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We Could Be Heroes  [message #76070] Mon, 21 October 2019 15:56 Go to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Thanks to Timmy's hard work, We Could Be Heroes began to post today, and I've already had questions about the connection to A Friend of the Devil. This latest is Volume 2 in the larger tale titled Revelation and Redemption, and pickups right up where Volume 1 left off. For those concerned about continuity...and the march to Jackson's eighteenth birthday...not to worry!
A number of questions were raised along the way in the Forum and by email about the propriety of a main character being underage. My first comment is simply that Age of Consent is arbitrary, and in the USA ranges from 16 to 18, depending on the state. My second comment is that the tensioin this reality sets up is part of the overall tension in the story. Had the seetting been only 45 miles north in Washington state where the age of consent is 17, then it would have been a legal non-issue, but still an equally potent one in terms of propriety and conscience.
Finally, there's no escaping the significant religious themes, and that comes with the territory: David is a minister struggling with the challenges and implications of religious doctrine on his identity and relationship. Most people, in my experience, avoid such things until it is forced on them. These two characters choose to take the challenge head on, and that's to their credit. 
I hope you enjoy the story and benefit from reading it. All comments and questions are welcome!

[Updated on: Tue, 22 October 2019 16:17] by Moderator




Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76072 is a reply to message #76070] Mon, 21 October 2019 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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Personally, I couldn't be happier to see this story continue and expand the themes from the first part.

Having lived through that period of US history, having been raised as Mormon, then became an atheist, I am keenly aware of the difficulties that religion plays upon one's emotions and inner being. More especially as it plays about the (still) puritanical society we live(d) in.

Given the "coming out" and the express warning that Susan ansd Elaine have given to David and Jacjson, to will be interesting to see if this thread is expanded upon.

We also have Gary to contend with. Gary may be many things, but he is not dumb or stupid. It has already been foreshadowed that there will be a confrontation. How that evolves (who Gary confronts first) will have a major impact upon David and Jackson's relationship. The thing to remember is that Gary was sexually abused by Bud. Gary intentially suffered contued abuse so as to protect his brother from abuse. Despite the ensuing bullying of Jackson, Gary is extremely protective of his brother.

We can't forget the opening paragraphs of this first chapter. At some point, I suspect that David will need to fight some of his own dragons when he hears the lecture and talks with Prof. Higgins.

But enough of my ramblings... Thank you Bensiamin for continuing this story.
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76079 is a reply to message #76072] Tue, 22 October 2019 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Al N.;

Thanks for the supporting comments and your continued interest in this saga.

Your use of the term "puritanical" touches precisely on the point I was trying make about religion as it operates in America, and a good part of both stories focuses on trying to unpack what that means and what the personal and societal implications are. I should add about the age of consent subject, that what I said about it being somewhat arbitrary (varying by country and by state in the USA), is not to dismiss personal responsibility or age appropriate behavior for one second. Those, in fact, are two themes that David has to struggle with mightily.

You ask some very good questioins about the characters...and we'll see how they get answered as the story plays out.

Bensiamin



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76080 is a reply to message #76070] Tue, 22 October 2019 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
luvtwinks is currently offline  luvtwinks   United States

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I liked how Jackson and David agreed to do honest "before" and "after" identity charts. It was interesting to see how Jackson's perceptions of himself changed in the few months since they met. I'm interested in eventually seeing how David's charts turn out.
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76081 is a reply to message #76070] Tue, 22 October 2019 23:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
American_Alex   United States

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For those who are not familiar with the Presbyterian church, I knew an ordained Presbyterian minister who was defrocked when she went public about her sexuality, and that was 20 years after the period this story is set in. I'm not certain if they are any different today, in fact.

As for the title, I assume their taste in music will change in new story. I doubt anybody who listened to the dreck they did in the last story would be interested in Bowie. A few years ago I was working on a story with the same title, but my story was set in Berlin in 1961. Never found the time to get past chapter 1, though, and once the 50th anniverary of the wall I felt I missed the right time.



"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76085 is a reply to message #76080] Wed, 23 October 2019 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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LuvTwinks;

Hold on! All I can say at this point is that they agreed to do those charts for each other.

