|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
So carefully that I am gong to put the question in the reply. You see i dont want a knee jerk reaction.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
I have thought about this "just enough" to know the subject is controversial. And i hope oy know me well enough to realise that I am not posting this frivolously, nor to stir a religious debate, nor to exchange definitions of the sbject matter.
The question is simple:
"Under what cirucnstances is incest right and acceptable?"
WAIT! No knee jerk reactions. No hell and damnation. No Preaching. Calm thought.
I have not talked about adult/child here. I have asked simply about incest, however it is defined in your world. And I hope for simple and quiet thoughts on the subject
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
There are two very famous and approved of examples of incest that we do not turn a hair at. It must, therefore, sometimes be right. So think outside the box.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
 |
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
I'm not suprised.
All right here goes....
Incest within the culture I live is thought of as being morally and legally wrong, just as it is in your culture as well. As far as whether or not incest is right I have to say no it isn't (at least in my culture).
If it is acceptable, well that is another question alltogether. That is dependent upon the attitudes and mores of any other persons made privy to the event.
Of course, there are many many cultures through out the world in which incestual encounters are considered as an educational experience. But I have to emphasize the word "encounter" used here, as these experiences are not intended to be considered "relationships"
Just my opinion,
Marc.......
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Darren
|
 |
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
|
|
|
I only see insest as a problem between couples that can bear children (as to me this is why it is taboo). Of course, situations where a child is being taken advantage of by an adult are totally wrong too. Otherwise, why not?
Darren
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
This is something to give some thought. Not that i approve of it, but I feel as long as no one is being forced against their will, and their being safe about it, then it should be up to the persons involved.
Brian
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
trevor
|
 |
Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
|
|
|
No Message Body
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry Darren, your conservative compaired to me .... hehe
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
Firstly I would like to say incest, in my opinion can be defined as a sexual experience of some description involving two people that share at least 1/8 of the same blood (ie siblings, parents, cousins, aunts, uncles and grandparents). The question being as it is, I would have to say that incest is always "right" provided both parties agree to it, but seldom "acceptable".
"Right" and "wrong" are two things that are never absolute (except in the eyes of a supreme being if you believe in one), so therefore to ask when incest is right is really a ridiculous question. Incest is never going to be "right" for everyone, so it is never right (since God doesn't want to tell us whether each individual case is right or wrong), but by the same token, it is never "wrong". Thus we have to ignore everyone's opinions, except those that are actually involved, if those two consider it right, then it is right, for them.
As for acceptable, well, that is more defined by culture and society, so in the words of a friend of mine, it is acceptable "when you're a hick"... Basically, most societies incest is illegal and even a relationship with a 2nd or 3rd cousin is considered somewhat "uncouth", so really any form of relationship with a person you can find on your family tree (in a Western society) is unacceptable.
In my eyes, I believe incest is something best avoided, but if you really do love a person, and they love you in return then it shouldn't matter what their race, age, gender or religion are, nor should it matter if you are related to them. This goes for all people however, straight couples just need to be careful if practicing incest while it is "that time of the month" 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In the society we have today, I'm fairly sure it can't be right and acceptable. The reason for that being that it's socially unacceptable and punishable by law, which makes the act a burden to carry for the ones involved, usually more on one than the other.
In a society where this act was not illegal and unaccepted (such as ancient Greece for example), things would be different.
I don't believe it is inherently wrong with adult/minor relations, what damages children is the burden of guilt, not the sexual act itself.
Of course children must not be put under such a burden in a society where incest is not accepted, so I fully support the laws being used against those who break them. In THIS society it is wrong, but I still believe it is not inherently wrong.
Ok, I'll get off the soapbox now... 
-L
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim...of usa
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
|
|
|
ok i have a gay cousin and growing up he and i had some very special times together. this could be placed in the neat little box called "kids exploring" but at 15 and 16 years of age we both had a pretty good clue as to what we were doing.
were we in love? i know for me i was totally in love with him and when he left to go to college i cried my self to sleep for a few weeks.
would i gte together with him now? most likly yes i dont care that much about the "relations" issue as i do care for the person he is and has always been, the problem is he has been with the same man since his college days and i may be an insestious little freak but i am not a home wreacker....hehehe
so personally i have no issue with 2 CONSENTING people who happen to be related loving each other or just sleeping togethter. who am i to judge?
just my little spin on things
peace
tim...of USA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
Now, those two well known, famous, and wholly acceptable instances of incest:
Assuming that the Bible is verbatim true, as so many religious sects do, if we are of certain faiths we are descended from Adam and from Eve. Mihangel's story raised this thought with me, really, by mentioning the two incompatible stories of the creation of Eve.
