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Need a little help with something  [message #71232] Fri, 11 March 2016 15:18 Go to next message
Matthew is currently offline  Matthew   United Kingdom

Toe is in the water

Registered: February 2015
Messages: 73



Hey, i've been on a long break from writing, well a couple of months and i've just started again, but i'm a little confused about something and could use some help, it's not super important, but it is something i would like to get right

I'm writing the next part to my story The Life of Matt Summers and the two main characters are now engaged, but i'm not sure if i'm meant to use Fiance, Fiancee, Fiancée or Fiancé

I mean they're both boys, so i really don't know which is the correct word, so any help would be great thank you Smile
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71233 is a reply to message #71232] Fri, 11 March 2016 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13454



The masculine is 'fiancé'



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71234 is a reply to message #71233] Fri, 11 March 2016 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel   United Kingdom

On fire!
Location: England
Registered: November 2003
Messages: 1756



Similarly we tend to have blond men and blonde women, but I don't think it's a rule.
Hugs
Nigel



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71235 is a reply to message #71234] Fri, 11 March 2016 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark   United States

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Registered: April 2013
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As Timmy noted, with one "e" is for a guy, two "e's" for a woman; Dictionary.com indicates that it can be spelled either with or without the accent mark on the first e.  (And as a side note to Nigel's comment, Dictionary.com does have an interesting "Usage Note" on its entry for "blonde" concerning the "e" at the end.)
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71237 is a reply to message #71234] Fri, 11 March 2016 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthew is currently offline  Matthew   United Kingdom

Toe is in the water

Registered: February 2015
Messages: 73



Thank you guys, i really do hate the English language sometimes and instead of guessing like i normally do with these things, i decided to do the smart thing and ask for help, because, well i suck at grammar and spelling it seems lol

I'm going through the chapters of the first story for another site and the amount of times i use too instead of to is just embarrassing and i apparently thought "me and Ben" was the right instead of "Ben and I" which i now realize is the other way around, so thank the lord for the find and replace button on open office lol (then again, now that i said that, i bet someone will now say i have it wrong now and right the first time round hehe)
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71238 is a reply to message #71232] Sat, 12 March 2016 03:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Geron Kees is currently offline  Geron Kees   United States

Toe is in the water
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Messages: 81



If you are trying to be proper, Fiance is the masculine form of this term, and Fiancee is the feminine. Unless you are defining a gay couple as "husband and wife" (some couples do that), the masculine is actually the proper usage for both participants.

On your other post, if you wish to write fiction that is so proper it hurts, confine yourself to the usage "Ben and I". Otherwise, one of the nice things about fiction is it's informality. A great many writers simply pick their own comfortable little sphere and write within it. "Me and Ben" could be considered a colloquialism, or informal usage - but not necessarily incorrect.
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71240 is a reply to message #71237] Sat, 12 March 2016 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel   United Kingdom

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Location: England
Registered: November 2003
Messages: 1756



Matthew, you are in danger of falling into a trap with 'Ben and me' (correct in this context).
I was taught in infants school that it was courteous to put the other person first.  So it is 'Ben and I' or 'Ben and me' according to the grammatical function.  'Ben and I' must be subject of the sentence, 'Ben and me' direct object, indirect object or after a preposition.  Prepositions take the oblique case.
Would you say 'They gave I an icy stare'?  No.  Therefore you do not say 'They gave Ben and I an icy stare', but 'They gave Ben and me an icy stare'.
I wince when I hear 'between you and I', not only because it is wrong, but it is said by pretentious people trying to sound knowledgeable.  You + I = we.  You + me = us.  Between we?  Never.
If you are a writer and have not mastered grammar, think of being operated on by a surgeon who has not mastered the use of forceps or a scalpel.
Hugs
Nigel



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71242 is a reply to message #71237] Sat, 12 March 2016 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark   United States

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Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 230



Quote:
iMatthew wrote on Fri, 11 March 2016 14:38Thank you guys, i really do hate the English language sometimes and instead of guessing like i normally do with these things, i decided to do the smart thing and ask for help, because, well i suck at grammar and spelling it seems lol

--

There's nothing wrong with asking - that's what I personally think is one of the purposes of this forum in the first place.  English isn't always the easiest language in the world to work with, even for those of us raised in the language (and even for those of us for whom it's the only language we're fluent in); there are a lot of rules, and then there are a lot of exceptions to those rules, and that doesn't even take into consideration the various regional versions of it (British English, American English, Australian English, etc.) and the particular rules of that one version that doesn't always exist in other versions (not just accents, but for things like spelling - honour/honor, color/colour, theater/theatre, etc.).
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71244 is a reply to message #71240] Sat, 12 March 2016 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13454