Bensiamin



Bensiamin
icon10.gif Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76086 is a reply to message #76081] Wed, 23 October 2019 22:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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American Alex;

For the Presbyterian Church and most other Protestant denominations, the formal doctrinal position has changed...out of social necessity. However, there's a difference between that and actual acceptance, let alone empowerment. There is a great Wikipedia page on different church positions. Here's the intro to for the Presbyterian Church USA: "The Presbyterian Church USA is currently the only Presbyterian Denomination in the United States that allows same-sex marriage, and ordains openly LGBT members in committed relationships as teaching elders (clergy), and ruling elders (elders elected to serve on the Session)." Note ordained ministers are not included. It was approved at a Genearl Assembly in 2010, but the revolt and blowback was so severe it was rescinded.

The Wikipedia page is at this link:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominati onal_positions_on_homosexuality
It is rather eye-opening to see how broad the opposition still is outside the evangelicals that get all the press about it.

Good to hear you don't have a strong opinion about music from the period! :lol:

Bensiamin



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76097 is a reply to message #76070] Fri, 25 October 2019 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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Having now read chapter 3, I must say I am slightly amazed.

Gary's "confrontation" with Jackson was entirely unexpected by me. In my own minds eye, I had seen Gary confront David, with the ending being that David had better not hurt his brother. An altrnative was much the same, but with Gary confronting both Jackson and David together but with the same end message.

So the way Gary actually did was both tender and scary. Tender because Gary is not just allowing Jackson to be who he is, but giving his blessing. Scary because both he and Lois see what David and Jackson mean to each other. And that presents a problem for our couple, which has not been addressed... at least in this chapter. At first blush, it appears that neither David or Jackson have given any thought that (at least) two other people have figured them out.

As for the final scene, Hell! If initial anal intercourse gave David a hair trigger, it may be even more fun to see how it is with Jackson in the perverbial driver seat! LOL!!

With that out of the way, it was a pleasure to see the tables turned on David. With the lecture and subsequent lunch with Prof. Higgins, it was nice to see the (almost) unflappable David break into emotional stress with Jackson. Completely understandable, mind you, but encouraging nonetheless. To see Jackson as the comforter this time around, shows his own emotional maturity.
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76101 is a reply to message #76097] Sat, 26 October 2019 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
American_Alex   United States

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As to the Bowie album in the story: I'm surprised that the friend of David didn't bring back the German version of the album, "Helden", in which he sings in german. I have this album, as well as a Gabriel german album that I bought in West Berlin back in 1979. I'm not certain which came out first, but I think the english album probably came out in London before it was available in Berlin. Also, it's intersting how the author mentioned Tony Visconti's production, but never mentioned Brian Eno's and Iggy's input to the song, nor most importantly, Robert Fripp's incredible guitarwork on the piece. He still performs it today in his concerts.



"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76103 is a reply to message #76101] Sat, 26 October 2019 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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American_Alex: good comments, and interesting additional info on the music and musicians. The answer to the question is that none of them speak German, and for them (Paul, and by extension then David and Jackson) it's about the "story" of the composition...lovers separated, lovers being united...rather than the composition or the musical execution. Maybe that becomes more important over time as they become more familiar with the composition. Remember, this came out of the blue, and neither of them are Bowie fans at the time the album comes into their lives.



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76143 is a reply to message #76097] Sun, 03 November 2019 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Al N- thank for your comments, that I'm late responding to. I'm pleased you found yourself amazed at the end of chapter 3! That means I did better than I hoped and fortuitously created a real surprise in the family developments where an outbreak might have happened. At the risk of giving too much away, I'll only say: remember the title of the overall story is "Revelation and Redemption," and perhaps David isn't the only one being redeemed!
 
Your point about both of our heroes not having "given any thought that (at least) two other people have figured them out," is well taken. Both of these guys have admitted to being less than emotionally connected, and working at it, but getting to the point of emotional integration is a sizeable piece of work. How soon will each get themselves sorted vs. blissfully cruising along? We'll have to see!
 
I'm also encouraged that you found the first breakdown scene with the "almost unflappable" Rev. Ayers both believable and understandable, which I take to mean, real in the sense that sooner or later we all have to come to grips with our own deficiencies and shortcomings...including those who's vocations put them in the position of being in charge and in control. We'll have to see how far and how deep those self-realizations go.
 
