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Volume 3 of the David and Jackson saga, titled The Food of Love began posting a few days ago, thanks to Timmy's patience and great HTML conversion skills. This volume follows A Friend of the Devil and We Could Be Heroes. Chapters 1 and 2 see them through the summer, but with chapter 3, the idyllic summer is about to change!
For you Shakespeare fans, the title is a direct link from The Bard. And, in case anyone misses it in the beginning credits, this volume couldn't have been completed without great help from c_m and Al_N. Thanks to both of them! They wanted no mention, so this is my only opportunity to give them credit and put them on the spot!
I look forward to reader comments!
Bensiamin
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JCDII
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Getting started |
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY USA
Registered: October 2016
Messages: 17
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Hi there - I'm a big Moody Blues fan and may have all the albums you mentioned in the last Chapter!
That being said, and not to be :(too) nitpicky, what year is the story taking place in now - 1978?
The reason I ask is that I thought the song - Your Wildest Dream, came out in the mid-80s. (?)
:I do love the story and Jackson and David too, even with all the religious undertones!
Hope Kevin can get past his 'catholic guilt'. I went to their schools also for 9 years!
Best - John
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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"JCDII wrote on Sat, 14 March 2020 17:33"Hi there - I'm a big Moody Blues fan and may have all the albums you mentioned in the last Chapter!
That being said, and not to be :(too) nitpicky, what year is the story taking place in now - 1978?
The reason I ask is that I thought the song - Your Wildest Dream, came out in the mid-80s. (?)
:I do love the story and Jackson and David too, even with all the religious undertones!
Hope Kevin can get past his 'catholic guilt'. I went to their schools also for 9 years!
Best - John
--
You make an interesting point. Shall we suspend disbelief or shall we insist that Bensiamin finds another track?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JCDII
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Getting started |
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY USA
Registered: October 2016
Messages: 17
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Suspend disbelief, by all means
No need to insist on a new track
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JCDII:
You have an eagle eye, and I greatly appreciate that among readers! It's harder than you might think to get ALL the details correct!
The year in which story takes place is 1978, specifically summer and running through September of 1979.
I'm pretty fanatical on researching the details, especially the timeline details, but this one got by me! In Your Wildest Dreams came out as a single and then was on the album The Other Side of Life, both in 1986.
The fix is in, and that song title is now revomed from the sentence talking aobut Moody Blues love songs.
There's a more intensive Moody Blues song session coming up in the story, and in a paranoid fit I just double checked all those release dates, and they were all before 1978!
Needless to say, I'm very happy you love the story and the charcters...religious undertones notwithstanding. Even for those readers who don't want to engage with religion, as such, the overarching big issue being raised is about personal identity and what constitutes it, and then by extension how that can (and often does) negatively effects understanding and accepting our sexual identity.
Thanks for the vote on "suspending disbelief" and the track error is now corrected.
Bensiamin
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I'm more than pleased to see another novel being released with these two special people in it. As I've noted before I never read a tale untill all chapters have been published. I can binge read that way and besides, I'm still waiting on the completion of stories from some authors that I started reading 17 years ago! LOL Can't wait to read this one in its entirety.
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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Today's chapter contains this gem of vocabulary usage
Quote:We cooked together and it turned out quite well, and the white wine we used for the poaching liquid was really good to sip while cooking and as an accompaniment to the dinner!
It reminds me of different uses of the qualifying word 'quite'
In England, 'quite well' means the thing was 'just about ok, bit not at all special'. For me this snippet damns the chef with faint praise.
Years ago I toured Europe on business with a gentleman from Washington DC. My job was to wine and dine him and soften him up because we were deciding whether to acquire his corporation. At one very expensive meal im Amsterdam he expressed the sentiment "This is quite good."
I was perturbed. My brief was to choose the very best of everything.
My response was "Only 'quite good'? I thought this was a rather good restaurant?"
We discussed his meaning, where his usage of 'quite good' meant 'excellent' and mine mean 'a bit shit, really, but I'm going to say it's fine in case I offend someone'.
