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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Brody drew my attention to this article: http://brodylevesque.blogspot.com/2009/08/brodys-notes-small-poll-or-reflection.html
It interested me, so I have reproduced the poll here on the site, and am doing so in this post.
I'm interested in reaching as wide an audience as possible to see what differences and similarities our catchment area has to the larger sites.
I realise completely that this will differ nation by nation, but it is not my intent to conduct an exhaustive scientific survey. This is "wet finger in the air" stuff. My polling tool does not have the luxury of fine granularity, so we're just aiming at those who speak English well enough to understand the questions!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well, Timmy, I've voted that I think not enough is done. But the truth is that I'm too ignorant about what is done to vote. When I worked for the local AIDS charity they had a youth group which was run by a guy who picked the members he liked to take to bed (I think) and in my opinion that was a terrible thing to allow.
But who can be trusted to look after the interests of such children and not to prey on them?
But the reason I voted that way was because I think the subject is almost taboo in local schools and 'gay' is still a popular choice of denigration in the playground, used about almost anything or anybody that you wish to disapprove of.
But I wonder what would I do if I were faced with the need to advise and help young people in this need and I really don't know what, except to point them at iomfats and the mailcrew and maybe codeys world.
Am I silly to think that the problem is to organise such support in a way that ensures it is not only non-judgmental but also safe for the children to use in the sense that the people won't try to engage them emotionally or in experimental sex.
And what would I do if that forbidden territory was exactly what I thought they needed?
I'm sure more is needed but far from sure that anyone knows how to do it right. How would one vet the staff?
Love,
Anthony
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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You pose some challenging questions, and I don't think folk know the definitive answers. One might start with making this support one created initially by the kids for the kids with the relevant adults seconded to it by a committee of kids.
But it isn't just school based. in the USA there is PFLAG. In the UK there is the almost complete absence of the organisation. I know because I wanted it to be a beneficiary of my will.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I had to say there where already enough organizations out there to help gay youth. I mean there is the LTGB out there and others like gay straight alliances in schools around the US, not sure about other countries.
Maybe it is more a case of exposure to the plight of gay youth to be recognized and excepted within society in various cultures around the world.?
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Actually, arich, I think there isn't any of that (afaik) in the UK. No PFLAG, at any rate and nothing in any of the schools I know about (I was a school governor for some years and one of my daughters still is).
So it may be needed here even if it isn't in the USA or Oz. I'd be surprised if there were not many other places where is is needed even more than here. I wonder how things are in Russia or South Africa.
Love,
Anthony
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rkcl
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Getting started |
Registered: August 2009
Messages: 2
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This may be of interest to some of your readers.
info@lgbtqyouthcornwall.co.uk
This was set up a short while ago and have had 3-4 meetings, set up with the aid of Intercom Trust, LGBT-PACT and others.
This is run for and by young people 25 years old and under, and you must email, for safety reasons for directions to the monthly meetings which are held in Truro.
One of the Trustees is a school visitor travelling Cornwall schools to highlight LGBT youth issues of homophobia etc
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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In answer to Anthony's query and although I have also found a lack of youth oriented organizations represented in Britain or the UK in general while researching on-line, on my blog I have placed logos to links that greatly help LGBT youth in the United States. Of course foremost is Matthew's Place, followed by GLSEN, and then Trevor's Space/Place. These are geared at 14 to 20 year olds, while Campus Pride and theNEWgaynet are geared towards the college age to early 30's set. PFLAG is also listed. The trouble is that there really is a dearth of viable options out there to address the needs of youth and to assist them BEFORE a crisis whereby trauma care becomes a necessity whether mental health wise or physically. I hope that this answers Anthony's and other readers questions as to some of those resources. ~ Brody Levesque
(I have posted this on Brody's behalf. He tends not to post in forums. I tend not to post on other people's behalf, either!)
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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The correct answer is both yes and no. No, because there are great organizations that help gay youth and they are fairly widespread and they do wonderful work. Yes, because more is needed since there are still bullies in schools and there are still authorities who turn a blind eye to the activities of the bullies and there are still those who hate gays simply because they are gay. On any Sunday you will find preachers damning and degrading gays from the pulpit.
Not until all school officials and all police work to stop the bullying will a yes answer not be valid.
JimB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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Also, there is no mention of boys or girls who are handicapped: developmental, physical, emotional, learning disabled, etc., and are gay. Handicapped students get help but only to accomodate their problem. There is little mention of helping out with sexuality. It is rarely in the paridigm.
