I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
I realised a couple of days ago that some folk are isolated, perhaps by choice, and are made unduly fearful by the hysteria and media feeding frenzy sweeping the world right now, and the look of stern bewilderment on the faces of those who are meant to be our leaders in times of trouble.
Add to that quack remedies that can not work but which will make a profit for the snake oil salesman peddling them and we get a toxic emotional mess.
I've been looking at the UK figures. We only test those in the 'vulnerable' demographic who present with symptoms. So far that is some 55,000. Of those tested we have identified 1,950 cases. Of those 1950 cases 60 folk have died. Alarmists will see ~3% and worry. Realists will know that we have far more cases than that, some of who are asymptomatic. At the end of all this brouhaha I suspect we will see a death rate sub 1%, or one equivalent to a virulent influenza strain.
I suspect the world has reacted hysterically in the same way that populist leaders have been elected recently, driven by social media alleged experts, not by calm heads of reason. It's not a particularly serious ailment, though it is contagious. Most folk will catch it very mildly. Some folk will have a rotten time. Some folk will not survive. I've no idea which of those I'll be, and I'm unperturbed about any of the outcomes.
Like influenza, it will be around for all time, and be a seasonal illness. In due course a vaccine will be developed for at least this strain of it.
In our latest story announcement email I've invited all folk feeling worried or disconnected to come here and express hopes, fears, lonelinesses. I ask that people do not fearmonger, nor be unnecessarily cheerful. We help worried and lonely people by being realistic
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1560
Timmy said "I've invited all folk feeling worried or disconnected to come here and express hopes, fears, lonelinesses."
Well, I've been on self-isolation since Saturday, as I developed a repetitive dry cough rather distinct from the tail-end-of-having-a-cold cough that's plagued me since New Year. Fortunately, it seems to gradually diminishing, and I'll be moving to "social distancing" on Sunday. I desperately need to be able to get out for walks: it's about the only exercise I can do (due to a dodgy back). I was recently diagnosed "pre-diabetic" and exercise is a vital component of my programme to avoid transitioning to actual diabetes!
It's funny - although I don't get out much, and often spend four or five days without talking to anyone in the flesh, I do definitely feel more isolated. Some of it is the number of e-mails cancelling meetings programmed over the next three or four months - everything from Green Party meetings to meet-ups of my old schoolmates (we left in 1972/3). A fair bit of it is that my Mum (who lives an hour away by train - I don't drive) is elderly, housebound, dependant on two carers a day. As well as visiting for a couple of nights a couple of times a month, I'm much the nearest family member, so have been the one to sort things out when she's rushed to hospital, which happens every couple of months. I worry that may no longer be possible: train frequency is likely to be reduced as passenger numbers drop, and they're pretty much disease incubators anyway (I suspect my current cough was caught on an overcrowded train on my way from my last visit to my Mum).
Boredom is a risk, partly because the weather is keeping me out of the garden. Even the complete set of "Man form UNCLE" and "Star Trek TNG" pall after a while! But I'm well-stocked for food etc, and I have been touched by the number of neighbours, friends and acquaintances on Facebook who have offered to do shopping / anything else if needed.
So, yup, feeling frustrated at being cooped up, but also impressed by the way the community has rallied round to help those (like myself) less able to look out for themselves. And a bit worried, both for family members and also for myself - we all have "underlying health conditions".
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484
Currently living temporarily in Central Oregon. We have several cases in our local hospitals and care centers in town. People here in this city of 100,000 are panicked and buying up all the staples off the grocer's shelves. Many empty shelves where the beans and rice and canned fruit and toilet tissue and many other items are supposed to be. Saw a family yesterday with a cart filled with tomatoes from the produce department. A few minutes later in the produce department I noticed the island where the tomatoes were supposed to be there was nothing but green astroturf. On to the checkout lines which were very long, I saw the same family attempting to check out with their tomatoes only to have the store personnel refuse to sell them that amount but limiting their purchase to 1 lb. Bravo to the managers of the store for stepping in!
People can rude, thoughtless, selfish idiots at times and hard times often brings these characteristics to the forefront.
