by scientific information (sometimes even scientists disagree on the interpretation of information). It is not uncommon for a replier to request background or support for an expressed statement or position; and it sometimes happens that offense is taken until further discussion clarifies the issue. No different than life in general.
Thirdly, your statement, “this place is not as it should be” is very vague and is very much an opinion, not fact. I understand that APOS currently may not be functioning as you envision it should and the “why” for that is what is important. APOS is in a constant state of flux as the world around us constantly changes and the participants change; new people join, some participants leave, those who stay change as they grow older and their life changes. APOS is like a living organism, constantly changing to reflect the world and the forum's participants.
Fourthly, your statement, “at present, it is not happy, not vibrant, deals with no subjects and helps no-one” is one that I can not agree with. “It is not happy”. Compared to what? Certainly not compared to the months preceding Marc's departure. Those were truly unhappy times for this forum and the tone has changed dramatically since then. “It is not vibrant”. I admit that I do not participate in a great many forums but some that I visit are filled with little more than happy birthday wishes, jokes and trivia or have days go by without a single post. APOS is by far the most vibrant forum I am a member of. “It deals with no subjects”. Foreskins, circumcision, smagma, what attracts your attention, age of consent, adults having sexual relations with minors are all subjects that have recently appeared and been discussed here. Whether you are cut or not, how many places are there where one can learn what it is like to be the other? APOS provided such an opportunity recently.
Finally, “it helps no-one”. I think it would be more accurate to say that it is not helping those who you would like it to help. OK. Who is your target for help? Why is the forum not reaching them? Are they not participating? If not, why? Honestly, if your target is young gay teens or pre-teens then a forum populated by older, married and unmarried gay men is not likely to attract them. Certainly, they are mistaken in the help such people can provide but they are not going to be attracted to the forum. Many at APOS expressed incredulity at the idea that a teen could be sexually attracted to an older man; why is a gathering such as this forum any different? APOS may not be helping those you would like it to help but it is helping those who participate here, there have been statements to that fact recently.
In addition, I think it is important to recognize the changing world. Today's gay teen or pre-teen has many more resources to utilize than back when APOS was first started. Both the need for help and the opportunity to help are much less than they once were. Even the forum's name reflects the conditions of the time at which it was created. Instant messaging, cell phones, email, FaceBook, Twitter are all methods that gay kids can now use to communicate with each other to get the help or advice they need. That is the competition that APOS faces in trying to help members of the gay community or any community.
Before they went off to college APOS had some high schoolers as regular participants and I suspect that you are missing them; the energy and vibrancy that they provided. I also suspect that they provided validation the forum was reaching your target audience. I too miss their participation; they provided us older guys who no longer have teens at home with contact with younger minds, opinions and ideals.
Naturally, this is all just my opinion. But I hope that it helps you to see things from a different perspective.
JimB
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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I think arich's post and my reply (and any others to it) should be move to a thread of its own.
I have believed for decades that a soul reincarnates and experiences multiple lifetimes. Also, that God is a concept invented by mankind, basically to answer the unanswerable.
With the recent death of both of my parents (in their 80's) and my own advancing age I've had cause for some serious thinking lately. One thing that occurred to me was that we don't even know if such a thing as our soul exists. Perhaps the physical life is all that there is, as miraculous as it is.
Regarding the creation of the universe, I find it interesting that most of the scientists who believe in the big bang theory also believe that it was a one shot thing, that there isn't enough matter in the universe to cause it to stop expanding and contract. They can't identify the necessary matter for that to happen so they assume that it doesn't exist. I seems to me to be much more logical that the last big bang was not the first, that there is enough matter in the universe for it to contract and the universe oscillates from big bang-to-expansion-to-contraction-to-big bang. And that it always has and always will do so.
I thought I'd help stir things a bit.
JimB
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Dear Timmy,
Without your saying so I suspect that your concern about being correct arises from the offence I have recently given (unintentionally) to a long established and respected member of this group. I wish I hadn't done it.