Raymundo
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Raymundo wrote:
> Also, there is no mention of boys or girls who are handicapped: developmental, physical, emotional, learning disabled, etc., and are gay. Handicapped students get help but only to accomodate their problem. There is little mention of helping out with sexuality. It is rarely in the paridigm.
But society does not expect any of these people to have sex. Gay or straight, this is a class of humanity that is seen as not having sex at all.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Raymundo, I don't think society realizes or recognizes that the help a gay person needs is different if that person is also handicapped. Considering that about 10% of the population is gay and maybe 10% is handicapped the combination of the two would be a very small group and qualified professionals for both would be equally rare. But I understand your point and am not disagreeing with you.
Timmy wrote:
>But society does not expect any of these people to have sex. Gay or straight, this is a class of humanity that is seen as not having sex at all.
I do not agree with you at all. At least this is not true for the society that I live in. It is not at all uncommon for handicapped people to have children. The parents may be blind, deaf, confined to a wheel chair, or have emotional or learning disabilities. I grew up with friends who's parents were both deaf and had a schoolmate who's mother was blind since birth.
JimB
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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But the disabled population, in the USA, is thought of as not able to have sex or to be sexual. And the power of the label itself - handicap - is dangerous. A student could have a slight problem, not in any way interfering with a normal development, yet when in school, the student is removed for remediation, the handicapped label is almost automatically applied by peers and teachers, maybe subconsciously, but nonetheless applied. I have taught basic life skills for people with developmental disabilities and literally fought to include human development and sexuality in the school curriculum. I have discussed the lack of a sexual pardigm in graduate seminars for learning disabled teenagers and adults (who cannot read basic information about STDS or AIDS). I definitely agree with Timmy that society doesn't expect handicapped people to have sex or to be sexual, or to be gay or lesbian or transgendered.
Raymundo
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Ok, I will accept that you have more experience and knowledge in this area than I. I was raised around both minorities and handicapped people and learned from a very early age not to discriminate or judge because of a person's race or disability. As a result I find it hard to believe that someone would be so ignorant as to think that a handicapped person, whether it be physical or mental, is not a sexual being. But society frequently amazes me with it's ignorance.
JimB
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I think you've had the fortune to grow up in an enlightened area, Jim. May there be many more such areas.
Mostly we can't even cope with thinking about old folk having sex, let alone those whose bodies and brains have malfunctions.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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johnleeb
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Toe is in the water |
Location: USA
Registered: January 2009
Messages: 44
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One of the major problems in the US is the the religious right has managed to eliminate all public funding for all varieties of sex education except for abstinence. Don't teach them anything about it and then wonder why there are so many teenaged pregnancies and there is no control over STDs. Idiots on the loose in many major religions!
So, given there is nothing there for regular children, there is also nothing for those with physical or mental difficulties.
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In the UK a lot of money is spent on sex education and yet we still have an explosion of teenage pregnancies and STDs. This is because there is no moral backing given to the instruction, helped by numerous other reasons.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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How, exactly, do you add 'moral backing' to sex education, Nigel? I'm not disagreeing with you, you understand, but it's very easy to say that you want to back up sex education with morality but not in practice easy to do.
In fact, given a fifteen year old tabula rasa I rather think it would all be too late - not quite impossible, you understand, but there would be many who you would not succeed with.
And it's amazing how much is left out of sex education (just think of all the things on iomfats that no child should need to find out from the web). Maybe emotional education is wanted too. Isn't the problem of bullying closely tied up with it too? Surely the basic problem is how to bring up children so that they don't get enjoyment or relief from being nasty to other people. What I think is shown by the attitude which says 'young people must have it brought home to them that they must be responsible and caring in their relationships' is that the world still thinks of the children as jugs which have to be filled by educators with the right mixture and all will be well.
And I agree with JimB that what the religions do is worse than useless. They link faith with abstinence and when one goes the other may because the good reasons for behaving well haven't been touched on. And, seriously, do we want our children to be abstinent? I didn't try to impose that on my children and I look back on the sexual desert that was my life (mostly) from puberty till marriage with considerable regret. It could have been a joyous time and it wasn't.
So perhaps it's not just sex education that needs to be changed but society's whole attitude? And how long have we got?