Adam and Eve bred. Since there was no-one else, and they begat (what a word!) Cain and Abel, we can assume the Cain and Eve and Abel and Eve produced more little people. Quite a restricted gene pool! Lucky there must have been a few girls, or it would all have stopped at Eve.
Years passed.
It rained.
An old bloke named Noah got a boat building task, and was allowed to take Mrs Noah, and his family as well as a pair of each beast. Pity the unicorns were sterile, or practised safe sex, but there it is! Also no-one has ever mentioned the dolphins.
Now, ignoring the restricted gene pool of the beasts, the Noah family were pretty close! No other humans on board, so one has to assume that the Noahs bred a pretty inbred bunch of new humans. And, of course, they were the sole source of humans, since all other perished in the flood.
The prupose of this mini treatise, which some woudl say was blaspheny (a concept I do not recognise) is to show that incest has a true historic place within a hughly moral framework.
I have not said "it is desirable", you notice. Nor "it is undesirable", nor have i entered the debate about what it IS, in any precise manner, since I am leaving the definition entirely to you as we discuss it. Oh yes. Thi sis not a gay topic. This is a human topic.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
incest is a sexual experience between two people with close familial relation. As for its acceptability...
Looking at it from a biological or more specifically genetical point of view (can't help that, I'm a biologist ) incest is undesirable as it increases the chance of genetical disorders and appearance of the, usually, undesirable recessive traits.
Personaly this is the only problem I have with incest, and so if the couple is same sex or just plain careful there isn't much of a problem. The importent part is the love! if it exists the rest is of minor importance at best.
Love,
Gil
Searching for the light at the end of the bed...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
According to Websters Dictionary:
Incest \'in-,sest\ noun: Sexual intercourse between persons so closely related that they are forbidden by law to marry.
In as much as male-male marrige is not legalized anywhere in but a very few countries it is axiomatic that we are discoursing on heterosexual encounters.
When we speak of encounters between two closely related males, it is just shagging. If there are true romantic feelings between two closely related males, then that is just what it is, two more gay guys getting together. Nothing more.
But is it incest? No.
The opinions expressed are my own.
The definations are published.
Marc.......
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
Many of us have had, or have attempted, to enjoy our bodies with those of close male relatives. It wasn't the point I expected to "come up", but it is certainly valid.
I was driving towards something very different, whcih has already come up. Love.
Not, you will notice, the theme of "incest shag fests", but love.
I think among the reason I raised the topic, was thye feeling of the need to reassure those of us who have experimented with, or even loved, close relatives that we are normal.
I also wanted to shake a stick at religious prohibitions. No-one seems to have picked that one up yet
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim...of usa
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
|
|
|
what the hell does religion have to do with love?
want to find hate and exclusion go got many of the major religious groups and have a listen.
just my opinion.
peace
tim...of USA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
Well, your two examples of the fables of Adam and Eve and Noah and the Ark, they are wonderful bedtime stories for children and expansive fodder for Hollywood, but they are, in reality, interpretations incorporated into the bible for the purpose of lending credence to the myth of "creation". Your second example served to instill the "fear of God" into otherwise sinful and excessive worshippers.
In a more real sense, Lot had incestual relationships with his daughters. In effect, Lot as you remember was allowed by God to leave Sodom (HEH...) and Gomorrah for being righteous in his devotion to God. However, when the people moved to "rob" the messengers sent to Lot, Lot replies, "I have two daughters who have not yet had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof." Reference Genesis 19:5 thru 8, New American Standard Bible.
1. This in effect offers to us an example of Lot's sense of morality towards the issue of his daughters virginity.
2. After Lot and his daughters fled Zoar, they took refuge in a cave away in the mountains.
3. Lot's first duaghter said to the younger, "our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father".
4. Interestingly enough, it was the idea of the older daughter to lie with the father and the following night it was the eldest's idea again to have the younger sister do the same.