I'm also somewhat surprised that there have been no comments about the tribalism content of the Higgins lecture and the relationship of tribalism to religion. Perhaps it is too painful...or too true...for readers to comment on.
 
Again, thanks for the comments. And thanks to all for reading!




Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76150 is a reply to message #76143] Tue, 05 November 2019 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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I pretty well understood the Tribalism references. Enough so that I did not want to get into any arguments over the progressive left's conscripting of the meaning into the political stance that has been taken (over the past few years). Chapter 4 seems to put the nail into that coffin. At least to me it does.

I don't know how other readers are taking these strolls through the philosophical debates of mythos. I find them quite appropriate to the story, as the Good Reverand grows into (discovers?) his own identity. A self that had been stunted by the wider environment coupled by the home environment in which he grew up.

It would seem to me, that constantly moving from place to place, does not allow those "roots" that are required for the tribe to affect one. Add to that growing up in a loveless home (emotional negative), deprives the person of any sense of self-worth. The act of trying to fit oneself into an essentially alien world, necessarily leads to one of two sexual extremes.

None of this however, answers the question of same-sex orientation versus Tribal Tradition (as opposed to mere tradition).
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76155 is a reply to message #76150] Wed, 06 November 2019 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Al N. - Your thoughtful comments are well taken, especially the contemporary political use of "tribalism" versus the academic usage. It's much the same as the all to common understanding of "myth" as something that is necessarily false and fictional versus the academic understanding. Your engagement with the mythology is encouraging, knowing it is kind of heavy and not for everyone...thought it does underlie everyone's world view whether they know it or not!

You raise some telling points about the impacts on the Good Reverend of frequent moves, etc. It's much like the Military Kid syndrome of never being able to put down roots, and then having to compensate in many different ways. I love your question about Tribal Tradition versus mere tradition and how it relates to same-sex orientation. Chapter 6 posted today, and that subject is kind of approached in one of the dialogues!



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76161 is a reply to message #76155] Thu, 07 November 2019 05:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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Chapter 6, was a lovely read.

I highly suspect that Roger Talbut is going to be a major thorn. I hope that Paster Dave will take his threat seriously, before SHTF.

The discussions between Lilly and the Rev and then the Rev and Jackson went right to the point. Coming to closure with the dying is never easy. When it is your mother, it is at best, difficult. One of the things I don't believe you actually touched upon is the aspect of absolution. In circumstances that we find Lilly, Jackson and Gary in, the aspects of absolution and redemption encompass all the players.

We have all fallen short, in our own eyes and the eyes of our parents and siblings. Hence we seek absolution from them, so that we may grant redemption in return. At least, that's the theory. In the case of my own mother, all of her children (six of us) where able to do this before she passed.

The support that our lovebirds are getting from Susan and Ellen... well I've already mentioned (in email) how much I like those two. Then there is Will. He is becoming a friend to treasure.

Finally, I may be reading too much into this, but whatever is happening with/to Josh is not serious. I just have a feeling...
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76165 is a reply to message #76070] Fri, 08 November 2019 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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Quote:
"The function of ritual, as I understand it, is to give form to human life, not in the way of a mere surface arrangement, but in depth."


Unless I am misunderstanding the above (from chapter 7), I would disagree. The function of ritual is to give stability to the tribe.

Regardless, I will not give any spoilers on this chapter, as I don't suspect many have read it yet, other than to say... hellofa chapter end!
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76168 is a reply to message #76161] Fri, 08 November 2019 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Al N - you are perceptive as ever, and correct that absolution isn't well developed in the story. It is approached, that that's as far as it went. Why? Because in the usual understanding of absolution, it occurs in a hierarchal structure (usually, but not always!), by which I mean the one absolving is above the one receiving the absolution for the act or deed in view (parent/child, clergy/laity, etc.). In this case, the order is reversed. The one in need of absolution is Lilly, and the ones to do the absolving are Jackson and Gary. You can see that they're working on it, but they're not there yet as evidenced by their personal struggle about the details of her funeral.