I find it very difficult to roll over and play dead: I don't think I've ever done that. I have said I didn't intend to hurt. Maybe I'm inured to vitriol from the religious side (members of whom have many times told me that I am going to hell) but I think I don't utter anything that could be called vitriol. I don't use inflammatory language. My use of the word 'evil' was, in my opinion, much less inflammatory than the response it got.
But I don't like being called inconsiderate or bigoted and when that happens I must have done something to spark such a response.
Usually what I have done is to make too cogent a reply. That would not be acknowledged of course.
Love,
Anthony
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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Yep arich,
It's just like Einstein said "God does not play dice." There's no room for probabilities in the grand scheme of things. He had faith in this principle. Thus, Einstein teaches us that faith is a necessary component of science. That, together with the fact that Einstein was Jewish and thus, (well, I never did Einstein)but I would imagine he was circumcised. Well that all tells us that the SMART babies all get circumcised, you see. Damn! I love philosophy.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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The closest you can get to anything about God or the soul is to believe. I say that if belief in God can serve a purpose in your life, then you should try to believe in Him. But in my Christian religion, God is said to accomplish his works through people. So that begs the question, "Why do you need to believe in God?" You can have faith in the goodness of people instead. Still, I am trying with all my might to believe in God. I guess it is just the culture and tradition that has been passed down to me.
Einstein, by the way, believed in God...but a detached vs personal God. He said that Physics was just too orderly and perfect to have emanate out of chaos. Chaos theory is progressing now with the likes of Stephen Wolfram, sooooo, I wonder what Einstein would say today. He was circumcised, you know. So whatever bad things people say about circumcision, well, Einstein is in my group. I have begun to feel a need to stand up for the circumcised, as you may have noticed from my recent posts. Damn....I'm beginning to think that everyone considers me a half-girl, just because some doctor cut about 4 inches of my dick off...oh yes...I'm sure I would have been as big as an Italian Sausage had I not been circumcised.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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I like to stand up for the circumcised, but there again I like to stand up for the uncircumcised.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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JimB
You have obviously done a lot of soul searching to try and figure out what is wrong with this place and have come up with some very good reasons which I totally agree with and impressed by.
The vibrancy has gone because the young ones have flown the coup and we miss their fun, happy go lucky attitudes and profound wisdom. They were like a breath of fresh air around here. I suspect they all got sick of the constant bitching and bickering that was taking place about 12 months ago. Maybe their lives are just too busy now.
There has to be something wrong when we can only muster up a few dozen regulars on a worldwide site. It is quite noticeable when there is conflict there are very few posters.
I came here originally because I thought I could maybe help some of the younger ones turn their lives around. I think I did achieve something both on and off the board. Eventually they just drift away never to be heard of again and I can only hope I did some good and that they are now happy.
For me personally I believe there are two subjects I keep out of and they are politics and religion. I don't see any reason to discuss them here because there is never going to be any concensus of opinion.
Well enough of a rant from me.
Sorry I don't have any ideas on what can be done.
Aussie
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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The young ones have gone because of web 2.0
Using forums today is like using Usenet 5 years ago. It's antiquated and not what young people do anymore. Even instant messaging, in my experience, has declined in popularity. Facebook, Myspace, etc is where the young people are.
Also an increase in tolerance in society broadly means there's less need for places of safety. Because it's safe just to be with your "real life" friends. There will be some who still need places of safety- but for a lot of us, less so.
At the change of the next financial year gay couples living in de facto circumstances will be recognised as de factos by the Australian government for tax and welfare purposes. There's still no gay marriage or even civil unions at the federal level, but our relations will be recognised.
Gay teens no longer need to worry about being gay and can instead worry about being teens. Moreso anyway.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Saben wrote:
> The young ones have gone because of web 2.0
Well, no. They have gone because they found no further use for the place for themselves.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Funny thing about that, once well or ill meet you will carry those persons with you the rest of your cogent existence.