Reference, Genesis 19:30 to 36 New American Standard Bible
In this example, it is interesting to witness that not only did Lot feel free to offer his daughters to the unwashed masses, the daughters conspire to have children by him.
Another example of incest is of the children of King David, Amnon and Tamar, in which Amnon feigned illness in order to entice his sister, Tamar, to nurse him. Once she made to attend him, Amnon raped his sister. Reference, 2nd Samuel 13:1 to 14 New American Standard Bible
Clearly these two examples vary greatly in their intent and the actual execution of the incestual deed. The text continues in both examples and thusly outlines the retribution of an angry God.
The question is: Were these people within the framework of the committance of the incestual act correct in their choices?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
True there are factions that promote more rigid agenda in all major religions, but the basic premise that the love of ones fellow man is the cornerstone of all religions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim...of usa
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
|
|
|
thats right as long as your playing on there team and "down with the program"
and your next post marc proves my point...god loves you if you do EXACTLY what "he" says is "right" but if not your going to life fearing the wrath of god....nice just what i'd like in my daily life.
so according to the bible i am going to hell along with a lot of others......any one want me to save you a seat right next to the etrunial fire?
peace
tim...of USA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
Nothing like a good old religious debate. Basically God loves everyone regardless of what they do, but there are still consequences. Imagine a "good" parent, that loves their child unconditionally and come the child's 16th birthday, the parent buys their child a car. The child drives it recklessly and nearly ends up in hospital, would the parent still then let the child have the car. As much as they still love their child, I think they would have to take away that car. That it what it is like with God. He loves everyone of us, always, but if we do not abide by His laws, which are also the laws of the Universe that He himself must follow, then we will not have the priveledge of returning to live with him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
I was raised as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints (aka Mormon) so am fairly fundamentalist about the majority of things found in the Bible. The church also has additional revelation, however, that clears some things up. Firstly, Cain and Able were not Adam and Eve's only children, Cain was not the eldest son, and even the Bible mentions Seth, who was born after Able's death. So while there was some incest practiced, it wasn't quite so bad as mother/ son relationships and as each new generation proceeded, the level of incest decrease more and more. Plus, given Marc's definition of incest as presented earlier- it was not incest because at the time, it was not illegal. I believe those laws weren't introduced until after the time of Noah.
Which brings me to my next point, in the Mormon church it is believe that up until the time of Noah, the blood of the people was a lot more "pure" than it has become in latter years, don't ask me how or why, I'm not a religious scholar so I cannot answer that, but it is the Church's belief. Anyway, this is the reason that people in the early days of the world lived for so long, and the reason that incest was acceptable in those early times. Mmm.. just thought I'd through that in...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim...of usa
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
|
|
|
i'll respect your point if you in the furture change WE to I. as for myself i dont not buy into the whole "god" concept, yes there does seem to be a power or two greater than man...is that a god? i dont know and i guess i'll find out for myself at some point.
thanks
peace
tim...of USA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
Well, I never once said that you belief certain things, nor that you have to believe them. I simply said that God has expectations of us and those expectations apply regardless of belief. Whether or not you live up to those expectations or not is your choice. Whether you live up to those expectations because you believe in God, or because you believe in something else, it does not matter. I know that God is everyone's father, regardless of whether they acknowledge him as being so, or not. I'm not trying to force you to believe anything, I'm merely saying what is truth to me. What I know for myself to be true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
In addition it sets itself up as custodian, often creator, of morality.
Now religious groups also seem to enjoy hate, which makes me uneasy about those that espouse hatred of others in the name of the same God in hwom I happen to have faith.
This hatred spills over into the attemtp to control the lives not only of the followers fo that religion, but of others who do not follow the same path.
Part of this control is the enforcement of morality.
I do not want to extend this from incest into discussion of orientation, butit woudl eb easy to do so
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
Change the following sentences in your paragraph and everyone will be happy:
"... I believe that god has expectations of us and I believe that those expectations apply regardless of the belief of others. Whether you live up to the expectations, that I believe god has in us, regardless of your beliefs, does not matter to me. I believe in a god. I'm not trying to force your to believe in anything, i'm merely stating what I think is true to me, even though my post does seem to imply that everyone else is wrong in a slightly condescending manner."
