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When I was a kid...  [message #77717] Mon, 05 April 2021 21:37 Go to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13591



At school one senior boy, a prefect (boy in authority over other boys), expressed an interest in a younger boy to that boy, privately and directly. While he was not expelled, he was treated as being disgusting, was excluded from the school, and only allowed to sit his final exams in private. This was circa 1967.

Now I am an old fart I still dream of the ideal of being (as a boy) able to tell another boy that I find him attractive and would like to explore where that might lead, perhaps by a date. Yet I still suspect that many boys receiving  that overture would react as they did in the 1960s.

What will it take for it to be totally normal for a boy to ask another boy out on a date in the same way that boys may ask girls and girls ask boys?

[Updated on: Tue, 06 April 2021 21:09]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77719 is a reply to message #77717] Tue, 06 April 2021 04:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Geron Kees is currently offline  Geron Kees

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It will never be a moment of total ease, I suspect. Even if all kids were raised with a broad awareness of and acceptance for sexuality in all its forms, there are going to be many members of both sexes that are simply not attracted to members of their own gender. Even if they get asked by someone of the same gender for a date and politely turn them down, there is bound to be some tension as a result of the interaction. Some attentions will fall into the category of 'unwanted' no matter how civilly people are raised on the subject.

Without sexuality being taught to kids as 'good or bad' or 'normal' and 'abnormal', though, it is likely that more interactions would result in a successful outcome, simply because there would not be that fear and shame standing at the back of it all. If kids are taught that what they feel is natural and not something to be ashamed of, they are much more likely to say yes to someone they like, and at least try it out. A date is not sex, and a relationship can be 'special' even without going as far as sex. But people in their teens are much more likely to progress to sex at some point, and there would be the moment were a final decision would have to be made.

I don't see this relaxed view of sexuality happening anytime soon, so it's kind of moot, anyway.

And...why does my little flag always say I am in Italy, when I am in New York?? Smile

[Updated on: Tue, 06 April 2021 04:10]

Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77720 is a reply to message #77719] Tue, 06 April 2021 05:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

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Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
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"Geron Kees wrote on Mon, 05 April 2021 21:07"
And...why does my little flag always say I am in Italy, when I am in New York?? Smile

--
Are you using a proxy server to access the internet? That could account for you Italian flag IF the flag is driven by the location of whatever server you're using to surf the web.

I'm inclined to agree with you Geron, that there will always be added tension to most situations where a boy expresses a romantic or sexual interest in another boy.





“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77721 is a reply to message #77719] Tue, 06 April 2021 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin

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Everything you say is true, and it will also take a while to get there... if we do. Besides the basic shame and embarassment that still surround sex itself, the larger issue of sexuality has to be addressed at the family and culture levels. Kids grow up with their parents modeling for them (consciously and unconsciously), and a lot of it starts there. It doesn't matter if same-sex marriage is legal as long as most of the kids in the country are raised to view same-sex attraction as disordered or depraved (there's the religious teaching coming through) or simply abnormal (the secular cultural view coming through), and on top of the family there's the tribes each person are part of and the institutions they belong to.

I try to address some of that in the Kaiser stories. How radical would it be if parents just share the facts with their kids about people being on a sexual continuum and that "it's possible" when you get older you'll be attraced to the same sex. Or, to have make the "birds & bees" talk inclusive of the range of sexuality instead of the foregone conclusion that it's about hetero sex and avoiding pregnancy! 

The latest Pew surveyshowed almost 16% of Generation Z kids identifying as LGBT, so there is a major shift. I still bet that the majority of them carry along a ton of baggage like shame about sex, parental disapproval, etc., etc. Until we get to that point in our societies, I don't see Timmy's hypothetical situation having a positive outcome for most. However, isn't that what we're all concerned about and working towards in one way or another?



Bensiamin
Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77730 is a reply to message #77721] Wed, 07 April 2021 04:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Geron Kees is currently offline  Geron Kees

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Yes! Acceptance needs to happen before any sort of real progress can happen. Even a grudging acceptance is acceptance. But we aren't even close to that with a lot of people.
Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77731 is a reply to message #77717] Wed, 07 April 2021 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cole parker is currently offline  cole parker

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I was discussing this with Timmy and he asked me to post my take on this subject, which is:

The one thing you didn't mention in your forum piece was, straight boys are generally scared out of their wits when they ask a girl for a date.  Probably just as scared as a boy asking a boy.  The fear is how they'll feel if they get shot down.  It's devastating to their ego.  Probably somewhat different from what a boy feels being shot down by a boy, and possibly worse.  The gay boy can accept that the one he's asking isn't gay, and that explains the rejection.  The straight boy has to accept it was him alone that didn't cut the mustard, wasn't good enough, was derelict in some way.Now if the gay boy is asking a boy he knows is gay and gets rejected, I guess that's pretty much what the straight boy feels, and maybe worse because the straight boy still has a vast field full of flowers and weeds to walk through and pick, and the gay boy doesn't.C

[Updated on: Wed, 07 April 2021 15:16]

Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77734 is a reply to message #77719] Thu, 08 April 2021 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark

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Registered: April 2013
Messages: 260



"Geron Kees wrote on Mon, 05 April 2021 22:07"

--

I am reminded of ChrisR when he used to be here.  It seemed like he'd get a different national flag next to his username every time he posted.