Love,
Anthony
PS I still think it is worth teaching sex education and doing our best to help children find their way through the sexual minefield.
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What I am thinking of as morality in sex education are our resposibilities to others. The following instances can be added to.
Sexual intercourse is not an advanced form of masturbation.
Sex should be the fruit of a relationship.
Sexual intercourse is designed to produce babies. Any resulting baby is the responsibilty of both parents.
You do not produce a baby in order to move up the council house waiting list or in order to draw social benefits.
The resulting baby is a human being and deserves the best it can be given. If it can't be provided for properly there are plenty of methods to prevent its development, before and after sex.
You do not go around spreading STDs.
I am sure that many more moral instructions can be given.
One 'joke' I read and admittedly laughed at, but on reconsideration thought it was an awful and unfunny reflection on our society: A son asked his white unpartnered mother why he had dark brown skin. She replied "Don't even go there, son. The mood I was in at that party that night, you're lucky you don't bark."
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Yes, Nigel, but.
(I'd like to cavil a bit.)
What I am thinking of as morality in sex education are our resposibilities to others. The following instances can be added to.
Sexual intercourse is not an advanced form of masturbation. [It can be but you mustn't let that happen.]
Sex should be the fruit of a relationship. [Yes but why?]
Sexual intercourse is designed to produce babies. Any resulting baby is the responsibilty of both parents. [No it isn't; sexual intercourse isn't designed. However it usually does produce babies which is all that is needed for the morality tale.]
You do not produce a baby in order to move up the council house waiting list or in order to draw social benefits. [Yes. You do not bring another human being into the world for ANY ulterior reason. Furthermore since you can choose to bring one into the world or not, you should ensure that you will be able to look after it properly before you do.]
The resulting baby is a human being and deserves the best it can be given. If it can't be provided for properly there are plenty of methods to prevent its development, before and after sex. [As before but a bit arse about face.]
You do not go around spreading STDs. [Yes, but even more important - you don't go about catching them: then you can't spread them.]
I am sure that many more moral instructions can be given. [Yes, of course. The problem isn't writing down the code that I think we agree about - anyway largely. The problem is how to teach it so that the pupils actually want to keep to it. So that they understand why it is best for them and their friends and their parents and their (eventual) children.]
As for your joke:
One 'joke' I read and admittedly laughed at, but on reconsideration thought it was an awful and unfunny reflection on our society: A son asked his white unpartnered mother why he had dark brown skin. She replied "Don't even go there, son. The mood I was in at that party that night, you're lucky you don't bark."
I thought it was funny too. But my tenant, who looks like a blonde angel has two very dark-skinned little boys and I worry that she isn't able to bring them up on her own the way they should be brought up. And it isn't that she doesn't try. The problem is that she doesn't know how and if you told her - for example the pearls of wisdom above - I bet she'd doubt them.
Love,
Anthony
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ray2x
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Really getting into it |
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 429
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Jim, you deserve a big hug.
Raymundo
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JimB
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Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
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Thank you, but I don't think I'm anything special, it is just the environment I was raised in and values I was taught. For example, close family friends had daughters the same age as my sisters and a son, also named James, a few months younger than I. The mother was disabled from polio as a youth and Jimmy had his umbilical cord wrapped around his neck at birth and was developmentally disabled as a result. Though we weren't best friends we played together until school age at which time he went to a special school while I went to regular school.
In addition, the people who's property bordered the back of ours were from Mexico and both parents were deaf. This was a very mixed neighborhood in Southern California and I went to school with kids of many races.
The example that first came to mind when I read the posts of this thread was of a family friend who broke her back in a toboggan accident when she was a teen (we were there and my sisters were riding it with her) and was confined to a wheelchair for the rest of her life. She married and had two daughters.
I can not understand how someone would think that disabled people are not sexual beings. My friend Jimmy, though he never married, was certainly capable of fathering children and had the same urges that I did.
JimB
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Hi Anthony!
I think we are broadly in agreement.
>Sex should be the fruit of a relationship. [Yes but why?]< Because it is an expression of intimacy and emotion; otherwise it is on the level of 'rape & pillage'. Also see previous point.
The problem is how to teach these points. That's how our society has developed over the last forty years. Authority and respect have been systematically destroyed and we are now fighting a rearguard action, often in a heavy handed way - eg asbos. Ideally things shouldn't have got that far.
Time to put the soapbox away.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Re: LGBT Youth 