As a couter to all that I've mentioned above, I was at another large store on Monday purchasing a few food and other hardware items and upon leaving the store there was a lady therer with a pallet full of boxes of 250 count latex medical gloves giving one box per person away to any senior citizen who wanted one. What a lovely gesture on her part. Caring, considerate, and thoughful of the most vulnerable among us.
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
Where I live, the scools have been closed through April, all restaurants and bars, theaters, etc. are closed, and the state government has required all non-essential employers to reduce staff in-house by 50% or more. Because of reduced staff coming in to actually produce anything at work combined with a downturn in orders already happening, we had 40% of employees furloghed on Tuesday, myself included. So, it looks like I'll be looking forward to at least a month of sitting around the house most of the time. I have a couple small projects that need to be done, as well as prepping my bikes for the upcoming season. But, yeah things are looking kinda dull for the next month or 2. At least the snow has finally melted. If they don't ban being outside (like they are doing in France...), I'll be able to get some serious mileage on my bikes, more than I could while working.
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484
In addition to Alex's list above, our churches here in Oregon have also been closed down, thought I think it's a strong suggestion rather than an order at this point, but not sure of that. At any rate I just had a guy tell me that our governor, Kate Brown, is the Beast, 666, spoken of in the Bible, and that if I follow orders and refuse to go to church then I will receive the "Mark of the Beast" in my forehead and will burn in hell with the Devil and his angels.Sigh...There's no accounting for the level of ignorance displayed in the throes of a crisis....or even when life is going along as normal.
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
One area that I find aggravating, especially since I have 'underlying health conditions' is the dehumanisation of those of us who have them. Asthma is assuredly not my fault. One might argue that T2 Diabetes is, but I am not obese. I have cases of Diabetes on both sides of my family and may be genetically predisposed to it.
Our announcements of deaths are quite appalling. "A male patient of 59 died. He had underlying health conditions [which means that was fine because the fucker deserved to die. He was less than human because he had those underlying health conditions]."
I find that deeply objectionable on so many levels. What do we get next? "He was Gay / Black / Chinese / Jewish / Muslim? That's fine. Only we white, fit, heterosexual Christians deserve to live?"
That is the only thing that has made me feel in any way lonely at the moment
To continue the humorous side, because we must to stay sane...at least on this side of the pond the outrage is coupled with constant humor. Trump can't seem to open his mouth without being either self-aggrandizing, stupid or outrageous.
As a wit put together on Twitter this morning, after today's performance, here's Anthony Fauci, MD, in a state of chagrin!
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484
Continuing the humor theme:
The Toilet Paper shortage is because of the RAPTURE ... When the ROLL is called up yonder!
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
"Bensiamin wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 02:55"
Timmy;
I agree completely, but humor does have therapeutic (note British spelling!) functions:
--
Ah, gallows humour is not being unnecessarily cheerful. Instead it is essential.
There is a certainty that some of us will die from this. Being unnecessarily cheerful is your example of '1% man", who is clearly amusing himself by trolling.
Looking again at the UK figures, and remembering that we only test, thus diagnose, those who are both inherently vulnerable and also present with symptoms, our death rate from those diagnosed is 4.4%
Our graph is interesting:
It seems to be rather wide, but the forum seems to have started to embiggen stuff
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
"Teddy wrote on Thu, 19 March 2020 15:31"
........ I just had a guy tell me that our governor, Kate Brown, is the Beast, 666, spoken of in the Bible, and that if I follow orders and refuse to go to church then I will receive the "Mark of the Beast" in my forehead and will burn in hell with the Devil and his angels......
--
You must really live in Podunk! My condolences.....
Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 279
"Teddy wrote on Thu, 19 March 2020 13:31"
In addition to Alex's list above, our churches here in Oregon have also been closed down, thought I think it's a strong suggestion rather than an order at this point, but not sure of that. At any rate I just had a guy tell me that our governor, Kate Brown, is the Beast, 666, spoken of in the Bible, and that if I follow orders and refuse to go to church then I will receive the "Mark of the Beast" in my forehead and will burn in hell with the Devil and his angels.Sigh...There's no accounting for the level of ignorance displayed in the throes of a crisis....or even when life is going along as normal.