He was an interesting chap(!). He collected condoms. Amsterdam would have been a treat for him, but we were there before Condomerie opened
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy: Very interesting observation that illustrates the difference in English usage and coloquialisms. I'm probalby dating myself by using it, as "quite well" is most likely a mid-20th century term when the focus was on avoiding effusive praise! This story is in 1970, and already for youth what had taken over was more extreme terms like far out, amazing, fabulous, etc., etc. They all get thrown around interchangably to the point that it's quite difficult to determine what is really being said.
It's not that much different than the response most of us get when we ask another person how they are. The vast majority of responses are "great!" If that's really the case, they why is the bankruptcy, divorce and suicide rate so high?
In this case, David grew up in a conservative family that didn't express its feelings, so correspondingly, all praise must be temepered too.
I'm curious how American readers understand the use of "quite well."
You never told us is "quite good" was an assessment limited to the food, or to the Amsterday offering of condoms!
Bensiamin
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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"Bensiamin wrote on Wed, 18 March 2020 15:38"
You never told us is "quite good" was an assessment limited to the food, or to the Amsterday offering of condoms!
--
The specialist condom store had not yet opened, as I recall. I imagine he would have considered it to be quite good
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I've always understood 'quite good' and 'quite well' to be polite understatements, meaning 'not bad', and 'good', dependent on context and circumstances.
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"timmy wrote on Wed, 18 March 2020 13:38"Today's chapter contains this gem of vocabulary usage
In England, 'quite well' means the thing was 'just about ok, bit not at all special'.
--
I think you misinterpret 'quite well.' We're you to substitute another phrase it would be along the lines of 'not too bad.' The meaning being, it (the meal) was not perfect but all in all turned out fine. 'Quite well,' does not mean excellent nor does it mean rather good, however, going back in time there existed the expression, 'quite lovely,' which donated the sense of something achieved well or being pleasant. Although that term might also be interpreted as dismissive, as in the instance of a grandmother examining a child's work. It rather depends on the tone and circumstance. The evidence that you interpret 'quite well,' as not very good at all, is illustrative of the capacity of the English language to convey unclear meaning, although I do (without wanting to criticise) believe it is you who in this case have misinterpreted the meaning? I wonder how others understand, 'quite well,' for myself it definitely means, 'not too bad,' and is a praise or mild self-congratulation.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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"Talo Segura wrote on Thu, 19 March 2020 06:38"
"timmy wrote on Wed, 18 March 2020 13:38"Today's chapter contains this gem of vocabulary usage
In England, 'quite well' means the thing was 'just about ok, bit not at all special'.
--
I think you misinterpret 'quite well.' We're you to substitute another phrase it would be along the lines of 'not too bad.' The meaning being, it (the meal) was not perfect but all in all turned out fine. 'Quite well,' does not mean excellent nor does it mean rather good, however, going back in time there existed the expression, 'quite lovely,' which donated the sense of something achieved well or being pleasant. Although that term might also be interpreted as dismissive, as in the instance of a grandmother examining a child's work. It rather depends on the tone and circumstance. The evidence that you interpret 'quite well,' as not very good at all, is illustrative of the capacity of the English language to convey unclear meaning, although I do (without wanting to criticise) believe it is you who in this case have misinterpreted the meaning? I wonder how others understand, 'quite well,' for myself it definitely means, 'not too bad,' and is a praise or mild self-congratulation.
--
Whever the nuances of interpretation, and I was exaggerating for effect, it damns with faint praise. In England that is almost universal.
Interesting that you choose 'quite lovely' as further example. That one does not damn with faint praise. Instead it indicates a certain genuine exquisiteness of (usually) beauty and/or behaviour in a young lady.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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American_Alex
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Toe is in the water |
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
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"Bensiamin wrote on Wed, 18 March 2020 11:38"Timmy: Very interesting observation that illustrates the difference in English usage and coloquialisms. I'm probalby dating myself by using it, as "quite well" is most likely a mid-20th century term when the focus was on avoiding effusive praise! This story is in 1970, and already for youth what had taken over was more extreme terms like far out, amazing, fabulous, etc., etc. They all get thrown around interchangably to the point that it's quite difficult to determine what is really being said.
It's not that much different than the response most of us get when we ask another person how they are. The vast majority of responses are "great!" If that's really the case, they why is the bankruptcy, divorce and suicide rate so high?