She, has realized the need, and that's part of what she was trying to achieve in her final conversations with both boys, and even with Pastor Dave. Did she ask for forgiveness? Did she receive absolution? We don't know yet, but it seems that at this moment, the boys aren't there. The dilemma for those (espeically youth) who are in that position is that it is easy to say, "You're forgiven" in response to "I'm sorry." While the words may sound similar, the meaning is quite different than absolution--which requires a kind of maturity that can comprehend both the scope of the act for which absolution is being requested, as well as an understanding of how the person doing the asking found themself in that position, both of which enable the absolver to grant it as if the act never occurred. 

The boys are changing and maturing fast. They may yet get there!



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76169 is a reply to message #76165] Fri, 08 November 2019 22:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Al N; Right again-- Roger Talbot gives all the signs of being a thorn in David's side...and a few other places as well!
On you comment about "the function of ritual is to give stability to the tribe," I'd say yes...at the local level. Ritual works at many levels in our lives, from morning coffee to table grace to Sunday worship or the pledge of allegiance before civic meetings, etc.
Campbell is speaking about ritual at a pretty high level, and in a later book (remember, this is 1978 and David only has Campbell's first published book in hand) he develops it further. He starts by saying: "You have to go through your own tradition--the local--to get to the transcendent...level.

There you can see the different levels at which it works. He then goes on to say: "Ritual is simply myth enacted; by participating in a rite, you are participating directly in the myth."

In a fabulous anthology of his work titled "Pathways To Bliss" he describes what ritual accomplishes in the first of four statements about the function of myth: The Mystical. "To evoke in the individual a sense of grateful, affirmative awe before the monstrous mystery that is existence.  Not merely a reconciliation of consciousness to the preconditions of its own existence, but reconciliation with gratitude, with love, with recognition of the sweetness. Through the bitterness and pain, the primary experience at the core of life is a sweet, wonderful thing. This affirmative view comes pouring in on one through these terrific rites and myths."

That said, I'm thrilled you liked the end of Chapter 7.  Should be a an interesting conversation at dinner!



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76190 is a reply to message #76070] Thu, 14 November 2019 02:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Chapter 9 posted today, and I couldn't be happier with the timing, coming as it did shortly after Armistice/Veterans Day, and given that a significant part of it had to do with the Vietnam War, one with a significant loss of life, though nothing to measure up to WWI or WWII.

For the record, none of that part of the story is fantasy or fiction. The characters have been changed to protect the innocent, but all the facts, situations and combat are true.



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76191 is a reply to message #76070] Thu, 14 November 2019 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
luvtwinks is currently offline  luvtwinks   United States

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A cliffhanger ending to chapter 9! It'll be interesting to see how they handle it.
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76192 is a reply to message #76190] Thu, 14 November 2019 22:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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I was glad to see that the acts perpetrated upon Gary were finally addressed... even if in an abbreviated form. Please don't get me wrong here. It is a story, and the sexual abuse of Gary is addressed. This is not a real counseling session, and must be addressed (within the story) briefly in order to move the plot lines along.

What many, if not most, people cannot understand is the shame that comes with the rape itself. That some have actually "enjoyed" the sex... to the point of climax is even less understood, both by the victim and our society. This includes both female and male rape, and more-so with repeated rape of the victim. Rape, in and of itself, is bad enough. But you cannot imagine the shame of being male and ejaculating because of the rape. That shame is aggravated by the abuser when noted. Regardless of the shame that the physical abuse leaves the victim with, the psychological harm is a great deal more.

Gary's situation with Lois is hardly unique among such victims.

Lucky for me, I went through enough counseling sessions (latter '80's through early '90's) that my experience with Vietnam is mostly on an even keel nowadays.

It is enough to say that the entire chapter brought back several unpleasant memories.

Then there is the cliff-hanger! I will be very interested in the opening dialogue in Chapter 10.
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76193 is a reply to message #76192] Thu, 14 November 2019 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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The site has resources on this topic



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76238 is a reply to message #76070] Thu, 21 November 2019 08:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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From Chapter 12
Quote:
"... if Campbell is correct, then we've either as a society or civilization got to get to work on a new mythology or we're looking in fifty or a hundred years, at the kind of societal conflict that comes out of the cognitive dissonance that Prof. Higgins alluded to a few minutes ago."