--
I've seen a lot of church closures where I live as well, though so far (from what little I've read on it) it's more the decisions of the churches themselves rather than the government outright telling them to close down (though it could also, to a certain extent, be the churches basing their decisions on what the government is recommending as far as large gatherings - last Sunday (the 15th), the Centers for Disease Control issued a recommendation that no more than 50 people gather together, while the White House recommended the next day that it be no more than 10 people).
And here in America, it sometimes does seem like most of our politicians are in league with the Devil. I mean seriously, have you seen some of the stuff they do?
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
I wonder if those who have faith and felt the need to go to a building and perform rhythmic chanting in the past will realise that they just need to worship their deity where they are, and NOT give money to Mr Preacher Man.
Instead they can offer direct help to people who truly need it
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484
"American_Alex wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 06:52"
"Teddy wrote on Thu, 19 March 2020 15:31"
........ I just had a guy tell me that our governor, Kate Brown, is the Beast, 666, spoken of in the Bible, and that if I follow orders and refuse to go to church then I will receive the "Mark of the Beast" in my forehead and will burn in hell with the Devil and his angels......
--
You must really live in Podunk! My condolences.....
--
No, not really, but it would seem that some people live in a continuous fog of conspiracy theory no matter where they live.
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484
If we don't flatten the curve, yes. That's exactly were every contry or locality is headed. For some localities it may well already be too late to stave off the same fate as Italy.
[Updated on: Mon, 23 March 2020 23:15]
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563
Thing is, as a last ditch, anyone that dire needs to have family (if they can't do it them selve) ask for zinc and hydroxychloroquine....
people in Nigeria are poisoning them selve taking it without the direction of their doc's. This is why 🍊 idiots needs to sit down and shut the vuck up.
zinc and hydroxychloroquine are in clinical trials right now for covid 19 but thing is these are approved and are not toxic or of limited toxicity in the case of hydroxychloroquine. I figure that depends on other condition that may increase the risk. But then is it any riskier than death?
There is no certainty of the efficacy of this combo in the treatment of covid 19. But it it has shown to be effective in SARS so If you or a loved one were in serious condition what would you do?
I can tell you if it was me, they would have to have a dammed good reason for refusing me That as a last request.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
"arich wrote on Tue, 24 March 2020 00:00"
Thing is, as a last ditch, anyone that dire needs to have family (if they can't do it them selve) ask for zinc and hydroxychloroquine....
people in Nigeria are poisoning them selve taking it without the direction of their doc's. This is why 🍊 idiots needs to sit down and shut the vuck up.
zinc and hydroxychloroquine are in clinical trials right now for covid 19 but thing is these are approved and are not toxic or of limited toxicity in the case of hydroxychloroquine. I figure that depends on other condition that may increase the risk. But then is it any riskier than death?
There is no certainty of the efficacy of this combo in the treatment of covid 19. But it it has shown to be effective in SARS so If you or a loved one were in serious condition what would you do?
I can tell you if it was me, they would have to have a dammed good reason for refusing me That as a last request.
--
I really do not want to be promoting any medicines that are not proven in this particular ailment please.
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563
Sure thing Timmy. Though I have to say we are all going to have some hard choices.
Life as we knew is done. This is not going to be easy.
I've lived as part of a pandemic for more than 20 years, gives me kind of a perspective. Mostly the drugs early on were killing people. How many do you think refused.
Reality. Actually there were a few, but mostly only because the drugs were making them sicker.
I'll fu** right off now.
Fair the well all. I mean that with all my heart. Me? I'll be ok.
A little context, perhaps! I spent a career in healthcare selling medical equipment to the US Government for military and emergency response...and the data does matter.
Italy has a health care system with a higher quality ranking than the US, and more doctors and beds per person than the US.
BUT, The United States has about 30 Intensive Care Unit beds per 100,000 people, which is very similar to Germany. Italy has about 2 ICU beds per 100,000.
I've been talking to peers and former colleagues, and they believe this is why we see the rationing of intensive care in Italy, and the mortality which results from such measures.