In this case, David grew up in a conservative family that didn't express its feelings, so correspondingly, all praise must be temepered too.
I'm curious how American readers understand the use of "quite well."
You never told us is "quite good" was an assessment limited to the food, or to the Amsterday offering of condoms!
--
In American English, idioms such as "quite well" are considered stiff and formal, as well as being a typical Anglicism. We prefer using adverbs such as "very" or "really" in everyday speech. Although, in this story, David's upper-class upbringing and private education would make him more likely to use the more formal form than the normal vulgate of the masses.
BTW, what is an "Amsterday"?
"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
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Your explanation of David's use of "quite well" is (to use a British phrase) spot on!
In addition to the upper class upbringing and and private education, some of that education was in England itself, which adds a whole list of phrases to a person's vocabulary...though they use them with different intent or meaning when they return to their own country. I suspect he occasionally spells "check" as "cheque!"
Bensiamin
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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"Bensiamin wrote on Thu, 19 March 2020 17:08"Your explanation of David's use of "quite well" is (to use a British phrase) spot on!
In addition to the upper class upbringing and and private education, some of that education was in England itself, which adds a whole list of phrases to a person's vocabulary...though they use them with different intent or meaning when they return to their own country. I suspect he occasionally spells "check" as "cheque!"
--
That ends my image of the USA being a classless society!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy: at the risk of popping your bubble, it's always been class stratified. The leaders of the colonists were looking for freedom and wealth. Then there was that slave problem. Don't forget the Gilded Age, per F. Scott Fitzgerald. And, more recently, Downtown Abbey reminided us of the American socialites looking to improve their financial circumstance while advancing up the class scale!
Back to British phrases and coloquialisms! In addition to their unique and interesting qualities, there's that priceles British tongue-in-cheek humor, that when done well is very hard to best (or is that beat?).
It is amazing how many people still think the coronavirus pandemic is either an inconvenience or a conspiracy plot--not withstanding the total deaths in Italy to date! Today on Quora a not too savvy Brit posted about it, complaining that the percentages are so low, "why are people so hysterical; it's pathetic!"
Then a very savvy Brit, with a wicked sense of humor, replied, and it is (in my estimation) a classic example of (in this case British) tongue in cheek humor.
Everyone should read it. Quora link.
I look forward to seeing the Forum responses.
Bensiamin
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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"Bensiamin wrote on Fri, 20 March 2020 04:16"Timmy: at the risk of popping your bubble, it's always been class stratified. The leaders of the colonists were looking for freedom and wealth. Then there was that slave problem. Don't forget the Gilded Age, per F. Scott Fitzgerald. And, more recently, Downtown Abbey reminided us of the American socialites looking to improve their financial circumstance while advancing up the class scale!
Back to British phrases and coloquialisms! In addition to their unique and interesting qualities, there's that priceles British tongue-in-cheek humor, that when done well is very hard to best (or is that beat?).
It is amazing how many people still think the coronavirus pandemic is either an inconvenience or a conspiracy plot--not withstanding the total deaths in Italy to date! Today on Quora a not too savvy Brit posted about it, complaining that the percentages are so low, "why are people so hysterical; it's pathetic!"
Then a very savvy Brit, with a wicked sense of humor, replied, and it is (in my estimation) a classic example of (in this case British) tongue in cheek humor.
Everyone should read it. Quora link.
I look forward to seeing the Forum responses.
--
I used to ask bizarre questions on Answerbag just for the hell of it. It always amused me when people took them seriously. I think it is the question that is the example of humour. The answer is rather too serious for my taste, albeit having scathing accuracy
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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"Bensiamin wrote on Thu, 19 March 2020 21:16"Everyone should read it. Quora link.
I look forward to seeing the Forum responses.
--
Well, I ran into the "sign in with Google or Facebook" wall and will not pursue this one further because of late everytime I choose either of those options lately I end up getting my account one or the other of my accounts hacked or otherwise cloned and my friends bothered... soooo... I'm hoping that Bensiamin will be good enough to finish what he started here and tell us what went down...?
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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Teddy: I'm happy to help you and any other readers having trouble with Google of Facebook sign ins!