We are currently sitting at 40 years into this stories future. Besides the various political/societal conflicts that are fairly obvious to one who grew up in the 1950's and 1960's, we can actually see several of the largest Christian denominations changing their mythos to encompass the geological and astrophysical sciences.

In plain words, the religious mythology is in a state of change. As it regards sexuality, that is also in flux.

Then we come to the part that I've sorta been waiting for: David's confrontation with his family (no other spoilers will be provided).
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76280 is a reply to message #76070] Tue, 26 November 2019 22:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
luvtwinks is currently offline  luvtwinks   United States

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Finally, after chapter 14 I get the song reference to the title of this volume. BTW I love the author's YouTube links to the songs. Brings back memories. I would have been four years younger than Jackson in the time period of this story, but close enough!
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76335 is a reply to message #76070] Mon, 02 December 2019 03:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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I must say, that I am quite surprised by the silence after Jackson sang Bob Dylan's "Gates of Eden." 

I don't know what to make of it: is everyone put off by the lyrics, or is everyone just not a Bob Dylan fan?

For those in the latter category, do you know of Bryan Ferry? He's an English singer and songwriter who was the front man for Roxy Music. His voice has been described as an "elegant, seductive croon." He also did an album of Dylan covers which includes a really great and smoothed out and mellower version of "Gates of Eden."

Perhaps those of you who appear to be hesitant would appreciate it, at: https://youtu.be/7HjEgVmWX2s

[Updated on: Mon, 02 December 2019 03:20]




Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76340 is a reply to message #76335] Mon, 02 December 2019 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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I've never enjoyed Dylan, but it doesn't hurt the story any



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Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76343 is a reply to message #76335] Mon, 02 December 2019 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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Dylan was (back in the day - don't care much for his new stuff) a master lyrics writer. I never much cared for his voice. Better singers gave us better interpretations of his songs and in better voices.

"Sound of Silence" (Paul Simon) was, and is, a classic. Yet along comes "Disturbed" and we get an entirely new interpretation of this classic. Much better in my opinion. This is how I view Dylan.

Regardless, none of the music you have placed in your story has been off-putting to me. It enhances the times of the story and the themes that are running through it. Thank you.

As for the lack of comment? I actually think that you have introduced philosophical and religious discussions that many find hard to digest. Nobody likes to have their personal reality challenged. That is what these concepts are doing.
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76347 is a reply to message #76343] Tue, 03 December 2019 04:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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My only defense is what Heraclitus said 2,500 years ago:

Change is the only constant in life!

To me it doesn't matter how you get to it, as long as you do!



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76352 is a reply to message #76070] Thu, 05 December 2019 06:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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Chapter 18! Great chapter.

The stuff about the Centurian was a good addition to the developing theology that sexuality really didn't matter.

As I read it (years and years ago), I had already come to the conclusion that this was not an ordinary servant (my bible does not use the term "slave"). A Roman Centurian is not going to ask for such a favor for a replaceable servant. This was a special person to the Centurian and could not be replaced.

It is also noted that in both Gospels (Mattew and Luke), the narration uses the term "Doulos", but the Centurian says it is his "pais". The first term does mean servant, but the second term is ambiguous and could mean child (among others).
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76353 is a reply to message #76352] Thu, 05 December 2019 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Good point Al N--especially the bit about a Roman Centurion doesn't go out of his way to ask an itinerant Jewish prophet for something like this on behalf of a replaceable slave!  

John Boswell in Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe describes one of four types of same-sex unions, that being "exploitation of males owned or controlled by other males was widespread." Besides being common to own a slave (pais) who had a sexual role in the life of the owner, it was also used as an act of aggression against defeated foes (he quotes Catallus, for instance) and then goes on to summarize that "Because such relationships were private and of no legal consequence, they are hard to identiy in the records; our main sources of information about them are casual references in fiction, poetry, graffiti, and so forth, all of which suggest that they were extremely common."

He then goes on to discuss "homosexual concubinage" and in that relationship pais is also used, but in a manner that describes a more intimate and emotional connection between the person and his owner.

