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The gay community here in Israel is embroiled in an ethical question.
Many of the leaders of the community are frustrated that several celebrities who are known (to the gay community) to be gay have not come out of the closet in the aftermath of the tragic slaughter in the Tel-Aviv youth club. Their claim is that any celebrity about whom there are 'rumours' and who does not now come out of the closet is, in fact, strengthening the fear that youngsters have of being 'found out'. They claim that now is the time for celebrities to broadcast loud and clear that being gay is nothing to be ashamed of.
Perhaps I should note here that Israel has quite a few local celebrities who are out of the closet and whose popularity with the general public was not affected by their coming out or was even enhanced.
Against the expectation of the leaders of the gay community is the claim that one's sexual orientation is a private matter and each individual is entitled to have it known or to maintain privacy at his own discretion.
So far, so good.
Now - since no more celebrities have come out - some people in the gay community want to out them anyway. They claim that this will ultimately save lives because the general public will gradually see that being gay is nothing to shout home about, and no one need be reticent about letting the world know that they are gay.
I must admit that I have not the slightest idea who these closeted celebrities are. But I do feel rather strongly that no one should be outed against their will.
As teachers used to say in school assignments in the 'good old days': discuss!
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I'm reminded of the early days of OutRage! in the UK [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OutRage! is a good place to start your research]. OutRage! did spend a while actively outing or threatening to out hypocritical and notable establishment figures. I am not comfortable with outing people, the more so since I was outed myself in other circumstances.
I think that one's orientation is a personal thing, and shoudl be as private or as public as one wishes. If a gay celeb wishes it to be private, then, as long as they don;t out themselves and then whine about it, private is what it should be. Mandatory or threatened outing will drive gay rights back a long way.
Never let the extremists take over.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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As a postscript, how different would outing them be from making them wear a pink triangle?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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I'm with you on this Timmy, It is a personal choice to be out. No one should be 'outted' by other entities; press, ex-lover and such.
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I can't see what there is to discuss. One's life is private. That includes sexual orientation and the person reveals what he wishes to. I can think of reasons for outing someone; I cannot think of any good reasons for doing so.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The activist has reasons founded in the word "hypocrisy" to out people. Peter Tatchell used to like such unpleasant games with people's private feelings, but he seems to have grown through that phase.
The homophobic gay man is homophobic for his own reasons, but that was Tatchell's target. In Tel Aviv the rationale is different, but the menace has arrived there. For me that is wrong on so many levels.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Nigel,
If someone you know to be gay joins in when the media condemns gays and implies that all gays are paedophiles and abusers and ... and ...
Don't you think they ought to be persuaded to stop doing that? I don't know whether I would have the courage stand up and be counted as one of those outing people and I'm far from fully 'out' myself (which in my opinion is further evidence of cowardice) but I do think it right to expose such people for the hypocrites they are.
Hypocrisy will serve as well
To propagate a church as zeal.
So round white stones will serve they say
As well as eggs to make hens lay.
Are we not working to bring on the day when nobody is scared of admitting they are gay or bi because nobody will think worse of them for it?
Love,
Anthony
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I hadn't viewed it from the hypocrisy angle. Having said that we now get into the 'do two wrongs make a right?' argument. I'm going to have to sit on the sidelines for a few posts.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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acam wrote:
> Dear Nigel,
>
> If someone you know to be gay joins in when the media condemns gays and implies that all gays are paedophiles and abusers and ... and ...
>
> Don't you think they ought to be persuaded to stop doing that? I don't know whether I would have the courage stand up and be counted as one of those outing people and I'm far from fully 'out' myself (which in my opinion is further evidence of cowardice) but I do think it right to expose such people for the hypocrites they are.
Persuaded, yes. Blackmailed, no. And that is the difference.
When I was a teenager, for my own self preservation I espoused being unkind to queers. It was either that or be institutionalised. Oddly one friend worked it out. Lady MacBeth did that for me.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I believe that we are each responsible for our actions. I do not like blackmail in any form. Two wrongs do not make a right in this or indeed ever.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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It's a complex issue, but I'm largely with Anthony on this one.
I would be prepared to "out" someone against their will if they were clearly being both hypocritical and doing considerable long-term damage to LGBTQQ people. Assuming, of course, that I had a very high degree of certainty that they were gay/bisexual ... and in practice that degree of certainty may be difficult to have.
So, I would "out" a legislator who voted for repressive legislation, or who blocked legislation for equal rights, but who was at the same time paying a string of rent-boys (or girls for Lesbian legislators) for sex.
I would not "out" a cleric who preached against homosexuality as a sin, if their gay experience was for example only a couple of adolescent encounters, and they were clearly fighting what they saw as "temptation to sin" within themselves. I would think them wrong-headed, screwed-up, all kinds of other things ... but I wouldn't out them.
In short, I think there are circumstances in which "outing" can be morally justified ... as a pacifist, I find it interesting that there are plenty of people who think that outing people is always wrong, but killing them (in a war) can sometimes be justified, which is pretty much the opposite of my own views.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Thank you, NW, for your support (I shall always wear it!). As I have remarked before I have yet to read a view of yours without agreeing with it.
Love,
Anthony
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Anthony, as much as I love you, you are a complete and utter crawler. (lol)
Hugs
Nigel
[Updated on: Thu, 13 August 2009 20:35]
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Why not, Nigel? I like him: I like his opinions: I say so.
What's the favour you think I'm courting?
Love,
Anthony
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Anthony, I'll pretend that's a rhetorical question.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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