In response to the question "You have just a 1% chance of dying form the Coronovirus if you are relatively fit and healthy. So why are people so hysterical? It's pathetic.
Was this response from Richard Look:
Ahhhh, Mr Michael Saxon. We've met before, have we not?
The schools are closed, so we could put together some assistance with the three R's, for those that need it.
Firstly, spelling: That's coronavirus, not corono. Cor-o-na-virus. If you are going to go away and read up on this (and I highly recommend that you do), you'll get better results if you spell it correctly.
Secondly, maths: 1% is one out of every hundred. Let's assume that's accurate for the sake of simplicity. It isn't, but I think simplicity is what's needed here.
That means that, roughly speaking, one out of every hundred people that catches it will die.
Let's move on to something a bit more complicated.
There's an infection rate of between 60% and 80%. We'll assume 70% for the sake of simplicity.
So, out of every hundred people, seventy of them will get infected.
Some geography now: The population of the UK is 65million people.
Back to maths. Work out the total number of infected: 65million divided by 100, then multiply that by 70.
The answer to that is 45.5million.
OK, back to our 1% from earlier. We can divide our 45.5million by 100 to get to 1%.
And the answer to that is: 450,000 dead people in the UK.
Shall we switch to some history? You're keen on Brexit, as I recall, and lots of Brexit supporters are keen on WW2, so we'll do a bit of 'contrast and compare'.
Total number of British war dead in WW2, civilians and military personnel, was 450,000.
Huh. How about that? 450,000 vs 450,000.
I think I'll just let that stand for a moment. Let it sink in.
Now, let's switch back to geography (well, socio-geography).
On average, each person in UK society knows around 150 people. Your immediate social circle will be around seven/eight people - family, close friends, etc. Your 'second circle' will be four, maybe five groups of those seven (around 30 people) - friends of friends, people on your park football team or model railway group or whatever. And you'll have other 'nodding acquaintences' through them, up to around 150 people. It's called 'Dunbar's number'.
So, you personally are acquainted with 150 people on a reasonably close basis.
Back to maths.
Remember that 1% was 1 in 100?
And you know 150 people?
Well, how likely is it now looking that you personally know someone who is going to die?
Still, as you yourself have said, 'it's pathetic' to worry about your parents, or grandparents, or your friends parents, or whatever, is it not? Or even that 1% coming up for one of your mates?
I would wait for a response, but your account seems to have been banned. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
Bensiamin
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"timmy wrote on Thu, 19 March 2020 11:50"--
That ends my image of the USA being a classless society!
Contrary to popular belief, we were never a "classless" society.
The classic American example is how Old Money looks down upon New Money.
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The Composer
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: September 2018
Messages: 87
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That was a superb riposte.
Having said that: 'in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.' Benjamin Franklin.
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American_Alex
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Toe is in the water |
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
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As for period accuracy, I have to let you know that the BMW 2002Tii was NOT turbocharged. In fact, BMW never offered a turbo in any of the neueklasse series; they didn't start experimenting with turbocharging until the F1 motor of the early-mid 1980's. In fact, in 1978, the only turbocharged cars being sold were the Porsche 930, and perhaps a Merceded diesel model.
As for 'class' and language is concerend; not even a Boston Brahmin would use the spelling "cheque". Only Canadians still use that spelling, and then only those living in Ontario and eastward.
"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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"American_Alex wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 13:43" In fact, in 1978, the only turbocharged cars being sold were the Porsche 930, and perhaps a Merceded diesel model.
--
I take it that the SAAB 99 Turbo was not sold in the US, and you are referring only to US markets? Wikipedia suggests that SAAB had a US market.
Wikipedia's article on the 02 series has an interesting paragraph:
Quote:The 2002 Turbo was launched at the 1973 Frankfurt Motor Show. This was BMW's first turbocharged production car[8] and the first turbocharged car since General Motors' brief offerings in the early 1960s. It produced 127 kW (170 hp) at 5,800 rpm,[1] with 240 N⋅m (177 lbf⋅ft) of torque. The 2002 Turbo used the 2002 tii engine with a KK&K turbocharger and a compression ratio of 6.9:1 in order to prevent engine knocking. Kugelfischer mechanical fuel injection was used, with integrated boost enrichment feature. The 2002 Turbo was introduced just before the 1973 oil crisis, therefore only 1,672 were built.[1]
[Updated on: Sat, 21 March 2020 14:40]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy - thanks for that Wikipedia quotation. It is precisely the one I went to in order to confirm my memories of the 2002tii that a good friend had, with KK&K turbocharger. It's color was Colorado yellow, and was both an eyefull and a performer.