To answer Timmy's original question - I do not know, but I would almost dare say that we're getting closer to an answer with each passing day.
Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77735 is a reply to message #77731] Thu, 08 April 2021 08:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13591



"cole parker wrote on Wed, 07 April 2021 16:14"
I was discussing this with Timmy and he asked me to post my take on this subject, which is:

The one thing you didn't mention in your forum piece was, straight boys are generally scared out of their wits when they ask a girl for a date.  Probably just as scared as a boy asking a boy.  The fear is how they'll feel if they get shot down.  It's devastating to their ego.  Probably somewhat different from what a boy feels being shot down by a boy, and possibly worse.  The gay boy can accept that the one he's asking isn't gay, and that explains the rejection.  The straight boy has to accept it was him alone that didn't cut the mustard, wasn't good enough, was derelict in some way.Now if the gay boy is asking a boy he knows is gay and gets rejected, I guess that's pretty much what the straight boy feels, and maybe worse because the straight boy still has a vast field full of flowers and weeds to walk through and pick, and the gay boy doesn't.C[/font-size]

--
As a teenager I never had any problem asking girls out. I think it was because I was never really interested in them as girls, just as people. I quite often left a party with the girl who had been someoine else's girlfriend up until that party. Of course at 17 or so the girlfriend/boyfriend relationships were pretty transient anyway, amd the parties were fondle-fests im the dark with booze and no parents.

Once I accidentally left with the girl who was sitting next to the one I asked out, which was odd.

Put me next to an attractive boy, though, and i was tongue tied. Not because I was afraid of rejection, but because I was unable to speak witlhout getitng my worms in a fuddle.

But none  of that is what led my to the original thought, though I suspect it fed into it.

Evem if it is likely to be socially acceptable that a boy is gay, when does it become socially acceptable for hm to ask another boy out?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
rights and Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77736 is a reply to message #77735] Thu, 08 April 2021 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin

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I guess my response to "Even if it is likely to be socially acceptable that a boy is gay, when does it become socially acceptable for hm to ask another boy out?" is that when one happens, the other naturally happens.

To reach the level of social acceptability, though, requres more than cultural political awareness. LGBTQ Nation had a piece yesterday on workplace discrimination that said, "A new study shows that almost a quarter of workers know that LGBTQ employees are treated unfairly on the job. And almost half have heard anti-LGBTQ comments at their place of employment." This in the USA where there are legal LGBT rights and same-sex marriage laws, etc. If it's happening in the workplace, we can be certain it is also happening in schools... perhaphs more so!

To me that says most of it is still subconcious and/or unspoken... which goes back to familial, cultural and religious beliefs.

Embedded in that cultural morass are all the stigmas applied to LGB people, the self-imposted limitations on what LGB youth can see them self becoming, and the reality that society is still full of self-appointed gender police. The risk when a gay youth gets to the point of Tim's question, of asking someone out, is that they are stepping across the threshold in a (typically) scary way, one from which they may not be able to return.



Bensiamin
Re: rights and Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77743 is a reply to message #77736] Fri, 09 April 2021 05:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ray2x is currently offline  ray2x

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Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 420



With all the bits of information I now have in my mind, I certainly was a gay boy, just totally unaware of that fact. I had moments where I felt a deeper feeling for some of my friends, but thought that every boy or even every girl would have similiar feelings for another of the same sex. It felt natural to want to be with one guy, to the point where some would begin to wonder just how deep of feelings we had for one another. That one boy was in 6th grade. We were always together, sat next to each other in class, ate lunch together and so on. He was a red haired boy, with a temper to match his red hairness. I was a dark hair Mexican boy, quite shy and quiet. We did not ask each other to be friends, it happened in a natural way. But I guess we were sending out signals that there was something going on. Maybe that's why our teacher separated us, which made my firend just spitting mad. His brother probably felt something else was going on, to the point of telling me that I was good for his brother. I had a very good friendship with by 6th grade red hair boy until it suddenly ended when he moved during the summer before 7th grade. He had no time to tell me, so I had to continue with life.
So he and I did not feel we were gay or having a gay relationship but that would not have been an issue in the 60s. However, we certainly were broadcasing those signals.
Re: rights and Re: When I was a kid...  [message #77748 is a reply to message #77743] Fri, 09 April 2021 20:06 Go to previous message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

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Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 469



"ray2x wrote on Thu, 08 April 2021 22:43"
With all the bits of information I now have in my mind, I certainly was a gay boy, just totally unaware of that fact. I had moments where I felt a deeper feeling for some of my friends, but thought that every boy or even every girl would have similiar feelings for another of the same sex. It felt natural to want to be with one guy, to the point where some would begin to wonder just how deep of feelings we had for one another. That one boy was in 6th grade. We were always together, sat next to each other in class, ate lunch together and so on. He was a red haired boy, with a temper to match his red hairness. I was a dark hair Mexican boy, quite shy and quiet. We did not ask each other to be friends, it happened in a natural way. But I guess we were sending out signals that there was something going on. Maybe that's why our teacher separated us, which made my firend just spitting mad. His brother probably felt something else was going on, to the point of telling me that I was good for his brother. I had a very good friendship with by 6th grade red hair boy until it suddenly ended when he moved during the summer before 7th grade. He had no time to tell me, so I had to continue with life.
So he and I did not feel we were gay or having a gay relationship but that would not have been an issue in the 60s. However, we certainly were broadcasing those signals.

--

Thank you for sharing this story. It reminds me very much of one of my own experiences at that age with a 5th grade boy named Sidney. I'm afraid in my case, though the friendship was real, the attraction and desires that go beyond friendship were entirely one sided on my part. 



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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