No matter how near or far, though I have forgotten many names, all of those faces still prowl my dreams, day and night, and evoke so much. Luckily for me mostly good memories…
Peace
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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In retrospect I don’t know what that had to do with anything, but then that is usually SOP for me!::-)
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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I realize that I am completely out of sinc with things that have happened on this site over the last long while, but I would like to think that I can infer some concerns timmy has, and in this case I agree with most of what JimB said.
I cannot say who are regular particapants and who are not, but I will say that as a gay I-would-like-to-still-think-of-myself-as-a-teen this place still seems to be a place of safety, and when I wanted to talk to some people who would understand my problems, it was probably in the top three.
True, this site, like all things, probably evolved while I was away, but it's still comforting to see some good things didn't change. When I asked for help I got ten+ replies in one day. One day. Thats amazing, and I'm glad. Even the layout hasn't changed recognizably in five or so years from what I can remember.
I think the posts are widespread, interesting, motivating, and something I would like to continue to come back to from now on. It's far more vibrant than many newer sites will ever hope to become, and I hope I can help it back to something approximating what it could be - as should we all.
This place is so filled with opportunity. I know that perhaps I haven't seen many posts from young people in the recent past, but they will come back, Im sure, even if I have to refer all my younger gay friends to participate.
Its true that young gay teens (like me) have an enourmous amount theoretical sources to find social interaction with other gay people to talk to, but I honestly think this site has something to offer them, despite that.
I also hope that my "younger mind(s), opinions and ideals" will help bring more life to this site
I hope this makes everyone think, even if they disagree - which is just as good, as long as they talk about it and share and help us all grow together.
A truth told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent
-William Blake
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Macky
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: November 2008
Messages: 973
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So glad you made your way back to us. I'm looking forward to your posts.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Ps 133:1 NASB
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Dear arich, you wrote:
I have no idea what I'm talking about....
I don't want to agree with you but do want to disagree with what I think is an assumption in Hawking's thought.
That is the assumption that there is some connexion between mathematical models and the real world. There isn't. All mathematical models are the product of the human mind (I beg the question whether there is any other sort of mind that could invent mathematics.)
A mathematical model is said to explain the real world when in every single instance of its application it matches perfectly. When it doesn't match then a new model is sought and occasionally an Einstein will find a new mathematical model that matches better.
I would like to believe that the universe is capable of being understood and so I am happy to go along with the attempt to find better models.
But the manifest contradictions in the quantum model seem to me to show that it doesn't match the real world.
To ask the question "Why does the universe exist?" is what I would call a LOADED question. To ask it is to ASSUME that there is a coherent answer and that assumes that there IS a reason. That comes close to assuming that there is a god and that is why Hawking has been sidetracked into that belief.
But anyone can see that if there is no reason why the universe exists then the question has no answer and that allows for the possibility that there is no god either.
Actually I think the big problem is that of free will. All the mathematical models work like clockwork and when wound up they run down in a predetermined way like a good clock. (Mathematical models don't have breakable springs and so on to go wrong.)
But none of the mathematical models refuses to work backwards. Time does seem to refuse to work backwards so the models DON'T match the real world.
Also the models follow a predetermined course and if there is such a thing as free will then the universe doesn't follow a predetermined course. So either the models are wrong or the idea of free will is wrong. I am one of those non-Calvinists that believes people can choose and that not all their choices are determined.
Since the universe can't be wrong the models must be.
Now I think that towards the end of his life Popper had found a way of expressing an idea of how free will could be incorporated into a model of the universe - and in a way that didn't just say, as quantum theory does, that chance enters into it. It was not a mathematical model, by the way.
Chance doesn't allow for free will either. If things are random how can you wishing for something have an effect on any outcome?
Now I think I sound as if I DO have an idea of what I'm talking about. Do you think I do?
Love,
Anthony
[Updated on: Sun, 03 May 2009 21:01] |
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