[Updated on: Sat, 21 March 2020 22:40]
Bensiamin
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American_Alex
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Toe is in the water |
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
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"timmy wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 10:38"
"American_Alex wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 13:43" In fact, in 1978, the only turbocharged cars being sold were the Porsche 930, and perhaps a Merceded diesel model.
--
I take it that the SAAB 99 Turbo was not sold in the US, and you are referring only to US markets? Wikipedia suggests that SAAB had a US market.
Wikipedia's article on the 02 series has an interesting paragraph:
"Quote:"The 2002 Turbo was launched at the 1973 Frankfurt Motor Show. This was BMW's first turbocharged production car[8] and the first turbocharged car since General Motors' brief offerings in the early 1960s. It produced 127 kW (170 hp) at 5,800 rpm,[1] with 240 N⋅m (177 lbf⋅ft) of torque. The 2002 Turbo used the 2002 tii engine with a KK&K turbocharger and a compression ratio of 6.9:1 in order to prevent engine knocking. Kugelfischer mechanical fuel injection was used, with integrated boost enrichment feature. The 2002 Turbo was introduced just before the 1973 oil crisis, therefore only 1,672 were built.[1]
--
I suppose the SAAB 99 turbo may've been offered in the US by 1978, but then SAAB had such a small market share back then, being sold almost exclusively in the northeastern US. Of those, perhaps a few dozen total were turbo models. I almost doubt there was a SAAB dealership in Oregon at the time. Perhaps the occasional Volvo dealership carried SAABS, but they were very rare here in the US at the time.
And, as far as any turbo model in 1973, they were most certainly not offered in N. America; that was the first year of stringent US emissions standards, and BMW's of that and the next model year were noted for being the only cars resorting to using a very expensive and fragile thermal reactor to meet standards. A turbo model would never use this type of exhaust treatment. A limited run of 1900 cars worldwide would qualify as a rarity, made mostly for racers and collectors. The "Tii" model designation stood for "Touring International Injected", and had no reference to a turbocharger.
"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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"American_Alex wrote on Sun, 22 March 2020 14:05"
"timmy wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 10:38"
"American_Alex wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 13:43" In fact, in 1978, the only turbocharged cars being sold were the Porsche 930, and perhaps a Merceded diesel model.
--
I suppose the SAAB 99 turbo may've been offered in the US by 1978, but then SAAB had such a small market share back then, being sold almost exclusively in the northeastern US. Of those, perhaps a few dozen total were turbo models. I almost doubt there was a SAAB dealership in Oregon at the time. Perhaps the occasional Volvo dealership carried SAABS, but they were very rare here in the US at the time.
--
Small market share notwithstanding, these two statements cannot both be correct. Perhaps we can find a lomg term BMW person to give us the actual answer for BMW.
I expect an enterprising one of us might email BMW HQ and ask if they have time to answer while switching production to ventilators?
[Updated on: Sun, 22 March 2020 15:33]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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American_Alex
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Toe is in the water |
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
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"timmy wrote on Sun, 22 March 2020 11:24"
"American_Alex wrote on Sun, 22 March 2020 14:05"
"timmy wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 10:38"
"American_Alex wrote on Sat, 21 March 2020 13:43" In fact, in 1978, the only turbocharged cars being sold were the Porsche 930, and perhaps a Merceded diesel model.
--
I suppose the SAAB 99 turbo may've been offered in the US by 1978, but then SAAB had such a small market share back then, being sold almost exclusively in the northeastern US. Of those, perhaps a few dozen total were turbo models. I almost doubt there was a SAAB dealership in Oregon at the time. Perhaps the occasional Volvo dealership carried SAABS, but they were very rare here in the US at the time.