"Nigel wrote on Sat, 12 March 2016 11:41"
Matthew, you are in danger of falling into a trap with 'Ben and me' (correct in this context).
I was taught in infants school that it was courteous to put the other person first.  So it is 'Ben and I' or 'Ben and me' according to the grammatical function.  'Ben and I' must be subject of the sentence, 'Ben and me' direct object, indirect object or after a preposition.  Prepositions take the oblique case.
Would you say 'They gave I an icy stare'?  No.  Therefore you do not say 'They gave Ben and I an icy stare', but 'They gave Ben and me an icy stare'.
I wince when I hear 'between you and I', not only because it is wrong, but it is said by pretentious people trying to sound knowledgeable.  You + I = we.  You + me = us.  Between we?  Never.
If you are a writer and have not mastered grammar, think of being operated on by a surgeon who has not mastered the use of forceps or a scalpel.
Hugs
Nigel

--
You need also to consider narrative vs dialogue. Narration, be it by a narrator in third person voice, or by our hero in first person voice, must, in my view, be squeaky clean for grammar, syntax and the rest. If that fails it interrupts the flow for the reader and makes many abandon ship. Dialogue is a different topic, because it depends on the character's own voice. A character may say, because he speaks that way "I and Bert are going..." or "Me and Bert are going..." Or "Bert and me are going..." when the pedantic version is "Bert and I are going...". The lapses into character vernacular are fine in dialogue.

The narrator must be particular in wot he rights. Wot he says is different.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71245 is a reply to message #71240] Sat, 12 March 2016 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matthew is currently offline  Matthew   United Kingdom

Toe is in the water

Registered: February 2015
Messages: 73



Thank you for all the responses and tips, it really is appreciated and i will try and take it on board

Although admittedly, reading what everyone has written, i'm glad that i'm doing this for a bit of fun and not for a living, i don't think i could do it for a living or professionally, i'm just not up to that kind of standard with grammar and i'm okay with that, well i would love to be better, but i will never be at that level.

Again cheers for all the advice and help, it's nice to be able to get some outside perspective and help.
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71252 is a reply to message #71244] Sun, 13 March 2016 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel   United Kingdom

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Location: England
Registered: November 2003
Messages: 1756



Probably anything inside quotation marks goes.
Hugs
Nigel



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: Need a little help with something  [message #71263 is a reply to message #71244] Thu, 17 March 2016 22:45 Go to previous message
WestcliffWriter is currently offline  WestcliffWriter   United Kingdom

Toe is in the water
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: May 2015
Messages: 74




Quote:
timmy wrote on Sat, 12 March 2016 17:45
"Nigel wrote on Sat, 12 March 2016 11:41"
Matthew, you are in danger of falling into a trap with 'Ben and me' (correct in this context).
I was taught in infants school that it was courteous to put the other person first.  So it is 'Ben and I' or 'Ben and me' according to the grammatical function.  'Ben and I' must be subject of the sentence, 'Ben and me' direct object, indirect object or after a preposition.  Prepositions take the oblique case.
Would you say 'They gave I an icy stare'?  No.  Therefore you do not say 'They gave Ben and I an icy stare', but 'They gave Ben and me an icy stare'.
I wince when I hear 'between you and I', not only because it is wrong, but it is said by pretentious people trying to sound knowledgeable.  You + I = we.  You + me = us.  Between we?  Never.
If you are a writer and have not mastered grammar, think of being operated on by a surgeon who has not mastered the use of forceps or a scalpel.
Hugs
Nigel

--
You need also to consider narrative vs dialogue. Narration, be it by a narrator in third person voice, or by our hero in first person voice, must, in my view, be squeaky clean for grammar, syntax and the rest. If that fails it interrupts the flow for the reader and makes many abandon ship. Dialogue is a different topic, because it depends on the character's own voice. A character may say, because he speaks that way "I and Bert are going..." or "Me and Bert are going..." Or "Bert and me are going..." when the pedantic version is "Bert and I are going...". The lapses into character vernacular are fine in dialogue.

The narrator must be particular in wot he rights. Wot he says is different.

--

Yeah agree with Timmy here. If you try and force the proper narrated etiquette in with your dialog your characters will likely sound stiff or decedents of the British Monarchy. Which ain't a good look for scuffy Jack and his teen conies bowlin' round East London smoking a joint!

"Oh yes Benjamin and I had such a wonderful time at the movies, it was delightful."

"Yeah, me and me mate Ben went to the flicks and had a great time, we was wired man!"

Point is, it needs to fit who is talking and some of the Chavs where I live would not dream of saying you and I!

 
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