... or maybe it won't. But maybe i'm just trying to prove a point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Much of what I would have said has already been said, and better, by Quondam Manitou and Gil. However in the table of Kindred and Affinity of the C of E it is said that you may not marry your Brother’s Son’s wife which strikes me as nonsense as the distant relationship does not have any biological significance (cf. Gil’s comments). Presuming that these rules were made for the purpose of reducing the genetic disorders (sorry another biologist speaking) then they have their place and as rules have helped to keep society healthy. Nevertheless rules are made to be broken (?)and in the circumstances where a genuine loving relationship exists on BOTH sides then I have no qualms about such a relationship. I could not condone any form of coercion. To widen the subject a little. I have no time for religious bigotry and have not found any ’church’ that suits me since they all seem to end up at each others throats despite having very similar philosophies ie." to love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself". What more do you want?
Friendship is the inexpressible comfort of feeling safe with a person, having neither to weigh thoughts or measure words
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim...of usa
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
|
|
|
i dont try to put anyone under my umbrella of belifes but it seems that others want to do just that to me?
you believe in what ever you wish to but please dont not attempt to drag me into your beliefs.
thanks you very very much
peace
tim...of USA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
|
|
|
I didn't spot it if so.
A belief is a perosnal thing. So is a lack of belief.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
What exactly is "their team"? Do you think you can be a bit more informative here?
And I for one view the bible as a book, written by men in order to control other men.
Just as I view all the other religous texts.
And as for "hell", well that is also another myth, just like Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
I'll worry about Hell the same day I see Santa under my tree or see a bunny hiding eggs in my garden.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
before you can believe in anything else.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
How many Gods are there?
Do the Christians and Muslems and Taoists and Hindus all share the same God?
If so, then why do they all believe their crede is best over the others?
If not, then why can't we all get along?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
Why should I compromise what I know to be true, simply to appease people? The fact is, that I have enough faith to say I do know of God's existence, I have felt of His power and of His love, why then should I say that it is only a "belief"? Do scientists say that they THINK certain theories are true when they believe they have sufficient evidence? No, they state it as fact. I have had sufficient proof to be able to state my belief as fact, otherwise I wouldn't do it. I'm not saying other religions are wrong, but I just know what I believe is right for me. Personally I feel it doesn't matter what religion you belong to, as long as you are trying to do what you understand as "good", but I do feel some religions have a better grasp of that than others.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
"Hell" in the conventional sense of fire and brimstone and what not, is a metaphorical of the inner turmoil that is experienced, while in Hell. Hell as I would define it, is not to live in the presence of God, and to have your progression stopped forever. Heaven, on the other hand, is the ability to grow and learn infinitely, to forever become more than what you are at a given moment, and to do so in the presence of God, one who has done it before.
The Bible was a book, written by God, through men, though changed by men to suit there needs at a later date. It was not meant as means for God to control men, as he does not need a book to do that, it merely a guideline. In the end, we all have agency and the ability to choose what we do, the Bible merely points out that there are sometimes eternal consequences for our actions and points them out so we can be fully informed before making a decision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
> Why should I compromise what I know to be true, simply to
> appease people?
You shouldn't, i'm not asking you to compromise your beliefs.
> The fact is, that I have enough faith to say I do know of
> God's existence, I have felt of His power and of His love,
> why then should I say that it is only a "belief"?
You believe you've felt "his power" and "his love". Others would believe it's all a figment of your imagination.
Your beliefs are your own. Take care not to offend other people while expressing them OR include us all under your umbrella(, to play on a post made by another user in this thread). Just some friendly words of advice.
Anyway, lets see... O right, the original topic was incest. Argh, whatever makes you happy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
It realy doesnt matter if you believe in God or not. If there is a God then he is all-forgiving and ever-understanding, therefore he will accept each and every one of us for whatever transgressions we manage to perpetrate.
If there is not a God, well then there is nothing to worry about as well.
The main thing is that you ans I choose to live our lives well.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim...of usa
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
|
|
|
there team is what i fell is the mob mentality of a lot of religions.....believe as we do or get out type thinking.....but this is just how i see things.
as for santa and the easter bunny....THEY ARE REAL.
peace
tim...of USA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim...of usa
|
|
Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
|
|
|
in your opinion
peace
tim...of USA
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
Re: Call me liberal, but.... 
guilty as charged.....i guess 
Interesting. Specially grateful for the decorum 
did we? 