--
Small market share notwithstanding, these two statements cannot both be correct. Perhaps we can find a lomg term BMW person to give us the actual answer for BMW.
I expect an enterprising one of us might email BMW HQ and ask if they have time to answer while switching production to ventilators?
--
A quick bit of research confirms that the SAAB 99 turbo was first introduced as a 1979 model late in 1978. Whether this was also introduced in the US at the same time is unlikely; at that period, US emissions control regulations were the most stringent in the world, and just the time needed to get approval was usually the better part of a year or longer. If I remember correctly (having been heavily involved with auto rally starting at about that period, and at the time working at a Porsche-Audi-Mercedes dealership) that the SAAB turbo wasn't introduced into the US before the 1981 model year.
Regardless, no Tii model was ever turbocharged from the factory. In the model naming convention of the time, a "k" for "kompressor" would've been thrown in if it had. In later models, the last 2 digits (corresponding to the engine displacement) were increased by about 1.5 to reflect the larger 'equivalent displacement'.
This reminds me of a funny story to a picture I once saw online. The guy posting was showing off his new tattoo of 'the turbocharger on his car'. The accompanying photo clearly showed a tattoo of an alternator....
[Updated on: Sun, 22 March 2020 21:54]
"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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Remind us, how are you enjoying the story?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy: thanks for getting us off turbochargers and back onto the story.
It's getting heavy, but so is life, and David and Jackson are about to enter the most challenging time of their life.
You can, though, dear readers, rest assured there is life at the end of the tunnel.
Bensiamin
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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I have finally got to the point where, instead of just reading it as a story, it has personal meaning for me. I'm in chapter 8, not really at a specific point, and we are dealing with identity, not for the first time. That's been going on a lot. For most of my life I've glossed over things that I ought to have paid attention to. I've done so with this until today
When I was Jackson's age I was not gay, not in my head. In my outlook, boy was I gay, though I tried not to be. I think I would have had boxes in my private identity chart, had I thought about it, that said 'heterosexual' and 'trying not to love a boy' and 'head over heels in love'.
Alone, those would have done no real good for me. I'd have been satisfied with that. After all I only understood I was gay when I was 48, or only said the words aloud. That wasn't even 20 years ago.
Had there been a real person who saw I was a kid in trouble in those days, a non judgemental one, I would have got further with my identity, and just maybe saved myself a world of self inflicted pain and psychological damage.
[Updated on: Mon, 23 March 2020 08:46]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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I have my doubts about Pastor Dave's non denominational service, and they grow as the service structure develops.
He is creating a christian service without their christ figure. That makes it christian with an old testament slant, and thus almost Abrahamic non denominational. There is nothing there for an atheist, a Hindu, a Buddhist, and precious little except the Abrahamic basics for a Muslim. Jews can get by with the OT stuff, because loads of psalms are in it.
Were he a real figure I'd be telling him to get over his beliefs and create a framework where all could gain something. I don't mind good tunes, but the words inside them are different. "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace according to thy word" states explicitly that the permission of some sort of supreme being is required. The original Latin does nothing to dispel that:
"Quote:"Nunc dimittis servum tuum, Domine, secundum verbum tuum in pace:
Quia viderunt oculi mei salutare tuum
Quod parasti ante faciem omnium populorum:
Lumen ad revelationem gentium, et gloriam plebis tuae Israel.
Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto,
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
So, Pastor Dave, what gives?
[Updated on: Mon, 23 March 2020 10:44]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Tim: thanks for such a personal posting about identity.
It has been a repeated theme in these stories becuase it plays such an important and central role in the lives of us all...and there is so little done to inform people about it as they grow up. So for me, like you, it was late in life to sort it out (still a work in progress!), and it can't but leave a sense of resignation and regret about time wasted and opportunity lost.
You put your finger on something else that is critically important, and that is the role of non-judgmental and supportive and accepting adults to help along those kids in trouble.
And, for the record, in our youth, we're ALL kids in trouble to greater or lesser degree, by definition!
With those kinds of real people in our lives, and idealy in a family or band or tribe setting that is also open and non-judgmental and supporting, we'd be enabled to become all we can be, and as you so painfully put it, save ourselves "a world of self inflicted pain and psychological damage."