Right now there is no treatment for COVID-19. Hosptialized patients receive supportive care, and that varies depending on capability and capacity. Without enough ICU beds, the level of supportive care is poor - i.e. no ventilators. With more ICU beds (and ventilators!), then the quality of supportive care is much higher, and (in theory) the mortality rate is much lower.
A doctor friend also told me that a much larger clinical trial is going on at UCLA to test the two malarial drugs agains the COVID-19 coronavirus. Perhaps it will result in a treatment. Right now we don't have one, and that is a huge vulnerability. Think AIDS epidemic before Azidothymidine, which was not introduced until 1987!
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563
Least we forget AIDS has killed at least 32 million.
And I do know the state of things, I am on a community advisory board for the clinical trials unit of the infectious disease department in a teaching hospital.
BTW clinical trials for those drugs have been going on in China for some time now and Korea. From what I understand the results have been very positive.
zinc is a supplement approved by the FDA chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are both approved drugs. Not all are going to be able to take those drugs even if they do prove to be effective against covid 19. Just saying how many time have you heard of people in desperate need seeking out drug that are still in trials? If you say never. Well, we make of our selves what we are.
What the heck, there have only been a little less 19000 deaths so far, how many in 6 months to a year or more?
Actually what we need to begin with is test that are better that the max 70% accuracy we have now. The antibody test will be better but at best the won't be approved for more than a couple of weeks. Meanwhile, we have people that are asymptomatic walking around spreading the virus. We are going to be shocked by the extent of spread, we already know the extent is at least twice the numbers we know we have at present.... I hope I am wrong. But I am afraid I am not. In other words the curve is already set and little to do to ameliorate what's been set in motion.
But that's OK we have 30 beds for every 100,000 people. Me thinks it's going to get crowded.
To tell you the truth as soon as the antibody test is ready I'll be taking it, at least it will be more accurate that what we have going now. If it is as I think and I do indeed have the antibodies I'll be ready for action. Cuz I am not sitting this one out.
so I will well and truly be going now. been interesting, but then we've never seen times quite like this, don't know if we'll look back and call it interesting. We will not be the same. The first thing to go will be many lives then materialism. 😱. Gone 🎣 later.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
The challenge is that the internet is seen as authoritative by folk, Rich. I guarantee that as soon as I am in a deeply vulnerable position I will grasp for any passing straw from any source. That you may be wholly correct about these things cannot mean that the information is yet authoritative. It also may prove to be that you are not correct and that the information you are receiving turns out to have been misleading, and has misled many people including you.
I'm seeing a whole slew of emailed spam containing strange(!) advice right now. I just want to make sure that we, here, are authoritative. I know you are not doing this, but imagine if you were accidentally recommending this fool and snake oil salesman.
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484
So the orange baboon got up at in the White House briefing room the other evening and started promoting Chloroquine as a potential cure saying it was FDA approved for this crisis. It is not and the FDA issued a statement saying so following his pressor. But that didn't stop a husband and wife from hearing what he said and taking Chloroquine Phosphate, a product developed for cleaning aquariums, which resulted in his death and her hospitilazation.
On the one hand I think the couple are due to receive a Darwin Award and Darwin Award honorable mention. On the other hand the Orange baboon must bear some of the responsibility for lying to the nation and the world about it. Total stupidity on their part, and the president's for bringing it up in a totally inappropriate setting and manner, and lying about it on top of it all.
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484
Here in the US we're watching the Pro-Lifers clamoring for the elderly to be willing to die... Why am I not surprised?
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
And, in the spirit of a wee bit of comic relief after that last update about the Pro-Lifers (being the Evangelicals and other committed christians, etc.), I give you this:
THE MEANING OF DONALD TRUMP'S CORONAVIRUS QUACKERYA very illuminating article in today's The New Yorker magazine, with this intriguing byline: "...his conduct typified his leadership as the crisis has intensified: his dependency on Fox News for ideas and message amplification, his unshakable belief in his own genius..."
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
This dangerous idiot will get you all killed in the USA. You have too much deference to the role of president for the media to take him down and say clearly that he lies. They are too polite.
] 
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Re: Covid 19 - Coronavirus 