All of which makes the point that back then there was sex in a wide variety of forms, and the Church tolerated and didn't condemn the societal norms until much later!



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76354 is a reply to message #76353] Thu, 05 December 2019 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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All of which goes back to my point that this servant was more to the Centurian than that of a mere slave or conquered people. No, there was something more going on here than was discribed in the Gospels.

Spencer is not at all dumb. I'm sure that if he wanted, there was enough exegesis of scripture at that time, he would find out about the disharmony of those passages in Mattew and Luke.

Regardless, I simply wanted to point out that there is another explanation for the Centurians actions, besides the obvious point of "Faith", which is all most people see in these passages.

Edited to add: For those of you that are still with this story, please try to remember that part of this story is a personal struggle with faith. Those of us that are gay and have been or still are Christian, these are our struggles today, just as much as they are the struggles of David Ayers in 1978.

[Updated on: Thu, 05 December 2019 22:26]

Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76355 is a reply to message #76354] Fri, 06 December 2019 00:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
American_Alex   United States

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"Al N. wrote on Thu, 05 December 2019 17:23"
All of which goes back to my point that this servant was more to the Centurian than that of a mere slave or conquered people. No, there was something more going on here than was discribed in the Gospels.

Spencer is not at all dumb. I'm sure that if he wanted, there was enough exegesis of scripture at that time, he would find out about the disharmony of those passages in Mattew and Luke.

...

--

It would be interesting to see what it said in the book of "Q-source" which is the book that Matthew, mark, and Luke are based on.



"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76360 is a reply to message #76355] Fri, 06 December 2019 06:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Touche, American Alex.

Is this a rhetorical question, or have you studied the Q-source so that you can illuminate us on the answer?



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76361 is a reply to message #76360] Fri, 06 December 2019 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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In as much as most readers, and probably most of those active on this forum, are not conversant with the esoteric details of New Testament studies (LOL!!) I decided to address the question raised directly.

Because significant similarities exist between the three Synoptic Gospels, a major question in New Testament studies is if one was dependent on the other. The standard solution to the Synoptic Problem supposes that Matthew and Luke made independent use not only of Mark but also of another source, now lost, called 'Q'. It is debated and another school contends the Mark and Luke are dependent upon Matthew. The point here is not to get into a debate of New Testament theories, but how the "Q question" might impact the subject of this thread, if at all.

There happens to be a single and very comprehensive web page on the topic by Donald Mader titled "The entimos pais of Matthew and Luke" for those interested, which can be linked to here.

Mader's summary:

1. Respecting the concensus of critical opinion, it is probable that Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10 are both drawn from the same original account; that Matthew's version better represents that original; and that the word pais was used in that account, with Matthew preserving the word while Luke substituted doulos.

2. The word pais, when used in the context of a close non-parental relationship such as that portrayed here ... could have conveyed to a first-century audience the implication of paederasty.

3. Not only could this account have been read as referring to a paederastic relationship, but the author of Luke, by substituting doulos for pais (thus affirming his understanding that the relationship was non-parental while using a less provocative word), and by adding the qualification that the boy was entimos, indicates that he understood it that way.

4. While it is presumed be that a deeply observant God-fearer would not practise paederasty, the possibility that this account does refer to paederasty cannot be eliminated for that reason. There were many levels of observance among God-fearers, and the details that imply that the centurion was an observant God-fearer are probably Luke's composition.

To now return to the point of the thread, and the assertion made by David in We Could Be Heroes, Mader states: THE MOST THAT CAN BE CLAIMED IS THAT A SEGMENT OF THE EARLY CHURCH OUT OF WHICH THE "Q" DOCUMENT AND MATTHEW AROSE, WAS NOT CONCERNED, AND BELIEVED THAT JESUS WAS NOT CONCERNED, WHEN CONFRONTED BY A RESONSIBLE, LOVING PAEDERASTIC RELATIONSHIP, BUT RATHER HELD IT SUBORDINATE TO QUESTIONS OF FAITH.

In other words, regardless of which (or any) Gospel theories you subscribe to, it doesn't matter--because the telling point is the last one, plus the fact that these passages were not edited out when the canon of the New Testament was complied.





Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76362 is a reply to message #76361] Fri, 06 December 2019 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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I shall question one thing only in this, which is the mistranslation of the Greek Τιμώ (I honour) to have the same meaning as the Latin Timeo (I fear).

My name is derived from τιμάω and θεός, not timeo and deus (there is no such name). My name is Timothy: Τιμόθεος.

One might fear one's deity.  More than likely one honours it.

I suspect it to be a mistranlastion of convenience, because fearing a deity gives the priesthood far more control of the populace

Of course the deity of the Old Testmanent was greatly to be feared, he was a right nasty bastard, but he was not written about in Greek back then

A more modern linguistic cockup is the television, which ought to be named the proculvison, but substituting tele for procul does  no one any harm, controls no-one,  whereas the priesthood appear, certainly in the Roman Catholic sect, fear and tremblig and comtrol

[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2019 10:08]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76379 is a reply to message #76362] Sun, 08 December 2019 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin   United States

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Timmy;

You are right to focus on "fear," as used in "god-fearer!" Mader is writing in tecnical terms (theologically and hermeneutically) and so it is a natural usage. Sadly, it goes without saying that throwing the term around so casually misses the pint that the Old Testament religon is based on fear, and too much of that carries through into the New Testament (thank you, St. Paul!), and then into the institutional Christian churches. Of course, fear is a necessay element in controlling people, so there you have it!



Bensiamin
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76380 is a reply to message #76379] Sun, 08 December 2019 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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"Bensiamin wrote on Sun, 08 December 2019 17:59"
Timmy;

You are right to focus on "fear," as used in "god-fearer!" Mader is writing in tecnical terms (theologically and hermeneutically) and so it is a natural usage. Sadly, it goes without saying that throwing the term around so casually misses the pint that the Old Testament religon is based on fear, and too much of that carries through into the New Testament (thank you, St. Paul!), and then into the institutional Christian churches. Of course, fear is a necessay element in controlling people, so there you have it!

--
Mader is, I  suggest, writing from a lack of knowledge of Greek, too. Thus his theology and his herneneutics are based on a mis-translationl and his technical terms are woefully inaccurate because of that.

I fear is Φοβάμαι, from which we have anglicised phobia.

I fear god is Φοβάμαι τον θεό, or possibly Φοβάμαι θεό if we remove the definite article.

How ironic that to be 'god fearing' is to be Theophobic

[Updated on: Sun, 08 December 2019 19:45]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76381 is a reply to message #76360] Sun, 08 December 2019 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
American_Alex   United States

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"Bensiamin wrote on Fri, 06 December 2019 01:31"
Touche, American Alex.

Is this a rhetorical question, or have you studied the Q-source so that you can illuminate us on the answer?

--

No, because the Q-source has been lost to the ages, probably in late antiquity. All we can glean from it is that the same basic stories appear in roughly similar places in 3 of the gospels. These 3 books were writen some 40+ years after the story happened, by people who didn't witness the events. Some book must've existed from the time, though.



"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76383 is a reply to message #76381] Sun, 08 December 2019 23:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy   United Kingdom

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"American_Alex wrote on Sun, 08 December 2019 23:01"
Some book must've existed from the time, though.

 
--
Why? This was a subversive radical sect. More likely that it was handed down by word of mouth. A text, if found, would have meant execution. 40 years later was enough time for relevant folk to be well dead.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76386 is a reply to message #76379] Mon, 09 December 2019 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Al N. is currently offline  Al N.   United States

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Fear has always been a major factor in controlling the masses. Now add in guilt, and you have a means to control for ages longer than any political control can conceive.

Ask the Roman Catholic Church. Fear + Guilt = Obedience

This has work for almost 2,000 years. Far longer and any modern political state has ever lasted.

Regardless, I like the way the book has ended. Jackson is growing up, even if that has been forced upon him (as it often is with the rest of us).
Re: We Could Be Heroes  [message #76387 is a reply to message #76362] Mon, 09 December 2019 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
cm is currently offline  cm   United Kingdom

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'teleblepon' would be an alternative all-Greek version to the all-Latin 'proculvision', of course.

...television is simply a hybrid word rather than a cock-up - like genocide, biathlon, bigamy....and, of course, homosexual
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