The other huge problem is that the majority of institutions within our society (educational system, religious system, etc.) are not only not optimized to make this happen, many are designed to prevent it from happening. That is what is happening to Kevin, who is struggling mightily to become who he is!
Bensiamin
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Tim;
Again, you've put your finger on a vibrant issue at work in David's life. First, he's not just trying to work this service out for his job, to make it open and non-denominational for students, etc. He's also working out for himself what it means and what the implications are. He's already acknowledged he is unable to push the "Reset" button and wipe his religious slate clean, because he knows full well that being a self-declared a-gnostic or a-theist is not satisfactory. We all believe...in something...even if that something is a mental construct we define as nothing, or no god, or whatever.
There is a "christ figure" in his thinking and process, but it has already become implicit rather than explicit. He's looking for a cross for the worship space, and one will appear, and that by itself plus the meaning in the texts, etc. is the christ figure. His big problem is what Campbell describes as being bound to the religion or belief system we were raised with, because it is structurally part of our identity...and very hard to fully disconnect from.
You're right, when you observe that "There is nothing there for an atheist, a Hindu, a Buddhist," because all the students are "christians" in one form or another. Remember, he said early on he would build the service based on the student mix...though he didn't know what he'd do if there were Hindus or Buddhists or Muslims! He's doing this in a self-described "christian nation" in the late '70s, so no surprise all the students are "Christians."
Watching people disengage and process and restructure their worldview and belief system can be frustrating and even maddening, but each person has to do it their way...even someone in the rold David is in. I have friends who dramatically left Christianity and became Buddhist--one now a monk, another a nun. Others for who the disengagement and re-structuring process took years, and they ended up what the Church perjoratively labels "nominal Christians." However, what the Church misses is that most nominal Christians are created by the rigid, exclusionary and judgmental church itself!
I hope you noted that he is getting a great deal of imput from his "resident atheist," who himself is realizing something else about himself: that while he's now a self-declared atheist, he's still "spiritual." That's another process that will have to be worked out.
As the old maxim goes, "no one said this would be easy." It never is. It's usually not logical or consistent, either!
Bensiamin
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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David has mentioned non christian religions (and faiths, come to that), before, though. He's not a silly man as written, yet he's not growing into his ambitions yet. I'm looking forward to his finding out that what he's building misses the mark.
I've no dea of the religious makeup of the geography this is set. I'll bet, though, that there is a diverse community in the educational establishment, but one that doesn't shout its needs from the rooftops.
In the UK in 1971, 2, 3, a notionally christian nation, at the University of Birmingham, we had a very small openly Jewish contingent who worshipped in the Guuld of Undergraduates Union (posh, eh) in a room they booked each week. Naturally we laughed about it. We laughed far less about the small and passionate groupe of the Gay Lib folk. Oddly, they were almost a religion in their own right. I wish I'd managed to be brave enough to join the latter.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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In 1978, especially in a western state lacking a major metro area like San Francisco or Los Angeles, the setting was pretty much that contained in the notion "white christian nation." Portland had a Jewish population (mentioned in the story) but a very small African-American population, and while it did have both a Japanese and Chinese population, both were very small and somewhat isolated. Just a look at on-line college year books for the period shows that for colleges like this one, there were very few, if any African Americans or Asians.
At this stage in his progression, David has been strong or committed enough to joing the gay lib folk, but is still sorting through his own faith...and that is (typically) a long term process. Most people don't just walk away or flip a switch. Religion with its associated belief systems and values is so deeply seated in a person's identity and workd view that it's typically a process spread out over many years. David's moved to a metaphoric understanding in a year or two, so he's certainly fully engaged in the process!
The process is also helped as he's realized that he got stuck along the way, first in Stage 3 of Fowler's "Stages of Faith" model, and then again in Stage 4. Once he got past those sticking points, he's more liberated to do the work on his own belief system. He is growing in to his ambitions, but that process is spread over years, not months.
Bensiamin
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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And yet he does not have to espouse other religions to recognise them, He has, and explicitly.
His 'masters' will not criticise him because they come from the background you state (0.9 probability). Yet he might reasonably criticise himself for having been aware and yet not putting that awareness into action nor for asking his students what they think.
Perhaps he does as time passes. I only comment in the story-present since I am reading this tale as I publish it
[Updated on: Thu, 26 March 2020 19:48]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13772
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...I can say that, in a good way, I am finding this tale heavy going.
What I mean is that it is not simply entertaining. It is making me think about myself. That is rare. So the heavy going element is inside my head, considering how my own life has gone, how it changed when I learned and accepted my Identity, and how I feel when I have to subsume some of that identity by 'request' of my wife
[Updated on: Fri, 27 March 2020 11:23]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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American_Alex
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Toe is in the water |
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
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As for the storyline of Kevin, sadly I could see that coming 3 chapters back. How could Will compete against a religion which invokes eternal damnation and gives you magic talismans? Especially if your parents have already promised you for the clergy? The same story gets repeated over and over. It reminded me of a guy who I hadn't thought of in probably 30 years..
This story reminded me of Bill, a guy I knew back in high school, then later at college. He was always nice to me when we were alone, but a homophobic bully when with his catholic grade-school buddies (a lot of kids went to catholic school for grade school, but went to public school for secondary education). Once he actually propositioned me. I might've agreed if he wasn't so conflicted and unpredictable. Bill was tall (6'6"), blond, and really quite beautiful, especially when he smiled. Of course, his parents were uber-catholic, his father being the head of the local Knights of Columbus.
The summer between my freshman and sophomore years at college, I heard that Bill had committed suicide. From people who had been closer to him, it was well known that he'd come out to his parents, and they did not take it well. Between the shock of the event, the public noteriety, and the embarassment of the church not allowing him to be buried in a catholic cemetary where the family plot was (suicide is also a mortal sin, it seems), his parents separated, his father dropped out of all public life, and a year or so later drank himself to death.
The reality is that the Roman Catholic church is a sanctuary for sexually frustrated men, regardless of their sexual orientation. I would go further to suggest that sexual frustration may be single largest reason why young men enter the priesthood. You would think that in matters of the heart, they should know enough to not get involved, but unfortunately, getting involved in people's personal affairs is something they excel at, and do very badly with.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 March 2020 14:48]
"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
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Alex: Sorry to learn that you had a personal experience that paralleled that of Will with a friend in your youth. Your description is certainly salutary and makes the case in spades.
In my experience within and without Protestantism, there is little real understanding of the hard and rigid stance going back to Medieval theology, and the dominant roles that guilt and obedience play.
As David told Fred in the story, I read and studied it, but that is theory and very different than being raised in it. To make sure I wasn't off track I sought out a friend who is a Catholic deacon to validate my assumptions, and the astonishing fact (to those outside the Catholic Church, and even many within it) is what he said about it.
In much of Protestantism, it is possible to be a homosexual and a member in good standing if you don't act on it. "Whereas a catholic was outright condemned. No need to act on your sexuality, you were simply depraved. Why? Because despite the 'softening' stance of Rome (with the current Pope), the Catechism has not changed. It is still a psychological disorder inasmuch as it is something one chooses. Hence, you are choosing a lifestyle that is utterly depraved, therefore choosing to abandon God willingly. The Church is not willing to acknowledge that homosexuality is not a choice. Science be damned (think Galileo)." Very few outsiders "could know the actual depth that a cradle catholic is indoctrinated... let alone an Irish Catholic."
It's much the same in Eastern Orthodoxy - the persecution of homosexuals in Russia is not a purely political maneuver. It is a theocratic position with church and state joining hands.
The net of all of that is part of the motivation in wading this deep into some pretty substantial and sticky subject matter in these stories: because this is the root cause, and continues to take a personal toll in the lives of homosexuals...even in 2020!
Bensiamin
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American_Alex
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Toe is in the water |
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
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One trait I've noticed about Roman Catholics is their ability to completely disregard the teachings of their leaders. It seems that 2 millenia of history binds them together more than silly, sexually frustrated clergy does. In most other denominations, if you don't believe the leadership, you leave that denomination. Aside from a fairly large number of fallen catholics joining the Episcopal church (and then, usually joining 'high' Episcopal congregations), it just doesn't mappen much.
"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
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The Food of Love 
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